Groups > sci.physics > #534295 > unrolled thread

Re: Where is the center of the universe?

Started by	Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com>
First post	2015-11-20 17:45 -0600
Last post	2015-12-02 23:04 -0800
Articles	20 on this page of 144 — 20 participants

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  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 17:45 -0600
    Re: Where is the center of the universe? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 16:09 -0800
      Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 20:51 -0500
      Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 22:02 -0500
    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-20 23:48 -0800
      Re: Where is the center of the universe? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 10:27 +0100
        Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 05:13 -0500
          Re: Where is the center of the universe? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 12:57 +0100
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 13:44 -0500
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 20:01 +0100
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 14:17 -0500
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 20:01 +0100
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 14:22 -0500
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 11:18 -0800
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 14:26 -0500
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 11:33 -0800
                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:32 -0500
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-11-21 12:01 -0800
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 12:24 -0800
                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 12:54 -0800
                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:36 -0500
                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-11-21 13:43 -0800
                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 13:57 -0800
                        Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-11-21 15:26 -0800
                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> - 2015-11-21 23:01 +0000
                        Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 17:07 -0600
                        Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-11-21 15:27 -0800
                          Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 15:58 -0800
                            Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-11-21 17:16 -0800
                              Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 17:32 -0800
                              Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 00:58 -0500
                                Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-21 23:27 -0800
                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 08:40 -0500
                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 08:01 -0600
                                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-22 12:45 -0800
                          Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 00:47 -0500
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:43 -0500
      Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 08:05 -0600
        Re: Where is the center of the universe? Jack Monaco <jacksh@umbertopal.org> - 2015-11-21 14:18 +0000
        Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 13:48 -0500
          Re: Where is the center of the universe? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-11-23 10:21 -0600
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-11-23 17:34 +0100
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 08:44 -0800
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 13:02 -0500
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-23 11:31 -0800
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 15:54 -0500
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-23 13:43 -0800
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 16:49 -0500
                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-23 16:17 -0800
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 13:54 -0800
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? dvus <dven1@adelphia.net> - 2015-11-24 16:52 -0500
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-24 22:24 +0000
    Re: Where is the center of the universe? dvus <dven1@adelphia.net> - 2015-11-21 06:43 -0500
      Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang". benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 13:45 -0500
        Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang". "Notroll2015" <notroll2015@charter.net> - 2015-11-21 12:51 -0600
        Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang". Edward Stansfield <stansfield5REM6@linuxmail.org> - 2015-11-21 14:11 -0500
          Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang". benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:51 -0500
      Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 11:27 -0800
        Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 16:42 -0500
          Re: Where is the center of the universe? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 17:01 -0800
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-21 21:16 -0800
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Gatuzo <Gatuzo@gallaxial.com> - 2015-11-22 00:23 -0500
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 01:20 -0500
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 01:18 -0500
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 08:06 -0600
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 06:36 -0800
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 00:54 -0500
      Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-21 20:37 +0000
        Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-21 21:06 -0800
          Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-22 11:43 +0000
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 09:01 -0500
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-22 14:59 +0000
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-22 14:02 -0800
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 16:32 -0600
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-22 22:52 +0000
      Re: Where is the center of the universe? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-11-23 10:51 -0600
        Re: Where is the center of the universe? dvus <dven1@adelphia.net> - 2015-11-24 17:07 -0500
          Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-24 22:48 +0000
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-24 21:47 -0800
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-25 10:32 +0000
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-25 09:47 -0800
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-25 23:31 +0000
                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-25 21:36 -0800
                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-26 14:22 -0800
                        Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-26 14:27 -0800
                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-26 17:34 -0800
                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-01 21:52 -0800
          Re: Where is the center of the universe? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-11-25 09:59 -0600
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 11:16 -0500
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 08:40 -0800
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-11-25 11:02 -0600
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? Jack Monaco <jacksh@umbBertopal.org> - 2015-11-25 17:37 +0000
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-11-25 18:47 +0100
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Jack Monaco <jacksh@umbBertopal.org> - 2015-11-25 18:11 +0000
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-25 10:06 -0800
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 14:04 -0600
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-11-25 17:50 +0100
            Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-25 10:01 -0800
              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 14:05 -0600
                Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-11-25 12:42 -0800
                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 13:18 -0800
                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-01 22:16 -0800
                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 08:31 -0600
                        Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-02 08:11 -0800
                          Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 10:21 -0600
                            Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 09:23 -0800
                            Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-02 10:19 -0800
                              Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 16:35 -0600
                                Re: Where is the center of the universe? "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 14:51 -0800
                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 17:30 -0600
                                Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-02 18:16 -0800
                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 20:23 -0600
                                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-02 21:23 -0800
                                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-02 21:31 -0800
                                        Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 09:25 -0600
                                          Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-03 12:03 -0800
                                            Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 14:50 -0600
                                              Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-03 16:43 -0800
                                                Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-12-03 17:12 -0800
                                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-03 17:35 -0800
                                                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 19:36 -0600
                                                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-03 22:40 -0800
                                                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-03 23:10 -0800
                                                        Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 07:45 -0600
                                                          Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-04 13:13 -0800
                                                            Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-04 21:31 -0800
                                                              Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-12-04 23:17 -0800
                                                                Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-05 00:04 -0800
                                                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-12-05 17:28 -0800
                                                                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-05 23:14 -0800
                                                            Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-05 12:14 -0800
                                                              Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-05 18:08 -0800
                                                                Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-06 17:50 -0800
                                                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 20:04 -0600
                                                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 07:39 -0600
                                                        Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 15:09 -0500
                                                          Re: Where is the center of the universe? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-07 21:50 +0100
                                                Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 19:33 -0600
                                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 10:34 -0800
                                                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 13:26 -0600
                                                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 14:49 -0500
                                      Re: Where is the center of the universe? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 09:21 -0600
                                  Re: Where is the center of the universe? pnalsing@gmail.com - 2015-12-02 22:01 -0800
                                    Re: Where is the center of the universe? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-02 23:04 -0800

