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Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project

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On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 15:13:03 -0700 (PDT)
hughaguilar96@yahoo.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 8:03:45 PM UTC-7, Roger Levy wrote:
> > > Yes, that's the idea of being employed.  One accepts money in
> > > exchange for taking responsibility.  But if it's real
> > > responsibility for somebody else's business venture, then it
> > > should be real money.  Otherwise it combines the financial
> > > sacrifice of working for free with the headache of having a job.
> > > I could imagine doing that if there was a unique personal
> > > opportunity or cause to be served.  But it's hard to justify
> > > developing someone else's commercial product on such a basis.
> > 
> > Then don't apply, Paul.  
> > 
> > I accepted $2000 from a big vendor to spend a few weeks FT on some
> > graphics code.  It was fun and I got paid for it.  How many Forth
> > job offers are there on CLF?  2 including mine.  Get real.
> 
> C.L.F. is the obvious place for anybody who is seeking to hire a
> Forth programmer to post a help-wanted ad. This should be obvious to
> both programming shops hiring directly, and "head-hunters." I have
> been visiting C.L.F. since 2009, and I have never seen an ad for paid
> work prior to Roger's. I would have expected that there were no other
> ads, but Roger says that there was one other, so maybe it was more
> than 5 years ago. Two decades ago, the obvious place to find ads was
> the FIG website's employment section, but it was totally dead. It is
> extremely rare for anybody to be willing to pay actual money for
> Forth programming. Forth is generally considered to be a hobby ---
> offering to pay somebody to program in Forth is like offering to pay
> somebody to solve your Sudoku puzzles for you. Within this context,
> it seems rather unfair to criticize Roger for offering a low amount
> of money as compared to what is paid for real-world programming in
> real-world languages (C or assembly on micro-controllers, C++, Java,
> etc. on desk-top computers). 
> 
> I got paid $10/hr at Testra in the mid-1990s --- taking inflation
> into account, that is about $15/hr now, which is in the range that
> Roger is offering. I lived in my van, slept in the Wal-Mart parking
> lot, and took showers at the health-club. That is the way that it
> goes --- MFX is the best program that I've ever written --- I'm proud
> of my work, even though I didn't get rich. I had "real
> responsibility" --- I designed and wrote the entire thing myself ---
> I don't know how a person could claim to be a "programmer" and not do
> this (this is what "program" as a verb means). I'm one of the very
> few people on this planet who have ever made money programming Forth
> --- the fact that it was not much money is immaterial --- I think
> that most of the people criticizing Roger for offering too little
> money, have never actually made money at Forth (although they may
> make money at C, C++, or whatever), but are in fact just Forth
> hobbyists.

I think that programming language/tool is irrelevant. What
companies want is code that can be easily  maintained and
understood by anyone.

> 
> My experience after leaving Testra, is that nobody cared about my
> experience at Testra. In job interviews I would typically be told
> that Forth programming doesn't count as programming experience. I
> have been told that, because Forth doesn't have arrays or structs,
> this proves that I don't know what arrays or structs are. I have been
> told that, with my background in Forth, I would not be able to
> understand QuickBasic programs that involve files and data-structures
> and other high-falutin concepts (this was in the 1990s when a handful
> of people still clung to MS-DOS).

Ridiculous. Forth knowledge is much higher than any BASIC knowledge.
Heck I learned BASIC in 1983 when I was 14 year old no problem.

 Nobody showed any interest in
> actually hiring me as a programmer --- I think they called me in for
> the interview out of morbid curiosity, as they had never seen anybody
> claim to be a "Forth programmer" before --- somewhat like if they had
> advertised for a transportation engineer and had gotten a response
> from a bear who rode a bicycle in the circus.

I think that you didn't looked very far, or looked at wrong places.
True, I never seen someone asks for Forth job, but this is because
Forth *is too difficult to maintain and understand* not that it is
easy...

-- 
Manjaro all the way!
http://manjaro.org/

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Thread

[PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 12:52 -0700
  Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-02 01:37 +0200
    Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in pro all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-10-01 20:11 -0400
    Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 20:26 -0400
      Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 18:46 -0700
        Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 18:57 -0700
          Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 19:05 -0700
            Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 19:49 -0700
              Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 20:03 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 20:15 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 20:33 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 20:59 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 21:11 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-10-01 21:23 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 00:41 -0400
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-01 22:22 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-10-02 12:20 +0000
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-02 16:20 +0200
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 08:00 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-10-03 12:16 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 00:02 +0200
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 15:13 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 00:39 +0200
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 19:11 -0400
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 01:32 +0200
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 16:43 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 01:51 +0200
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 17:25 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 02:38 +0200
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 21:25 -0400
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-02 16:42 -0700
    Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-01 22:02 -1000
      Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 03:18 -0700
        Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 00:57 +0200
          Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 22:44 -0700
            Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-02 21:42 -1000
              Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-03 16:17 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-10-03 23:28 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-04 11:25 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-04 16:44 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-04 18:40 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-04 17:30 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2014-10-04 19:07 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-10-04 21:22 -0700
                Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-10-05 02:05 -0700
            Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 10:12 +0200
    Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 00:02 +0200
    Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2014-10-03 15:44 -0700
  Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 02:45 -0700
    Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 05:11 -0700
      Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 05:14 -0700
  Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-02 08:56 -0400
    Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 06:19 -0700
      Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-10-02 13:30 +0000
        Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 08:36 -0700
    Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-10-02 10:49 -0700
      Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-02 08:24 -1000
      Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-02 16:03 -0400
      Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-10-03 00:18 +0200

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