Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.albasani.net!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Melzzzzz Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: [PAID WORK] Looking for skilled Forth prograammer to assist in project Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2014 00:39:49 +0200 Organization: albasani.net Lines: 86 Message-ID: <20141003003949.7dc67d73@maxa-pc> References: <49ab1641-c622-4a66-91c2-e0b92dbf0aaf@googlegroups.com> <42d36c29-2390-4475-a1f8-e5f218b6c703@googlegroups.com> <7xy4szkzc8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <7x7g0j9odq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <26b559c3-f606-411d-a5c0-4d0514b01f3f@googlegroups.com> <8003649c-e6ab-427f-8124-9aafe2312817@googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.albasani.net KQq9E+F7FOVjVnP3c17/3RFLX6EFSdFg1Zaerh3EDrQ9k96TTDS3RPFMx76KhXXOwsKRaI50HNzxpbH2Ju87ag== NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 22:39:49 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: news.albasani.net; logging-data="8qucvRvsA50OJPr57vxrakfPOMIav5AKmunI+45lTtUrd/Swf74eKMVI2NCi2b8843MYM8VWWlvv88/d61Hg/eApoqza+BLaqpJbBe0Y3QhOhGx1VK2KO3jfAEMc80OJ"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@albasani.net" X-Newsreader: Claws Mail 3.10.1 (GTK+ 2.24.24; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Cancel-Lock: sha1:V4BD2NCkldsstfbckDWY8Td0Vdo= Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.forth:33658 On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 15:13:03 -0700 (PDT) hughaguilar96@yahoo.com wrote: > On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 8:03:45 PM UTC-7, Roger Levy wrote: > > > Yes, that's the idea of being employed. One accepts money in > > > exchange for taking responsibility. But if it's real > > > responsibility for somebody else's business venture, then it > > > should be real money. Otherwise it combines the financial > > > sacrifice of working for free with the headache of having a job. > > > I could imagine doing that if there was a unique personal > > > opportunity or cause to be served. But it's hard to justify > > > developing someone else's commercial product on such a basis. > > > > Then don't apply, Paul. > > > > I accepted $2000 from a big vendor to spend a few weeks FT on some > > graphics code. It was fun and I got paid for it. How many Forth > > job offers are there on CLF? 2 including mine. Get real. > > C.L.F. is the obvious place for anybody who is seeking to hire a > Forth programmer to post a help-wanted ad. This should be obvious to > both programming shops hiring directly, and "head-hunters." I have > been visiting C.L.F. since 2009, and I have never seen an ad for paid > work prior to Roger's. I would have expected that there were no other > ads, but Roger says that there was one other, so maybe it was more > than 5 years ago. Two decades ago, the obvious place to find ads was > the FIG website's employment section, but it was totally dead. It is > extremely rare for anybody to be willing to pay actual money for > Forth programming. Forth is generally considered to be a hobby --- > offering to pay somebody to program in Forth is like offering to pay > somebody to solve your Sudoku puzzles for you. Within this context, > it seems rather unfair to criticize Roger for offering a low amount > of money as compared to what is paid for real-world programming in > real-world languages (C or assembly on micro-controllers, C++, Java, > etc. on desk-top computers). > > I got paid $10/hr at Testra in the mid-1990s --- taking inflation > into account, that is about $15/hr now, which is in the range that > Roger is offering. I lived in my van, slept in the Wal-Mart parking > lot, and took showers at the health-club. That is the way that it > goes --- MFX is the best program that I've ever written --- I'm proud > of my work, even though I didn't get rich. I had "real > responsibility" --- I designed and wrote the entire thing myself --- > I don't know how a person could claim to be a "programmer" and not do > this (this is what "program" as a verb means). I'm one of the very > few people on this planet who have ever made money programming Forth > --- the fact that it was not much money is immaterial --- I think > that most of the people criticizing Roger for offering too little > money, have never actually made money at Forth (although they may > make money at C, C++, or whatever), but are in fact just Forth > hobbyists. I think that programming language/tool is irrelevant. What companies want is code that can be easily maintained and understood by anyone. > > My experience after leaving Testra, is that nobody cared about my > experience at Testra. In job interviews I would typically be told > that Forth programming doesn't count as programming experience. I > have been told that, because Forth doesn't have arrays or structs, > this proves that I don't know what arrays or structs are. I have been > told that, with my background in Forth, I would not be able to > understand QuickBasic programs that involve files and data-structures > and other high-falutin concepts (this was in the 1990s when a handful > of people still clung to MS-DOS). Ridiculous. Forth knowledge is much higher than any BASIC knowledge. Heck I learned BASIC in 1983 when I was 14 year old no problem. Nobody showed any interest in > actually hiring me as a programmer --- I think they called me in for > the interview out of morbid curiosity, as they had never seen anybody > claim to be a "Forth programmer" before --- somewhat like if they had > advertised for a transportation engineer and had gotten a response > from a bear who rode a bicycle in the circus. I think that you didn't looked very far, or looked at wrong places. True, I never seen someone asks for Forth job, but this is because Forth *is too difficult to maintain and understand* not that it is easy... -- Manjaro all the way! http://manjaro.org/