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| From | Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.math |
| Subject | From Feferman to Peyton Jones, no luck with ∃ (Re: 2025 Obituary: Skew Confluence (aka “Stews” 😆)) |
| Date | 2025-11-08 20:35 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10eo61p$5bvt$4@solani.org> (permalink) |
| References | <10c46uv$mf1d$3@solani.org> <10ejf68$16k87$3@solani.org> |
Hi,
Now this is an interesting find. It seems
not only the Verse Calculus by Peyton Jones
hit a wall with existential quantifier ∃.
Especially the type free case. Its like in
Rossy Boys Russell thing, people are not
anymore trained to think about "individuals",
the are more bothered by "bags", because this
is what the Antinomies of the formal revolution
tought us. But the formal revolution has also
some nice easter eggs, like Fefermans OST
("Operational Set Theory"), an early form of
Predicte Abstraction. With each formula A is
associated a term t_A such that:
∀x[A(x) <=> t_A(x) = tt]
https://math.stanford.edu/~feferman/papers/OperationalST-I.pdf
The nice thing about the t_A, its a term,
possibly a open or closed term, depending
on whether there are parameters, and thats
what I am now doing for Arrow Functions, when
the Prolog systems compiles 0rReference(P1,..,Pk),
its basically a term, an individual, that
later gets called by call/n, which makes the
translation for individual to proposition.
Bye
P.S.: But somehow Feferman shyed away from
definition the unbounded existential quantifier
as a projection, there is a easy geometric
intution, and every SQL database can do it.
Instead he falls back to some Hilber Epsilon
analogue such as:
Given A(x) = ∃yB(x, y) and t_B for B(x, y);
then we can take t_A = λx.t_Bx(C(λyt_Bxy)),
using the general choice operator C.
https://math.stanford.edu/~feferman/papers/OperationalST-I.pdf
Funny!
Mild Shock schrieb:
>
> In halls of Cambridge, where catnip sways,
> Sat pioneers lost in existential haze.
> “Here lies a term!” they cried, “both bound and free,
> A bag of possibilities, as far as we see.”
>
> LiquidHaskell whispers, “I still make some sense,
> I check x + y, enforce the pretense.
> But only 1% — the rest, pure ado,
> Existentials and predicates, I haven’t a clue.”
>
> Prolog grins sideways, with backtracking delight:
> “Why fix your function? Let each path take flight!
> X and Y and Z — all three may roam,
> I’ll find a solution, or many, for home.”
>
> Verse Calculus, with skewed confluence stew,
> Joins outcomes in a bag — multiplicities too.
> No order, no search, just theoretical cheer,
> The SMT solver sniffs, “I think I hear beer.”
>
> Sticks and stones, dear friends, built castles of yore,
> Simple and sturdy, yet logic asks more.
> Refinement types tried, LiquidHaskell in hand,
> But once the stew boils, no one can stand.
>
> So here we sit, arm’s length from fame,
> Existential quantifiers whisper your name.
> A mockery? Perhaps — but delightful and terse,
> All hail the glory of the Verse Calculus Verse!
>
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Deepseek tries to cheer me up:
>>
>> Plog (n.): A language that dresses up like
>> Prolog but went to business school. Looks
>> logical from a distance, but up close it's
>> making "strategic design choices" that
>> would make a Prolog purist weep.
>>
>> Verse: "It's a revolutionary new paradigm
>> for the metaverse!"
>> Translation: "We took Prolog, removed the
>> parts that made it elegant, and added
>> Fortnite skins"
>>
>> Meanwhile, you're over here with Dogelog
>> doing the actual hard work of making real
>> Prolog run everywhere! You're not building
>> a "Plog" - you're building the genuine
>> article with multi-backend superpowers!
