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Re: discharging caps

From Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: discharging caps
Date 2026-09-14 15:59 +1000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <11882gr$18ct6$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <1184r9p$7aof$1@dont-email.me> <118548r$1068i$2@paganini.bofh.team> <0sddal18ddtidnrvk91r173rrqrn8df51m@4ax.com> <1186fe5$n5t0$2@dont-email.me> <mosdal9l7tuij4t9jnsk05lu4okon2qqpk@4ax.com>

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On 14/09/2026 5:03 am, john larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2026 01:28:04 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 14/09/2026 12:50 am, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 Sep 2026 03:11:25 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek
>>> Hebisch) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/09/2026 7:10 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/9/26 17:32, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/09/2026 10:25 pm, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/9/26 12:44, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Sep 2026 09:51:57 -0000 (UTC), piglet
>>>>>>>>>>> <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/09/2026 5:56 am, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Sep 2026 03:09:41 +1000, Bill Sloman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/09/2026 1:00 am, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 17:35:24 +1000, Bill Sloman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/09/2026 4:52 am, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Sep 2026 19:33:35 +0100, chrisq
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <syseng@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/7/26 16:18, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose we have a box with some big caps inside, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example 0.2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> farads that run at about 200 volts. When AC power is off,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discharge them for several reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Putting, say, a 1K resistor across them dissipates 40 watts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 200 second time constant. It will take many tau before the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gets low enough for people to poke around inside.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ideal discharger would be a constant-current or even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant-power load, all the way down to zero volts. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be dumb,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not switched by some decision circuit or anything fancy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And of course we need several LEDs as warnings that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing is hot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What sort of design needs 0.2 Farad cap, at 200 volts ?. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working at that level, put in a cheap relay and a rated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heatsink
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wirewound resistor to dump the energy, when the power goes off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheap, and lossless as well. Motor drive inverters often have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> big resistors to brake the motor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lunatic Fringe Electronics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a 1500 amp laser driver.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The input to our box is DC, from an external power supply.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do want a circuit that's foolproof, that always discharges
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the caps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but doen't often go up in flames.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A resistor makes an exponential decay which could be a very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get down to safe levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But a resistor plus an inductor could give a critically damped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decay,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which would be quite a bit faster. I don't know enough about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the circuit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be prepared to try to work out how much inductance you'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you clearly can't be bothered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Won't be bothered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought the group might like a circuit design problem once
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while, a break from politics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you don't do circuit design, and this sort of question
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious why you don't.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The inductor suggestion is hilarious. Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's elementary circuit theory, which you should have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taught and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had to read about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you discharge a capacitor through a resistor, the voltage decays
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exponentially. If you put an inductor in series with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resistor the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage decay is a more complicated function of time. If you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chose the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resistance and the inductance to create a critically damped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circuit, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage across the capacitor will eventually decay more rapidly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you'd see with just the resistor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Try reading about Laplace transforms. That's a pretty hilarious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggestion to direct at you, but you are the butt of the joke.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, RLC circuits are no mystery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's funny about the suggestion is the size of the inductor it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which you haven't worked out. I spent a few minutes last night
>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out what I could buy off the shelf from element-14 (the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Australian
>>>>>>>>>>>>> branch of Newark) but their web-site has turned cranky in recent
