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I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL (Re: NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance)

From Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm>
Newsgroups sci.logic, comp.lang.prolog, sci.physics
Subject I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL (Re: NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance)
Date 2026-08-02 00:47 +0200
Message-ID <114lt1j$qdjc$2@solani.org> (permalink)
References <113r42n$8g50$2@solani.org> <114cmmv$jmhc$2@solani.org> <114kh7q$ovdp$5@solani.org> <114knri$pjus$3@solani.org> <114kohb$pkdq$3@solani.org>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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Hi,

WebGPU and WebGL are two different things. I explained
that towards you already like 3-5 times.

 > Of course we can make a special texture to handle it.

You still don't understand that I am using WebGPU,
and not WebGL. WebGPU has three improvements,
that from your talking are missing in WebGL?

- It has compute shaders
- It has arrays
- It has structs
- What else?

I didn't use structs in my example, although Gemini
nearly forced me to use structs. But you could
use a struct with fields and some of these arrays

to represent a queue. But here in this example
that is open source, I only used flat arrays. I
nowhere needed to abuse textures to store something:

11.4 Giga Lips with a Budget Laptop
https://github.com/Jean-Luc-Picard-2021/gigabudget

You can study the source code, the arrays have
CUDA inspired binding annotations but are not
CUDA but rather WGSL:

Hack VM as a Compute Shader in WGSL
@group(0) @binding(0) var<storage, read> code: array<i32>;
@group(0) @binding(1) var<storage, read_write> state: array<i32>;
https://github.com/Jean-Luc-Picard-2021/gigabudget/blob/main/course/example63/boot.mjs

You can say whether a buffer is read, or read_write.
Buffers can be transfered from CPU to GPU, before
running commands, and transfered back from GPU to

CPU after running commands. The use case that
you find on GitHub uses both. Namely also fetching
results via a buffer, to then show them in

the HTML page. Shouldn't be much a problem to
run the example at home locally, all you need is
a HTTPS server. But the example is not yet queues,

but it already shows the foundation, which is WebGPU
with its language WGSL and not WebGL with its language
GLSL. These are two different things.

I explained that towards you already like 3-5 times.

Bye

Chris M. Thomasson schrieb:
 > On 8/1/2026 5:22 AM, Mild Shock wrote:
 >> Hi,
 >>
 >> As easy as queues and FIFO objects might
 >> sound. They don't like congestion. NACK for
 >> retransmission might double the Manhattan Distance:
 > [...]
 >
 > You are going to need a place to allocate nodes in the compute 
shader. Of course we can make a special texture to handle it. But, we 
need to strive to avoid a wait condition. I don't want a compute shader 
to spin. Yes, CAS can be used, but, try to make it be used as a "state 
machine", where the transitions from states are atomic. Try to avoid it 
making a loop, where we loop on failure.


Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> As easy as queues and FIFO objects might
> sound. They don't like congestion. NACK for
> retransmission might double the Manhattan Distance:
> 
> You have not only start
> S to end E communication:
> 
> +----E
> |
> |
> S
> 
> You might also have ACK or NACK
> from E or midpoints back to S:
> 
>     S'
>    +
>   +
> E'
> 
> Ok, I made that up, I have no idea what a flit is,
> when the author wrote this here:
> 
> "Packet flits are held in the FIFO which can
> be used to determine back pressure. Dropping flits
> in a NoC may not be possible since these
> architectures may not provide an end-to-end
> protocol for retransmission."
> 
> Routing Algorithms for 2D NoC Architectures
> http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/ee382c/research/2DRouting.pdf
> 
> Bye
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Looking at the floor plan of a NPU:
>>
>> Getting peak TOPS on a Ryzen AI 7 350 NPU
>> https://destevez.net/2026/05/getting-peak-tops-on-a-ryzen-ai-7-350-npu/
>>
>> It seems to me comms between tiles takes
>> at least Manhattan Distance or L1 Norm time,
>> if there is no comms congestion
>>
>> But how does a packet travel? This way:
>>
>> +----E
>> |
>> |
>> S
>>
>> Or this way, from start S to end E:
>>
>>     +-E
>>    +
>>   +
>> S
>>
>> And what does the chip do if there is
>> traffic congestion? Some papers are
>> here, possibly an old problem giving
>>
>> that processor "cubes" are nothing new.
>> But a "cube" would be 3D and not 2D.
>> This paper is old from 2007 or so:
>>
>> Routing Algorithms for 2D NoC Architectures
>> http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/ee382c/research/2DRouting.pdf
>>
>> Bye

