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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #15372
| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Function Points |
| Date | 2012-09-01 21:52 +0200 |
| Organization | 1&1 Internet AG |
| Message-ID | <2000935.ViCZX3HiHH@sunwukong.fritz.box> (permalink) |
| References | (10 earlier) <7xbohvy8pc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2012Aug30.160847@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <7xmx1cmg1t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2250796.QNINORRiYk@sunwukong.fritz.box> <7xwr0d8xab.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
Paul Rubin wrote:
> Leaving aside the tangent about subscript checking (which is a
> difficult problem in any language), remember the example I gave was
> about null
> pointers, not subscript errors. Java checks subscripts, but it also
> has
> null pointers and null pointer exceptions (NPE). ML and Haskell get
> rid of NPE by using option types instead of null pointers.
C somewhat has NPEs, too, through signals and setsigjmp. C's exception
handling is not really up to date ;-). Lisp-like languages always had a
NIL thing, which wasn't quite the same as a null pointer.
> Similarly for array subscripts: in FP style, one typically does array
> operations using higher-order functions like map and fold, eliminating
> quite a few potential subscript errors by simply getting rid of the
> subscripts.
Yes, that's generally a good idea to do it that way. In Forth, we use
"design patterns" like
( addr u ) bounds ?DO
I ...
<size> +LOOP
which aren't prone to off-by-one errors like C's
for(i=0; i<n; i++) {
...
}
statement (many people write "i<=n", because they count from 1..n, but
in fact, C counts from 0..n-1).
> There are of course places where subscripts are still
> needed, and those are subject to the usual hazards.
Of course. Either prove that the index always will match the bound or
check...
>>> [Balanced trees] let you ... traverse the keys in order.
>> In what order? Alphabetical order? Does that matter? Do you really
>> want all fruits from apples to bananas listed?
>
> Sure, that is very normal in query systems. Think of a bug tracker
> where you can view all the open bugs in order of newest first, most
> recently updated first, highest priority first, name of reporter
> (alphabetical), name of person assigned to fix the bug, etc. Most of
> those fields can be updated at any time.
Yes, but that are sorted indices, which remain sorted all the time, so
all you need is to have a insert and delete operation into them which
isn't costly.
Example: Forth's dictionary has a "newest first" order, not only in
search, but also when you list it with WORDS. So in Gforth, we keep the
linked list of all words as "index" into the dictionary. Access goes
through the hash, though. Such an index is quite compact (one cell per
item), and if you want to list all apples to bananas, you search for
apples and bananas in the hash, and then walk the "sorted by name" list
starting with apples until you match bananas.
You might use a B-tree or some similar data structure to keep these
indices sorted, but you don't actually use them to search for elements,
because the hash is faster.
> Why would I write them even once? There are highly tuned library
> implementations already, so I use those, and I do use them often.
Yes, in fact, usually, you treat such building blocks as given. In
Forth maybe not... so you may need to write them *once*.
> Yeah, that's something like what I ended up doing in the Python
> program
> I mentioned. It's good enough for the program's current workload, so
> fine. But I'd prefer to have been able to call a library routine that
> did the right thing even for large N.
Even when it's the wrong thing for small N? The small-N priority queue
has a very small constant overhead, and very small code size, so it is
better for small Ns than a binary heap.
> I've been wondering, for
> example, how Forth multitaskers handle event scheduling when there are
> a large number of tasks, and how many tasks the traditional systems
> typically
> ran. It certainly seems realistic to want to handle N>10000 in
> today's high concurrency systems.
The traditional Forth multitaskers ran on single-core systems. The one
I wrote for bigForth has two double-linked queues: active and sleeping,
so event scheduling (wake up a task) is a O(1) operation. Traditional
multitaskers are round-robin, so there is not much need for locks or
similar thoughts. If you want single core, but many tasks (each of
which does only a little thing and then goes to sleep again), the
traditional Forth multitasker is much better than POSIX threads, which
aren't all that lightweight.
> If you don't have to reschedule events after they've been added, it
> sounds best to use a traditional binary heap. Those are
> space-efficient
> and easy to implement. The Python library doc has a reasonable
> description of how they work ("theory" section at end):
>
> http://docs.python.org/library/heapq.html
Yes, they also have the nice property that you don't have to care about
their balance, only to reestablish the invariance. A heap is partially
sorted, i.e. you don't actually know where the largest element is, but
you always know where the smallest element is. Maybe I should write one
this evening, it's always useful to have such data structures at hand.
>> if your fixed time scale is less than the minimum delay..
>> With the "constant time scale per schedule bucket = minimum delay"
>> equation mentioned above, I'd be curious how that would look in Coq.
>
> I'm not sure I understand the problem, but it sounds like:
> 1) you want to have buckets of size h, which means that if there's
> an event at time t0, the next bucket starts at t1 for some
> t1 <= t0+h.
> 2) if the event at time t0 spawns a new event, the new event is
> at time t0+dt for some dt>=h.