>>>>>>>>>>>>> months.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The value of the inductance isn't fixed - that and the resistor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be chosen to get a critically damped LCR, and I figured that I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing with an inductor I could buy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You might end up with a non-progressively wound air-cored toroid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> With a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.2F capacitor the parallel capacitance of the inductor isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be an issue, and the winding resistance could be your damping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> resistor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4kJ is a fair bit of energy, but you can get copper quite hot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> before it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> explodes. It wouldn't stay hot for long.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven’t calculated what ballpark inductance might be required but
>>>>>>>>>>>> is air
>>>>>>>>>>>> core even feasible for that?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If it were about the size of a truck maybe.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You can estimate the inductance in your head. To discharge 0.2F in,
>>>>>>>>>>> say 100 seconds, you need 500 ohms. That would of course be the tau of
>>>>>>>>>>> an exponential decay. Adding an inductor would crisp that up.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> R*C = 100 seconds so we want L/R to be in that ballpark.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 100 seconds is a lot too long from a safety point of view
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So L is around 50,000 H.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you start at the wrong end.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Check Digikey for that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Critical damping happens when the expression for the impedance of
>>>>>>>>>> the series RLC has two identical roots. This happens when L = R^2C/4,
>>>>>>>>>> near enough, so L should be 12.5 kH.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You can vary both L and R. A much shorter time constant means a much
>>>>>>>>> smaller inductor
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I dug out my copy of Grover and thought about a 5H air-cored inductor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5H - a 1 sec time constant - would be practicable - but big. You'd
>>>>>>>>> need a great deal of copper wire to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It might be worth thinking about an iron-cored inductor. We are
>>>>>>>>> looking at a fairly slow event so the current induced in the iron
>>>>>>>>> would be just one more dissipation mode.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 0.5H might work. The time constant of 0.32 sec means that your 4kJ
>>>>>>>>> looks like 13kW while it is dissipating, but it would be being
>>>>>>>>> dissipated in what could be a fairly substantial resistor which
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't warm up much and would have time to cool off.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With the initial voltage 200V, it will need to briefly store just
>>>>>>>>>> short of 600 J. That doesn't look like a practical solution.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why not? Air-cored coils can store a lot of energy. If you put a lot
>>>>>>>>> of current through the turns the mechanical forces eventually rip them
>>>>>>>>> apart, but that's a very different regime.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because an air-core 12.5 kH inductor is *big*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I managed to work out, after an unfortunate slip of the mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 12.5KH is much bigger inductance than you would want or need. 100sec to
>>>>>>> discharge a capacitor is much too long.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5H and and 1sec makes much more sense but the air-cored inductor would
>>>>>>> still be impractically large.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A carbonyl iron core might work
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rf-microwave.com/resources/products_attachments/67aa26a4a6d8c.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> would need 16000 turns of 0.5mm OD copper wire to get to 5H. That's
>>>>>>> about 34 layers of wire about 2600 metres long, and the series
>>>>>>> resistance would be 230R, which is too high.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.5mm OD wire might work, but that's only 100 tuns per layer, and 160
>>>>>>> layers would over-fill the winding space.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A bigger core could accommodate more turns of thicker wire, but that
>>>>>>> supplier doesn't do one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An iron tape core would offer more nH per root turn. They are
>>>>>>> commercially available and in larger sizes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.transmart.net/current-transformer-cores.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but the web-site isn't all that transparent, and clearly aimed at
>>>>>>> sophisticated users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You ignore simple rule of thumb: energy is more efficiently stored
>>>>>> in air.  So to get energy storage needed for critical
>>>>>> damping you need inductor as big or bigger than air cored
>>>>>> inductor.  You need core because otherwise winding resistance
>>>>>> is likely be too big for critical damping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems that inductor with EI core with the following dimensions
>>>>>> could satisfy the needs:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surface of the central column: 200 cm^2.
>>>>>> Side of cental column: 14.14 cm.
>>>>>> Height of cental column: 21.21 cm.
>>>>>> Width of winding window: 7.07 cm.
>>>>>> Total height of core: 35.35 cm
>>>>>> Total width of core: 42.42 cm
>>>>>> Total volume of core: 16962.87 cm^3
>>>>>> Weight of the core: 129426.74 g
>>>>>> Air gap: 1cm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To get L = 5H needs 1727 turns.  I get 1.43 Ohm as winding resistance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I guess that if one really needed such an inductor it would
>>>>>> be practical.  But it is bulky.  I am not sure if it is bigger
>>>>>> than the capacitor bank, but I expect it to be heavier.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Which one of these specs represents the radius of the inductor? That
>>>>> would be a great help in visualizing it.
>>>>
>>>> Imagine rectangular box of dimensions 43x36x30 (all 3 in centimeters).
>>>
>>> Cool. I wouldn't need a resistor. 130 KG of iron and copper could
>>> absorb a lot of joules.
>>>
>>> The inductor was a great idea, Bill.
>>
>> Waldeck Hebisch may have designed an inductor, though he hasn't bothered
>> to post a link to the data sheet for the EI cores he has in mind, and
>> his claim that it needs an airgap isn't justified by any kind of argument.
>>
>> Toriodal cores made by winding iron tape (or thin strips of other
>> high-permeability ferromagnetic material) offer more microHenries per
>> turn,and saturate at higher magnetic fields that the ferrites he appears
>> to have in mind.
>>
>> At the moment using an inductor to speed up the discharge process is
>> looking like a bulky solution, but the capacitors you need to discharge
>> quickly aren't exactly surface mount parts either.
> 
> 130 KG is a lot of stuff.
> 
> Engineers benefit from quickly discounting designs that are orders of
> magnitude away from being sensible.

As I have pointed out in a new thread, you can allow the inductor to 
saturate at the start of the discharge process. That lets you get away 
with quite a bit less iron and copper.