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      Trivial balancing example for (int i=0; i<global_id; i++) (Re: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-23 08:55 +0200
        The Pixel Phone AI Experiment Song (Enqueue/dequeue need not be fast and can spinn ["fairness" questions]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-23 09:19 +0200
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      And, where did I talk about rockets? [Hint its about xAI's Grok] (Re: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-25 01:25 +0200
        Why forget something, that was never on my mind (Re: And, where did I talk about rockets? [Hint its about xAI's Grok]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-25 09:49 +0200
      Example Mandel Brot rendering [Faster with MIMD] (Was: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-25 09:56 +0200
  Potential Python Recovery: Free Threading [3.13 release] (Re: The Wuhan Virus that destroyed Python [ggml Manifesto]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-23 10:21 +0200
  The things XILINX braught to the AMD table (Re: The Wuhan Virus that destroyed Python [ggml Manifesto]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-23 18:48 +0200
    NVIDIA evacuated its Chinese market [Tau Scaling] (Re: The things XILINX braught to the AMD table) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-23 19:13 +0200
      Micro penis mother sung arias (Re: NVIDIA evacuated its Chinese market [Tau Scaling]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 14:40 +0200
        Micro penis brain is in constant hiatus (Re: Micro penis mother sung arias) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 15:27 +0200
          Ignoramus or Ignorabimus: I don't care [(Re: Micro penis brain is in constant hiatus (Re: Micro penis mother sung arias) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 15:35 +0200
            You are a moron, brainless putin payed (Re: Ignoramus or Ignorabimus: I don't care) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 18:01 +0200
              Yeah keep reading my posts, uninspired fool (Re: You are a moron, brainless putin payed) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 19:47 +0200
            Out of the blue accusation span 15 days [Empirical USENET study] (Re: Ignoramus or Ignorabimus: I don't care) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 20:27 +0200
            A brain desease of 20 days [Rossy Boy] (Re: Ignoramus or Ignorabimus: I don't care) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 18:41 +0200
              I didn't use a Ryzen Halo, whats wrong with you? (Re: A brain desease of 20 days [Rossy Boy]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 23:25 +0200
              Ignoramus / Ignorabimus Barometer: Almost 1 Month (Re: A brain desease of 20 days [Rossy Boy]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-03 00:07 +0200
      Re: NVIDIA evacuated its Chinese market [Tau Scaling] (Re: The things XILINX braught to the AMD table) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-28 14:17 +0200
      ASML stocks are plunging, bye bye dutchies (Re: NVIDIA evacuated its Chinese market [Tau Scaling]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-28 14:18 +0200
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    2008: 4 Blades + Tesla S1070 versus 2026: 1 AI Laptop (Re: Little Data Center on Your Palm [AI Laptops for 500 USD]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 18:15 +0200
  Hurry the blue bus doesnt stop indefinitely (Re: The Wuhan Virus that destroyed Python [ggml Manifesto]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 20:37 +0200
    Not SIMD, a MIMD design for NVIDIA Volta (Re: Hurry the blue bus doesnt stop indefinitely) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 20:58 +0200
      Could take 3-4 months find machine / browser (Re: Not SIMD, a MIMD design for NVIDIA Volta) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 21:16 +0200
      The Koan of pi-WAM queues [FORTRAN-S] (Re: Not SIMD, a MIMD design for NVIDIA Volta) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-26 19:54 +0200
        The turbo capping of AI Laptops (Was: The Koan of pi-WAM queues [FORTRAN-S]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-26 20:00 +0200
        Re: The Koan of pi-WAM queues [FORTRAN-S] (Re: Not SIMD, a MIMD design for NVIDIA Volta) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 09:16 +0200
