Re: LLVM and Forth

From	Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: LLVM and Forth
Date	2017-04-06 05:24 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<20170406052411.31813b57@_> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <oc07kj$il8$1@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> <c7b0253d-7f8d-4eb7-a6f3-2a9b43f66509@googlegroups.com> <20170405004435.4706b792@_> <cdc8055a-160a-46e4-a466-e289edfe1e45@googlegroups.com> <e5a4671c-9847-4940-b089-d0c08260c175@googlegroups.com>

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On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 08:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 2:00:45 AM UTC-5, minf...@arcor.de
> wrote: ...

>> C and Assembler are well suited to shoot one's own foot. But that
>> does not imply that you have to protect the shootist. Forth is full
>> of unspecified corners as well. No reason for language talibanism.  
> 
> You miss an important distinction between C and assembler -- the
> ability to predict the actual instructions executed by the processor
> and the order in which they are  executed. One can look at assembly
> language code and predict exactly which machine instructions will be
> executed and in what order. That ability is gone with optimized C
> compilers which are given license to eliminate and/or reorder source
> code instructions during compilation. C is very different from
> assembly language in this sense. With Forth, because of its
> stack-based nature, I think the predictability of run-time execution
> of source code is much higher than it is for C, but perhaps I'm wrong
> on this point.
> 
> Incidentally, I always compile my Forth system, written in a mix of
> C++, C, and assembly language, at the lowest optimization level (-O0)
> for the C and C++ source files. The assembler of course has no
> optimization settings (of which I'm aware). The speed of my system is
> largely independent of the C/C++ compiler optimization anyway since
> the bulk of the dictionary is implemented in assembly code.
> 

Of course, you use -O0 with GCC specifically because doing so allows
you to "predict the actual instructions executed by the processor and
the order in which they are executed."  Correct?  So, if you can
disable assembly optimizations for C and the result is approximately
the expected one-to-one translation of C to assembly, does the
aforementioned important distinction between C and assembler actually
exist? ...


Rod Pemberton
-- 
All it takes for humanity to conquer the world's toughest problems
is to hope, to believe, to share, and to do, in cooperation.

Thread

LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-01 06:36 -0700
  Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-01 14:57 +0000
    Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-01 11:55 -0700
      Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-02 15:24 +0000
  Re: LLVM and Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 11:21 -0400
    Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-01 11:57 -0700
      Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-02 04:02 -0500
        Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-02 06:35 -0700
          Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-02 14:41 +0000
          Re: LLVM and Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-03 01:09 -0700
            Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-03 05:32 -0700
              Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-03 13:52 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-03 07:59 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-03 16:08 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-03 12:22 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-03 20:10 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-03 22:19 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-04 16:12 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-04-05 17:27 -0400
            Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-03 14:29 +0000
          Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-03 03:17 -0500
            Re: LLVM and Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-03 05:04 -0700
            Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-03 12:55 +0000
              Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-03 10:08 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-03 17:05 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-04 11:29 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-04 19:11 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-04 21:29 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-05 15:01 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-05 18:42 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-06 04:01 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-06 18:48 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-06 18:42 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-07 04:02 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 21:18 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 22:43 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 20:54 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-09 14:53 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 00:38 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-04-09 22:46 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-04-09 22:27 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 12:36 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-04-10 14:09 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 13:07 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-04-10 16:18 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-04-10 11:51 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 21:32 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-04-12 18:29 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-12 15:29 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-13 02:55 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 18:38 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-10 11:54 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-10 10:17 -0700
              Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-03 17:02 +0100
              Re: LLVM and Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-03 10:03 -0700
            Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-04 03:25 -0700
              Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-04 11:24 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-04 04:55 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-04 12:28 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-04 16:16 +0000
              Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-04 15:38 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-04 16:06 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-04 17:57 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-05 00:44 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-05 00:00 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-05 08:47 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-05 11:04 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth john <anon@example.com> - 2017-04-05 18:04 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-05 13:04 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-05 18:20 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-05 20:14 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-06 12:33 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-06 10:49 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-06 18:55 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-06 20:41 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-06 21:47 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-06 21:56 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-06 23:59 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-06 17:10 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-07 03:33 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 22:48 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-09 15:06 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 22:45 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-09 14:27 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 21:26 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-09 13:35 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-09 14:07 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-05 12:16 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-05 20:27 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-06 05:24 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-06 03:26 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-06 04:05 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-06 06:50 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-06 05:23 -0400
                Re: LLVM and Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-06 04:44 -0500
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-06 10:57 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth peter.m.falth@gmail.com - 2017-04-05 05:29 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-14 02:04 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-15 14:03 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-16 00:44 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth alex@rivadpm.com - 2017-04-16 05:53 -0700
                Re: LLVM and Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-16 15:43 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-16 22:27 +0000
                Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-18 02:45 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-18 18:26 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-20 19:51 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-20 19:08 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-20 20:42 +0200
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-20 20:29 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-20 20:48 +0100
                Re: LLVM and Forth "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-04-21 11:49 +0000
          Re: LLVM and Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-03 20:39 -0400
  Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-02 21:15 +0100
    Re: LLVM and Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-02 15:18 -0700
      Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-03 13:07 +0100
        Re: LLVM and Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-03 09:45 -0700
          Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-03 22:52 +0100
            Re: LLVM and Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-03 15:25 -0700
              Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-06 09:35 +0100
      Re: LLVM and Forth antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-04-06 01:36 +0000
        Re: LLVM and Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-05 22:00 -0700
          Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-06 09:52 +0100
        Re: LLVM and Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-06 20:15 -0700
    Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-03 05:20 -0700
      Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-03 17:11 +0100
  Re: LLVM and Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-06 17:43 +0100
    Re: LLVM and Forth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-04-06 10:53 -0700

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