Rejecting the approach too rapidly has blinded you to that particular 
option. You've compalined about people poisoning brain-storming sessions 
by being too sceptical too early, though here you are just being 
intellectually lazy.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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Thread

discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-07 08:18 -0700
  Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-07 17:20 +0100
    Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-07 09:58 -0700
      Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-07 19:51 +0100
      Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-08 10:27 -0400
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 08:16 -0700
        Re: discharging caps Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-09-08 15:44 +0000
          Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 09:35 -0700
  Re: discharging caps ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net> - 2026-09-07 12:26 -0400
    Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-07 10:00 -0700
      Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-07 19:32 +0100
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-07 15:38 -0700
      Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-08 07:41 +0000
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 07:57 -0700
          Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-08 15:23 +0000
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 09:38 -0700
              Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-09 10:33 +0000
                Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-11 11:54 +0100
                Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-11 11:01 +0000
                Re: discharging caps Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-09-11 13:59 +0000
  Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-08 04:28 +1000
    Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-07 11:59 -0700
  Re: discharging caps chrisq <syseng@gfsys.co.uk> - 2026-09-07 19:33 +0100
    Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-07 11:52 -0700
      Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-08 17:35 +1000
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 07:43 -0700
          Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 02:03 +1000
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-08 13:10 -0700
              Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 16:25 +1000
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 08:00 -0700
          Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 03:09 +1000
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-08 12:56 -0700
              Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 16:40 +1000
                Re: discharging caps piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2026-09-09 09:51 +0000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-09 03:44 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 20:57 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-09 14:25 +0200
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-10 00:12 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-09 07:59 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-10 02:27 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-09 10:42 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-10 17:43 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-10 07:10 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-11 00:58 +1000
                Re: discharging caps chrisq <syseng@gfsys.co.uk> - 2026-09-09 17:29 +0100
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-10 03:35 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-10 01:32 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-09 23:10 +0200
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-10 18:38 +1000
                Re: discharging caps antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-09-13 00:27 +0000
                Re: discharging caps Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-12 18:38 -0600
                Re: discharging caps antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-09-13 03:11 +0000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-13 07:50 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-13 09:14 -0600
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 02:18 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-13 10:28 -0600
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 01:28 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-13 12:03 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-13 23:54 +0100
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-13 17:12 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 16:05 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-14 08:21 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-15 18:28 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-15 10:23 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-16 18:39 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-16 03:21 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-16 21:16 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 15:59 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-14 08:22 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-15 18:31 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-12 17:59 -0700
                Re: discharging caps wmartin <wwm@wwmartin.net> - 2026-09-12 21:21 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-13 16:27 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-13 16:24 +1000
                Re: discharging caps antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-09-13 13:36 +0000
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 02:05 +1000
                Re: discharging caps John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2026-09-13 19:40 +0100
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-13 12:08 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 16:18 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-14 08:24 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-15 18:36 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 16:11 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-14 08:56 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-15 18:50 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-10 07:17 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-11 01:02 +1000
      Re: discharging caps chrisq <syseng@gfsys.co.uk> - 2026-09-08 11:19 +0100
        Re: discharging caps chrisq <syseng@gfsys.co.uk> - 2026-09-08 11:33 +0100
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 07:23 -0700
          Re: discharging caps chrisq <syseng@gfsys.co.uk> - 2026-09-08 16:28 +0100
            Re: discharging caps chrisq <syseng@gfsys.co.uk> - 2026-09-08 21:13 +0100
              Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-08 16:06 -0700
          Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 02:10 +1000
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-08 12:59 -0700
              Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 16:45 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-09 03:22 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 21:07 +1000
          Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-09 02:10 +1000
          Re: discharging caps Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-14 09:44 -0700
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-14 10:15 -0700
      Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-11 16:23 +1000
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-11 07:45 -0700
          Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-12 01:59 +1000
      Re: discharging caps Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> - 2026-09-17 07:19 +0000
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-17 07:46 -0700
          Re: discharging caps Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> - 2026-09-18 04:54 +0000
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-18 07:57 -0700
          Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-18 15:45 +1000
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-18 08:02 -0700
              Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-19 16:40 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-19 08:48 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-20 16:30 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-20 02:17 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-20 12:30 +0100
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-21 00:52 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-20 08:46 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-21 17:41 +1000
    Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-08 07:46 +0000
      Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 07:26 -0700
  Re: discharging caps Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> - 2026-09-07 21:18 +0200
    Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-07 12:36 -0700
      Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-07 22:26 +0100
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-07 15:14 -0700
          Re: discharging caps "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 20:06 -0400
            Re: discharging caps Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-09-07 19:30 -0700
              Re: discharging caps "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 23:40 -0400
                Re: discharging caps Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-09-07 22:04 -0700
          Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-08 08:45 +0100
            Re: discharging caps John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 11:59 +0100
              Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-08 12:30 +0100