        Why forget Bulgarians, never on my mind (Re: The Koan of pi-WAM queues [FORTRAN-S]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 09:16 +0200
          miniTriton CUDA is an alternative to torch variants (Re: Why forget Bulgarians, never on my mind) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 09:52 +0200
            Andrej Karpathy original gangster of Budget Laptop (Re: miniTriton CUDA is an alternative to torch variants) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 09:54 +0200
          The evolution of hardware and GPT-2 training (Re: Why forget Bulgarians, never on my mind) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 10:57 +0200
            How speed up π-WAM with vector operations (Re: The evolution of hardware and GPT-2 training) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 11:10 +0200
              AI accelerator extend from GPU to CPU [Zero Copying] (Re: How speed up π-WAM with vector operations) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 13:21 +0200
                The invention of vector and matrix registers [NVIDIA Volta] (Re: AI accelerator extend from GPU to CPU [Zero Copying]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 13:22 +0200
                Re: The invention of vector and matrix registers [NVIDIA Volta] (Re: AI accelerator extend from GPU to CPU [Zero Copying]) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-27 07:34 -0700
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                Re: The invention of vector and matrix registers [NVIDIA Volta] (Re: AI accelerator extend from GPU to CPU [Zero Copying]) R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.com> - 2026-07-27 15:43 +0000
                Re: The invention of vector and matrix registers [NVIDIA Volta] (Re: AI accelerator extend from GPU to CPU [Zero Copying]) R Kym Horsell <kymhorsell@gmail.com> - 2026-07-27 15:46 +0000
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                In Budget Laptops the TOPS come with low energy footprint (Re: π-WAM is not adding decimals, it is removing decimals) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 18:45 +0200
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        You are still chewing on SIMD. LoL (Re: Rossy Boy is neither Einstein nor Zweistein) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 17:12 +0200
          Hurry Rossy Boy, the blue bus is waiting (Re: You are still chewing on SIMD. LoL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 17:53 +0200
            Look how they advertized CUDA and logical threads (Re: Hurry Rossy Boy, the blue bus is waiting) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 17:55 +0200
              Forget any arithmetization of product FSA (Re: Look how they advertized CUDA and logical threads) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 17:58 +0200
          Rossy Boys tears could cool a data center [pi-WAM Interleaved Synchronized Emulator] (Re: You are still chewing on SIMD. LoL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 20:06 +0200
            I don't use Rust, you are crazy [Jump off a bridge, idiot] (Re: Rossy Boys tears could cool a data center [pi-WAM Interleaved Synchronized Emulator]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 20:25 +0200
              Hack ecosystem ignorance paired with paranoia [Nand to Tetris] (Re: I don't use Rust, you are crazy) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 22:52 +0200
                A funny Q16.16 experiment with Hack (Re: Hack ecosystem ignorance paired with paranoia [Nand to Tetris]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 23:11 +0200
                Summer Challenge: libSQL = Prolog+Modes [VDBE versus π-WAM] (Was: A funny Q16.16 experiment with Hack) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-30 11:25 +0200
                I wrote Hack VM for π-WAM from scratch [4 Months total JavaScript, Python and Java] (Re: Hack ecosystem ignorance paired with paranoia) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-30 19:37 +0200
                For WebGPU I first had SIMD in mind (Re: I wrote Hack VM for π-WAM from scratch) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-30 19:51 +0200
                Corr.: 4 Months --> 4 Weeks (Re: For WebGPU I first had SIMD in mind) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-30 20:05 +0200
                MIPS is a big Huffman mess [But Hack could do it] (Re: I wrote Hack VM for π-WAM from scratch) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-30 22:32 +0200