>
> This doesn't sound terribly hard to formalize. Then, given dt>=h, you
> want to prove t0+dt>=t0+h, which should be trivial in any reasonable
> proof system. I don't yet know how to actually do anything like that
> in Coq, though.
Yes, I think it should not be hard to formalize, which is why I would be
courious how it looks in Coq.
> There is an article "The Seventeen Provers of the World" showing
> proofs that sqrt(2) is irrational in that many systems:
>
> http://www.cs.ru.nl/~freek/comparison/
Nice comparison.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/
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Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-21 21:43 -0700
Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-08-22 07:07 +0200
Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-22 03:35 -0500
Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 14:06 -0700
Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-23 14:50 +0000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-23 11:43 -0700
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-25 14:13 +0000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 10:12 -0700
Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 15:39 -0400
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 15:09 -0700
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 12:34 -1000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 16:43 -0700
Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 18:05 -0700
Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 20:34 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-26 03:24 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 22:44 -0700
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 21:19 -1000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 00:36 -0700
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 21:50 -1000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 01:08 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-26 23:20 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 19:33 -0700
Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-27 13:34 -0500
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-27 22:38 +0200
Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 02:45 -0500
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 18:14 -0700
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 18:24 -0700
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:22 +0000
Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 03:07 -0500
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-28 08:18 -0700
Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 12:15 -0500
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-28 23:05 -0700
Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-29 03:55 -0500
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-27 22:28 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 20:26 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-28 23:17 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 01:13 -0700
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 02:23 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 02:59 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 22:18 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 20:44 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-31 01:29 -0700
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-31 09:33 +0000
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 02:58 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 19:39 -0700
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:10 +0000
Re: Function Points gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 20:08 -0700
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-30 17:47 -1000
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-27 13:43 -1000
Re: Function Points "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 12:14 +0100
Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 05:12 -0700
Re: Function Points "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 15:52 +0100
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-26 13:09 +0000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 20:52 -0700
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:08 +0000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-30 10:43 -0700
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-30 08:25 -1000
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 22:42 +0200
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 01:23 -0400
Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-31 03:08 -0500
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 18:56 -0400
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 02:35 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-31 23:52 -0700
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:27 +0000
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:18 +0000
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 17:45 +0200
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 16:14 +0000
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 19:13 +0200
Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-09-02 03:19 -0500
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:18 -0400
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:04 +0200
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 04:02 -0400
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 17:40 +0200
Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 10:32 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 20:49 +0200
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:33 -0400
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 17:03 -0400
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 09:02 -1000
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:35 -0400
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 13:42 -1000
Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:54 -0700
Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-03 00:29 -0700
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:30 -0400
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 21:21 -1000
Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-03 10:37 -0700
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-04 07:14 +0000
Re: Function Points Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-09-03 21:12 +0200
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 17:32 -0400
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 17:51 -0400
Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 22:37 -0700
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-04 04:25 -0400
Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-04 07:35 -0700
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 02:13 -0400
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-04 20:18 -1000
Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 10:56 -0700
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 16:11 -0400
Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 14:07 -0700
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:27 -0400
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 00:52 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-02 16:28 -0700
Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:48 -0700
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 20:21 -0400
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 14:45 -1000
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:12 -0400
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 21:26 -1000
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:06 -0400
Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-31 03:29 -0700
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-31 10:35 +0000
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 18:49 -0400
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:49 +0000
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-01 08:36 -1000
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:11 -0400
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 01:58 +0200
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 17:54 +0200
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:19 -0400
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:05 +0200
Re: Function Points Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-08-31 23:10 +0200
Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-31 15:50 -1000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-01 10:31 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 21:52 +0200
Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:36 -0400
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-01 14:36 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:30 +0200
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 23:15 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-02 15:02 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 01:50 +0200
Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:57 -0700
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-03 23:11 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-04 14:30 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-04 10:14 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-04 22:10 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 00:19 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-06 17:48 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 12:01 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-06 22:02 +0200
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 14:19 -0700
Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-07 11:30 +0000
Re: Heap (was: Function Points) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-07 18:12 +0200
Re: Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-07 16:48 +0000
Re: Heap (was: Function Points) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-07 21:34 +0200
Re: Heap Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-09-07 22:04 +0100
Re: Heap anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 11:52 +0000
Re: Heap Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-08 22:48 +0200
Re: Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 12:11 +0000
priority queue (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-03 11:46 +0000
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 15:03 +0200
Re: Function Points mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-03 22:36 +0200
Re: Function Points mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-06 20:27 +0200
Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-09-02 04:00 -0500
Re: Function Points visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-09-03 10:40 -0700
Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 20:26 +0200
Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 11:49 -0400
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 09:16 -0700
Re: Function Points Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-08-28 22:46 +0000
Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-28 16:06 -0700
Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-28 20:50 -0400
Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-26 12:59 +0000
Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 22:24 -0700
Re: Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:02 -0700
Re: Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-25 14:57 +0000
Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-22 08:07 -0400
Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-22 08:12 -0700
Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-22 07:37 -0700
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