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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #58994

Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems?

From anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems?
Date 2017-05-10 16:04 +0000
Organization Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID <2017May10.180417@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References <13e6c647-fd9a-4d77-89e3-2cc977f3bd5b@googlegroups.com> <oevc0m$8cs$1@dont-email.me>

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Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> writes:
>Intel are introducing Control Flow Enforcement Technology 
>https://software.intel.com/sites/default/files/managed/4d/2a/control-flow-enforcement-technology-preview.pdf 
>that will kill return stack tricks like this. The OS folks at Microsoft 
>see this as a great way to stop at the hardware level a whole 
>significant class of stealth code.

The issue they are trying to prevent is return-oriented programming
(where the attacker implements a kind of direct-threaded code based on
code fragments ("gadgets"), each of which ends in a return (which
functions as NEXT; other indirect branches are also possible).  So
they want to ensure that returns only return to the caller, in
compliance with the original caller.

>It may even kill CATCH and THROW on hosted systems, since the "standard" 
>way of doing THROW usually subverts the usual CALL/RET pairs by 
>returning directly to the CATCH.

Lots of programming languages have features like THROW.  They cannot
kill that.  So they have "shadow stack management instructions" in
chapter 6 of the document to adjust the shadow stack to whatever is
necessary for THROW, return address tricks, whatever.  For Forth it
will probably be necessary to make the return address tricks more
explicit, however.

As for killing stuff, this is an optional feature that has to be
enabled.  Programs that don't have it enabled will work just as
before.  The issue is whether OSs and security software will allow
that such programs will be started.  I think the screw will be
tightened slowly.  E.g., at some point the user will get a warning and
will have to agree when first starting a program without that feature.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2017: http://www.euroforth.org/ef17/

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Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 08:21 -0700
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-10 16:39 +0100
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 08:46 -0700
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 16:04 +0000
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 04:22 -0500
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 10:35 +0100
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 05:08 -0500
          Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 03:51 -0700
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 07:02 -0500
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 11:55 -0400
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 09:32 -0500
          Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 11:56 -0500
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 12:20 -0500
              Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 12:31 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 15:50 -0500
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 16:49 +0000
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 12:04 -0700
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 01:08 -0700
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 09:13 +0100
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 01:48 -0700
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 09:59 +0100
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-12 14:20 +0000
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 17:01 -0700
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 22:18 -0700
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 03:09 -0700
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-13 21:07 +1000
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:20 +0000
          Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-14 11:59 +1000
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-14 09:21 -0500
              Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 10:43 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-14 18:35 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-15 07:11 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 04:35 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 03:54 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? mhx@iae.nl - 2017-05-15 04:07 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 06:23 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 06:53 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 09:18 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 22:44 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 04:16 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 02:00 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 02:43 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 05:08 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 12:11 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 05:24 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-17 07:35 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-17 14:59 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 13:30 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-15 11:09 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 21:17 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-15 07:13 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-16 10:24 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:13 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 12:26 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 01:58 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 16:45 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 12:04 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 10:02 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-26 07:46 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 13:53 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-26 10:14 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 10:16 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 08:59 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 11:27 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 10:19 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-26 20:20 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:38 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 14:06 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 22:00 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 17:06 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? hum9 <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 01:15 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-28 14:17 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-27 17:40 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-24 15:46 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 11:51 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 20:38 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 22:03 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 22:09 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-26 21:56 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-26 13:30 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 15:04 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-27 17:33 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-29 12:17 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? hum9 <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 00:33 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 14:53 +1000
                READ-FILE over-specified? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 21:28 +1000
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-27 13:11 +0000
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-29 13:47 +1000
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 09:44 +0200
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-28 13:41 +0000
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 19:59 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 09:42 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 09:53 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 04:53 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-16 12:32 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 12:35 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:48 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 18:23 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-17 04:33 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-17 12:29 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 10:28 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:43 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 16:34 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:41 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 16:14 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 03:05 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-18 16:33 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 12:43 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 04:01 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-18 15:41 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 11:58 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-18 22:57 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-17 00:32 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 15:53 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 05:29 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:00 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 12:27 -0400
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:16 +0000
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:55 +0000
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:25 +0000
          Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 07:49 -0700
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:59 +0000
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 12:22 +0000
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:19 +0000
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:23 -0700
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 00:10 -0700
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 09:35 +0000
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 00:54 -0700
      Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 08:47 +0000
        Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-15 11:53 +0000
          Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 13:03 +0000
            Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 07:06 -0700
              Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 07:14 -0700
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-14 21:58 -1000
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-15 11:23 +0000

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