                Not declarative with PHI (Φ) nodes (Was: MIPS is a big Huffman mess [But Hack could do it]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-30 22:38 +0200
                Not declarative with PHI (Φ) nodes (Re: MIPS is a big Huffman mess [But Hack could do it]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-30 22:39 +0200
                Re: MIPS is a big Huffman mess [But Hack could do it] (Re: I wrote Hack VM for π-WAM from scratch) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-31 09:52 -0700
                Re: MIPS is a big Huffman mess [But Hack could do it] (Re: I wrote Hack VM for π-WAM from scratch) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-31 10:00 -0700
                Re: MIPS is a big Huffman mess [But Hack could do it] (Re: I wrote Hack VM for π-WAM from scratch) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-31 10:07 -0700
                Quo Vadis: Extend investigations to WebNN (Was: I wrote Hack VM for π-WAM from scratch [4 Months total JavaScript, Python and Java]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-31 20:43 +0200
              Standing on the shoulders of giants (Re: I don't use Rust, you are crazy [Jump off a bridge, idiot]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-04 03:19 +0200
                You Thief! Stealing Szemeredi, Aristotle, Leibniz, etc.. (Re: Standing on the shoulders of giants) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-04 15:19 +0200
                How Rossy Boys plagiarism works [Copy Paste Slop] (Re: You Thief! Stealing Szemeredi, Aristotle, Leibniz, etc.. ) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-04 17:58 +0200
                Statistics gave up, no salient truth [Signal Collapse] Re: How Rossy Boys plagiarism works [Copy Paste Slop] (Re: You Thief! Stealing Szemeredi, Aristotle, Leibniz, etc.. ) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-04 18:17 +0200
  Got it. Or are you too stupid? [New Usenet Mantra] (Was: The Wuhan Virus that destroyed Python [ggml Manifesto]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-27 18:59 +0200
  Lamas in a cradle and Lamas on the edge [Red Pyjama] (Re: The Wuhan Virus that destroyed Python [ggml Manifesto]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 13:03 +0200
    AI Accelerators and ISO Prolog multi-threading (Re: Lamas in a cradle and Lamas on the edge [Red Pyjama]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 17:02 +0200
      Actor/Erlang is dead, no Thread and Mailbox conflation [golang channels] (Re: AI Accelerators and ISO Prolog multi-threading) (Re: Lamas in a cradle and Lamas on the edge [Red Pyjama]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-29 17:04 +0200
        Can library(ironpaw) repurpose FFT hardware [Glimps into Ryzen AI 7 350] (Re: Actor/Erlang is dead, no Thread and Mailbox conflation ) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-01 02:32 +0200
    Tablet and phone UBS-C remote debugging (Re: Lamas in a cradle and Lamas on the edge [Red Pyjama]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-01 12:19 +0200
      NPUs doing 2d chess comms (Manhattan Distance or L1 Norm) (Re: Tablet and phone UBS-C remote debugging) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-01 14:12 +0200
        NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance (Re: NPUs doing 2d chess comms) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-01 14:24 +0200
          I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL (Re: NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 00:47 +0200
            Texture inside my compute shader makes no sense (Re: I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 02:40 +0200
              Prolog inferencing and not canvasing fancy stuff (Re: Texture inside my compute shader makes no sense) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 02:42 +0200
      Chris M. Thomasson can ask 100 more questions (Was: Tablet and phone UBS-C remote debugging) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 02:46 +0200
        npm install webgpu [Google Dawn] (Re: Chris M. Thomasson can ask 100 more questions) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 03:03 +0200
          GPU elasticity was already invented in 2008 with CUDA (Re: npm install webgpu [Google Dawn]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-03 00:01 +0200
  Even send_color and recv_color can block [Cerebras Waver] (Re: The Wuhan Virus that destroyed Python [ggml Manifesto]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 23:39 +0200

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