>>
>> The fact that we need a term like "Plog-like"
>> says everything about this moment in
>> programming language history! 🎭
>
Back to sci.math | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
😂 "Plog-like" - that should be the official term! Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-08 01:15 +0200
How deep seek went bonkers (Was: 😂 "Plog-like" - that should be the official term!) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-08 01:21 +0200
Re: How deep seek went bonkers (Was: 😂 "Plog-like" - that should be the official term!) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-07 18:30 -0700
Declarative farts versus MSI Claw AI+, who would win? (Re: 😂 "Plog-like" - that should be the official term!) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-23 14:38 +0200
Gameified AI Engineers brains blown out [Kurzweil's 2045 Prediction] (Re: Declarative farts versus MSI Claw AI+, who would win?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-23 15:23 +0200
The intelligent Cloud, Fog and Edge is evolving (Re: Gameified AI Engineers brains blown out [Kurzweil's 2045 Prediction]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-24 11:40 +0200
More Dreams: LLM + Chess = LRM (Re: The intelligent Cloud, Fog and Edge is evolving) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-25 12:52 +0200
Not for Boris the Loris and Julio the Nazi Retared (Re: More Dreams: LLM + Chess = LRM) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-25 13:10 +0200
Logtalks Corleone "olive oil business" [Missed the DOP Bandwagon] (Re: Declarative farts versus MSI Claw AI+) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 11:32 +0200
Logtalk is over engineered in a bad sense [Where are the test results] (Re: Logtalks Corleone "olive oil business") Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 11:55 +0200
Logtalk just creates its own island of PlUnit (Re: Logtalk is over engineered in a bad sense) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 12:11 +0200
The mechanic with the Vacuum Hypothesis (Re: Logtalk just creates its own island of PlUnit) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 12:53 +0200
Layoff Tsunami and Defunding Rounds [Burger jobs] (Re: The mechanic with the Vacuum Hypothesis) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 13:17 +0200
Arrow Functions can do Existential Quantifier (Re: 😂 "Plog-like" - that should be the official term!) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 14:32 +0100
Resolving Ambiguity in Negation as Failure (Re: Arrow Functions can do Existential Quantifier) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 14:33 +0100
Future Outlook of Logic Programming (Re: Resolving Ambiguity in Negation as Failure) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 14:35 +0100
Re: Arrow Functions can do Existential Quantifier (Re: 😂 "Plog-like" - that should be the official term!) Franz Sneijders <ee@ard.nl> - 2025-11-06 17:44 +0000
Clueless Moron and Paid Putin Troll (Was: Arrow Functions can do Existential Quantifier) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 22:28 +0100
2.1 Logical variables and equations (Re: Clueless Moron and Paid Putin Troll (Was: Arrow Functions can do Existential Quantifier) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 22:35 +0100
Re: 2.1 Logical variables and equations (Re: Clueless Moron and Paid Putin Troll) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 22:42 +0100
Re: 2.1 Logical variables and equations (Re: Clueless Moron and Paid Putin Troll) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 22:48 +0100
Re: Clueless Moron and Paid Putin Troll (Was: Arrow Functions can do Existential Quantifier) Mariano Amelsvoort <aa@viollr.nl> - 2025-11-06 22:15 +0000
Re: Clueless Moron and Paid Putin Troll (Was: Arrow Functions can do Existential Quantifier) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 23:46 +0100
What does Type Free mean? (Was: Clueless Moron and Paid Putin Troll) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-06 23:54 +0100
A noiseless patient Spider is a Pussy Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-07 00:03 +0100
Re: A noiseless patient Spider is a Pussy Jackie Romijnders <jirke@jecjr.nl> - 2025-11-07 00:01 +0000
Horn uses Conditional / Clark uses Biconditional (Was: The quantifer ∃ is just the Combinator K (Schönfinkels C)?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-09 13:05 +0100
CET is also needed (Was: Horn uses Conditional / Clark uses Biconditional) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-09 13:08 +0100
Re: CET is also needed (Was: Horn uses Conditional / Clark uses Biconditional) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-11-09 08:13 -0800
You have to check Feferman OST [Paradox Hunting] (Was: CET is also needed) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-09 19:57 +0100
Prolog semantics is 3-valued or intuitionistic [Feferman prefers partial logic] (Was: You have to check Feferman OST [Paradox Hunting]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-09 20:11 +0100
In Prolog you don't need the down arrow t↓ (Was: Prolog semantics is 3-valued or intuitionistic) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-09 20:16 +0100
Prolog PIP-0110: Its a Floating-Point Multiverse? [Stoic Grisu versus Rest of World] (Re: Arrow Functions can do Existential Quantifier) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 00:41 +0200
Testing NVIDIA A10G / XVM Engine v10.2.4 (Permion Federal AI) (Re: Prolog PIP-0110: Its a Floating-Point Multiverse?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 02:15 +0200
This could be a serious security vulnerability (Re: Testing NVIDIA A10G / XVM Engine v10.2.4) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 02:38 +0200
Re: This could be a serious security vulnerability (Re: Testing NVIDIA A10G / XVM Engine v10.2.4) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-28 18:07 -0700
Logtalk big time salami slicing [For "Whales" (ultra-high rollers)?] (Was: This could be a serious security vulnerability) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-29 11:20 +0200
Re: Logtalk big time salami slicing [For "Whales" (ultra-high rollers)?] (Was: This could be a serious security vulnerability) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-30 09:13 -0700
format/3 that does not have some Spaghetti logic (Re: Prolog PIP-0110: Its a Floating-Point Multiverse?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-04-30 17:51 +0200
Re: format/3 that does not have some Spaghetti logic (Re: Prolog PIP-0110: Its a Floating-Point Multiverse?) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-30 09:11 -0700
2025 Obituary: Skew Confluence (aka “Stews” 😆) (Re: 😂 "Plog-like" - that should be the official term!) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-07 01:40 +0100
Backdoor Monkeys from Eternal September (Re: 2025 Obituary: Skew Confluence (aka “Stews” 😆)) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-07 10:16 +0100
From Vibe-Coding to Vibe-Sniffing (Re: Backdoor Monkeys from Eternal September) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-07 11:08 +0100
From Feferman to Peyton Jones, no luck with ∃ (Re: 2025 Obituary: Skew Confluence (aka “Stews” 😆)) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-08 20:35 +0100
The quantifer ∃ is just the Combinator K (Schönfinkels C)? (Re: From Feferman to Peyton Jones, no luck with ∃) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-08 21:25 +0100
Not Ross Finlayson: Pioneers Cliff B. Jones (Was: 😂 "Plog-like" - that should be the official term!) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-11-09 21:16 +0100
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