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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #48319
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Is it sill FORTH ? |
| Date | 2016-06-18 13:28 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2016Jun18.152825@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <e4c6d624-0bd0-4d21-b6d5-ab43f87f88ad@googlegroups.com> <87r3bzo8vo.fsf@nightsong.com> <7723d6a9-ef5f-47e6-9407-61a76990de74@googlegroups.com> <87mvmno63f.fsf@nightsong.com> <0a11b381-06c0-4e3d-9cc3-410e8a6f0d9c@googlegroups.com> |
krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org writes:
>The original Starting Forth book by Leo Brodie gives an example similar to =
>the one posted by the OP. While the book says it is not recommended to do t=
>his, it also serves as an illustration of the ability provided by a program=
>mer to get at the internals of the system. Having used a system from those =
>days, it feels like the current Forth implementations, including mine, sacr=
>ificed some of that ability for the sake of efficiency, and also maybe for =
>use in more constrained domains.
While in general that is a valid concern (see below), I don't think it
is exemplified at all by this case. We can actually get at the
internals of constants, and on Gforth, SwiftForth, and VFX (not on
iForth) even in the way you expect in this case, and if it is in
read/write memory, change it. That changing it works differently from
the way you expect does not mean you cannot access the internals.
Forth has other ways to make the behaviour the way you expect (and
allow using >BODY on constante even on iForth), as mentioned several
times in this thread.
For the general issue, yes, some of the power of Forth derives from
being able to get at the internals, and unfortunately, that has not
been standardized; on the contrary, the move away from specifying
implementation details in Forth-94 has destandardized much of what we
had in that respect.
One case where Forth-94 actually got a standardized way of what we
used to do with implementation knowledge is "COMPILE,". In Forth-83,
where indirect threaded code was specified, we could use "," for
compiling a word, but by destandardizing ITC, we lost that, and
fortunately Mitch Bradley invented "COMPILE," to fill the resulting
hole.
Many other things for getting at the internals were not standardized,
and when one suggests standardizing something in this direction, a
typical vendor reaction is that the proposed words for this feature
are not needed because one can already do it with standard words in
the vendor's system (but in a non-standard way); as an example, look at
the discussion of DEFER@ and DEFER! in the X:deferred proposal.
Anyway, despite such resistances, we got TRAVERSE-WORDLIST NAME>STRING
NAME>INTERPRET NAME>COMPILE into Forth-2012. It's a start. If you
want more access to internals in a standard way, propose more words
along these lines; or alternatively, propose tighter behaviour for the
existing words. Both paths will be resisted, so you need good
arguments.
One argument is that Reflection is now a standard feature of many
programming languages. Not standardizing it leaves Forth at a
disadvantage compared to these languages in an area that used to be a
strength of Forth.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/
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Is it sill FORTH ? Marek Brunda <marekb@phoenics.org> - 2016-06-13 13:41 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? crc <charles.childers@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 13:57 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-13 15:18 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-13 15:34 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-13 15:37 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-13 15:45 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-13 15:54 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-06-14 01:41 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-13 16:48 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-14 03:24 -0500
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 02:53 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-06-14 01:53 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-13 17:25 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Marek Brunda <marekb@phoenics.org> - 2016-06-13 22:23 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 03:13 -0400
VALUE Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-06-14 09:17 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-14 03:51 -0500
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Marek Brunda <marekb@phoenics.org> - 2016-06-14 02:45 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-15 04:21 -0500
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 21:02 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-08-05 21:48 -1000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? missycurl@gmail.com - 2016-08-06 05:37 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 06:37 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-06 08:53 -0500
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 07:18 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 07:40 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-08-06 15:07 -1000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-06 19:14 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 10:38 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-08-07 20:57 -1000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@nothishetnet.nl> - 2016-08-08 22:20 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-08-08 12:14 -1000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-09 00:29 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-06 19:30 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 07:42 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-07 13:34 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-08-08 16:13 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-08-08 15:36 -0500
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-08-06 06:28 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-08-08 16:42 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-08-08 12:31 -1000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-08 16:38 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-08-08 22:49 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-08 23:43 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-08-08 22:16 -1000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-08-09 03:54 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 03:42 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Marek Brunda <marekb@phoenics.org> - 2016-06-14 04:58 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 05:04 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 19:22 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 05:22 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-06-14 12:41 +0000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 06:30 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-06-14 14:21 +0000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 13:21 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-06-14 17:45 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:55 -0500
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-13 16:38 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-13 16:41 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 03:54 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:14 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 13:24 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 11:03 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:42 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 13:28 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-14 13:42 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 14:47 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 19:37 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Marek Brunda <marekb@phoenics.org> - 2016-06-14 17:01 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Marek Brunda <marekb@phoenics.org> - 2016-06-14 17:06 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-06-15 07:57 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-06-15 16:12 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-15 03:20 -0500
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:20 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Marek Brunda <marekb@phoenics.org> - 2016-06-14 17:33 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 21:21 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-14 19:57 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 23:03 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-14 20:31 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? pahihu <pahihu@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 01:36 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-06-18 12:54 +0000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-06-18 13:28 +0000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-18 07:17 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-18 18:31 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-06-25 14:55 +0000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-25 19:58 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-18 21:14 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 19:32 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:13 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Marek Brunda <marekb@phoenics.org> - 2016-06-14 17:21 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:36 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-06-15 16:06 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-15 06:36 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-15 09:20 -0500
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-15 10:55 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:07 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-06-15 16:20 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-06-15 11:19 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-14 22:10 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 01:33 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 19:31 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-06-14 11:15 +0000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 05:02 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 01:44 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 08:31 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-15 17:10 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-08-05 01:09 +0000
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-14 00:55 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-06-14 16:15 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-15 15:43 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2016-06-15 17:03 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 22:36 -0400
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Mat <dambere@web.de> - 2016-06-26 04:14 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-06-26 14:50 +0200
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-26 18:58 -0700
Re: Is it sill FORTH ? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-06-26 22:41 -1000
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