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#534803

From	Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net>
Date	2015-11-23 10:21 -0600
Message-ID	<LoqdneKaOcCGoM7LnZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to	#534381

On 11/21/15 11/21/15 - 12:48 PM, benj wrote:
> Draw two normal lines to two separated points in our universe. Where they cross
> is the center.

You have claimed this several times. Apparently you don't understand that 
"normal to a point" has no meaning. In 3-D the concept "normal" applies TO A 
SURFACE, not to a point (or to a volume); in general the normal vector ("line") 
also depends on which point of the surface is used.

What surface do you have in mind, why didn't you bother to mention it, and what 
make you think that the two lines will actually "cross"?

	You seem to have an excessively naive notion of geometry in
	your mind.

> Sam represents the current idiocy of this theory. He says the universe has no
> center. but also the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3 (Sam thinks
> space-time is real so he calls time a dimension too making it 4) These two ideas
> are totally mutually exclusive. Sam has no problem with that. You just never
> think about both of them at the same time. Even better, don't think at all.

You take issue with "Sam" without knowing the actual situation. He is by no 
means alone, and your claims here are simply due to your personal ignorance 
about basic geometry, about current cosmological models, and about other people.

The best current cosmological model reproduces essentially all of the relevant 
details of the cosmos we observe. It has no "center of the universe", and models 
the geometry of the universe as a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold.

Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real" (YOUR 
inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the world we 
inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have today for 
the domains of the world in which they are valid. Mainstream cosmological models 
are based on GR (specifically the FLRW manifolds).

	Your claim "the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3"
	is confusing model and world -- that's invalid. You are
	implicitly ASSUMING some unspecified cosmological model, and
	the odds are incredibly high that it is not as good as the
	mainstream cosmological models you take issue with.

	IOW: arguing from ignorance is never a good plan. Basing your
	argument on an unacknowledged and unspecified model is
	downright silly. You don't even realize you are doing this.

Tom Roberts

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#534806

From	Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl>
Date	2015-11-23 17:34 +0100
Message-ID	<n2vf63$ptg$1@node2.news.atman.pl>
In reply to	#534803


Użytkownik "Tom Roberts"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
dyskusyjnych:LoqdneKaOcCGoM7LnZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com...


|Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real" (YOUR
|inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the world we
|inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have today 
for
|the domains of the world in which they are valid.

A bullshit, and even morons like you only pretend to use them, while for
real use you have opposite assumptions.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#534807

From	HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-23 08:44 -0800
Message-ID	<b6c66d59-2cbd-43dd-a42f-00016ccd0e88@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#534803

That's nothing Tom. He also believes in ghosts and ESP along with other kooky things.

But let's keep this between us. Bj gets mad when I talk about his insane beliefs

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#534837

From	benj <none@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-23 13:02 -0500
Message-ID	<XwI4y.121237$dc2.120552@fx24.iad>
In reply to	#534807

On 11/23/2015 11:44 AM, HVAC wrote:
> That's nothing Tom. He also believes in ghosts and ESP along with other kooky things.
>
> But let's keep this between us. Bj gets mad when I talk about his insane beliefs
>
Tom, pros, never get mad. They only PRETEND to get mad for effect. HVAC 
is the prefect example. He PRETENDS to be insane for effect, but I am 
beginning to wonder about him.