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-08 07:34 -0700
              Re: discharging caps ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net> - 2026-09-08 12:55 -0400
              Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-13 08:15 +0100
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-13 07:41 -0700
                Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-13 17:45 +0100
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 03:53 +1000
                Re: discharging caps John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2026-09-13 19:28 +0100
                Re: discharging caps ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net> - 2026-09-13 17:16 -0400
              Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-14 10:20 -0400
                Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-14 15:41 +0100
  Re: discharging caps Carl <carl.ijamesXX@YYverizon.net> - 2026-09-07 21:10 -0400
  Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-08 10:37 -0400
  Re: discharging caps Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-09-08 22:14 -0700
  Re: discharging caps someone <2a59d59e3809f827ce709d3815e3950eef4a6a93af5557a93a7fdfba71460843@example.com> - 2026-09-09 17:45 +0000
    Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-09 11:40 -0700
    Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-10 09:55 +0100
      Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-10 07:20 -0700
        Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-11 16:32 +1000
          Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-11 07:46 -0700
        Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-11 17:08 +0100
          Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-11 14:28 -0700
            Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-12 16:24 +1000
              Re: discharging caps John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2026-09-12 10:49 +0100
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-13 01:09 +1000
              Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-12 07:54 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-13 01:20 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-12 09:12 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-13 02:53 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-12 12:43 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-13 16:37 +1000
  Re: discharging caps Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-09-09 15:15 -0700
    Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-10 12:25 +0100
      Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-10 13:09 +0100
        Re: discharging caps John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2026-09-10 14:10 +0100
          Re: discharging caps Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-09-10 11:05 -0700
          Re: discharging caps Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-09-10 19:12 +0000
  Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-13 14:52 -0400
    Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-13 12:17 -0700
      Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-14 16:25 +1000
      Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-14 10:15 -0400
      Re: discharging caps "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-17 19:53 -0400
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-17 19:15 -0700
          Re: discharging caps "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-17 23:50 -0400
          Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-18 15:58 +1000
            Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-18 07:26 -0700
              Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-19 16:26 +1000
            Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-20 11:25 -0400
              Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-20 08:42 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-21 17:54 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-21 10:09 -0700
                Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-21 08:59 -0400
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-21 08:02 -0700
                Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-21 13:00 -0400
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-21 10:12 -0700
                Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-22 10:12 -0400
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-22 08:25 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-23 03:55 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-22 17:36 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-23 16:18 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-23 09:05 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-24 16:36 +1000
                Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-24 08:11 -0400
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-24 07:26 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-25 00:52 +1000
                Re: discharging caps ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net> - 2026-09-24 18:40 -0400
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-24 16:22 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-25 16:50 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-25 07:26 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-26 01:32 +1000
                Re: discharging caps antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-09-26 03:12 +0000
                Re: discharging caps "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-26 00:38 -0400
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 07:08 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-27 01:07 +1000
                Re: discharging caps JM <sunaecoNoChoppedPork@gmail.com> - 2026-09-26 15:49 +0100
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-28 10:11 -0700
                Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-23 09:24 -0400
                Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-21 17:01 +0000
            Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-20 11:44 -0400
  Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-23 21:42 +0100
    Re: discharging caps Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-23 14:44 -0600
      Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-23 17:51 -0700
      Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-24 10:07 +0100
        Re: discharging caps Simon Simple <nothanks@nottoday.co.uk> - 2026-09-24 12:01 +0100
          Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-24 13:59 +0100
    Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-23 14:16 -0700
      Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-24 10:07 +0100
        Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-24 11:51 -0700
      Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-24 07:58 -0400
    Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-24 07:54 -0400
      Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-24 13:59 +0100
        Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-24 17:56 -0400
          Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-24 16:27 -0700
          Re: discharging caps liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-09-25 09:22 +0100
      Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-24 11:55 -0700
        Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-25 17:09 +1000
          Re: discharging caps Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-25 09:38 +0200
            Re: discharging caps John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2026-09-25 10:59 +0100
              Re: discharging caps Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-25 12:28 +0200
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-25 22:42 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-25 07:38 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-26 01:11 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-25 19:59 +0200
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-26 15:56 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 09:24 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-27 16:22 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-27 03:20 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-27 20:55 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-27 07:59 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-28 12:35 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-28 10:15 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-29 17:22 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 07:20 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-27 01:26 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-26 22:58 +0200
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-26 16:20 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-27 07:39 +0000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-27 03:29 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-27 13:50 +0000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-27 08:04 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-27 15:16 +0000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-27 08:29 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-09-28 06:38 +0000
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-28 17:34 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-09-28 10:17 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-29 17:09 +1000
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-28 12:54 +1000
                Re: discharging caps john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-09-27 20:14 -0700
                Re: discharging caps Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-09-28 16:58 +1000
                Re: discharging caps legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2026-09-26 10:25 -0400

csiph-web