-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#534874

From	The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2015-11-23 11:31 -0800
Message-ID	<565369A8.3781@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to	#534803

Tom Roberts wrote:
> 
> On 11/21/15 11/21/15 - 12:48 PM, benj wrote:
> > Draw two normal lines to two separated points in our universe. Where they cross
> > is the center.
> 
> You have claimed this several times. Apparently you don't understand that
> "normal to a point" has no meaning. In 3-D the concept "normal" applies TO A
> SURFACE, not to a point (or to a volume); in general the normal vector ("line")
> also depends on which point of the surface is used.
> 
> What surface do you have in mind, why didn't you bother to mention it, and what
> make you think that the two lines will actually "cross"?
> 
>         You seem to have an excessively naive notion of geometry in
>         your mind.
> 
> > Sam represents the current idiocy of this theory. He says the universe has no
> > center. but also the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3 (Sam thinks
> > space-time is real so he calls time a dimension too making it 4) These two ideas
> > are totally mutually exclusive. Sam has no problem with that. You just never
> > think about both of them at the same time. Even better, don't think at all.
> 
> You take issue with "Sam" without knowing the actual situation. He is by no
> means alone, and your claims here are simply due to your personal ignorance
> about basic geometry, about current cosmological models, and about other people.
> 
> The best current cosmological model reproduces essentially all of the relevant
> details of the cosmos we observe. It has no "center of the universe", and models
> the geometry of the universe as a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold.
> 
> Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real" (YOUR
> inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the world we
> inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have today for
> the domains of the world in which they are valid. Mainstream cosmological models
> are based on GR (specifically the FLRW manifolds).
> 
>         Your claim "the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3"
>         is confusing model and world -- that's invalid. You are
>         implicitly ASSUMING some unspecified cosmological model, and
>         the odds are incredibly high that it is not as good as the
>         mainstream cosmological models you take issue with.
> 
>         IOW: arguing from ignorance is never a good plan. Basing your
>         argument on an unacknowledged and unspecified model is
>         downright silly. You don't even realize you are doing this.
> 
> Tom Roberts


When you draw a line from the top of the universe..
to the bottom of the universe..that's one straight line.

Then you draw another line straight across...(of course
if you measure the length of the first line and divide
the number by 2, you know where the middle is at already)

When you draw the second line across, you now have
two lines and four parts. 

The first three parts are the 3 dimensions...
the fourth part is the fourth dimension.

The center is the point where all the 4 dimensions meet....the center of
the universe.

That is as simple as I can explain it.

The Starmaker

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#534895

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-23 15:54 -0500
Message-ID	<n2vu98$c8l$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#534874

On 11/23/2015 2:31 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Tom Roberts wrote:
>>
>> On 11/21/15 11/21/15 - 12:48 PM, benj wrote:
>>> Draw two normal lines to two separated points in our universe. Where they cross
>>> is the center.
>>
>> You have claimed this several times. Apparently you don't understand that
>> "normal to a point" has no meaning. In 3-D the concept "normal" applies TO A
>> SURFACE, not to a point (or to a volume); in general the normal vector ("line")
>> also depends on which point of the surface is used.
>>
>> What surface do you have in mind, why didn't you bother to mention it, and what
>> make you think that the two lines will actually "cross"?
>>
>>          You seem to have an excessively naive notion of geometry in
>>          your mind.
>>
>>> Sam represents the current idiocy of this theory. He says the universe has no
>>> center. but also the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3 (Sam thinks
>>> space-time is real so he calls time a dimension too making it 4) These two ideas
>>> are totally mutually exclusive. Sam has no problem with that. You just never
>>> think about both of them at the same time. Even better, don't think at all.
>>
>> You take issue with "Sam" without knowing the actual situation. He is by no
>> means alone, and your claims here are simply due to your personal ignorance
>> about basic geometry, about current cosmological models, and about other people.
>>
>> The best current cosmological model reproduces essentially all of the relevant
>> details of the cosmos we observe. It has no "center of the universe", and models
>> the geometry of the universe as a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold.
>>
>> Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real" (YOUR
>> inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the world we
>> inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have today for
>> the domains of the world in which they are valid. Mainstream cosmological models
>> are based on GR (specifically the FLRW manifolds).
>>
>>          Your claim "the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3"
>>          is confusing model and world -- that's invalid. You are
>>          implicitly ASSUMING some unspecified cosmological model, and
>>          the odds are incredibly high that it is not as good as the
>>          mainstream cosmological models you take issue with.
>>
>>          IOW: arguing from ignorance is never a good plan. Basing your
>>          argument on an unacknowledged and unspecified model is
>>          downright silly. You don't even realize you are doing this.
>>
>> Tom Roberts
>
>
> When you draw a line from the top of the universe..
> to the bottom of the universe..that's one straight line.

If you are standing at the top of the universe and you look up, what do 
you see?

-- 

Rick

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#534906

From	The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2015-11-23 13:43 -0800
Message-ID	<56538893.2ABC@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to	#534895

rickman wrote:
> 
> On 11/23/2015 2:31 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Tom Roberts wrote:
> >>
> >> On 11/21/15 11/21/15 - 12:48 PM, benj wrote:
> >>> Draw two normal lines to two separated points in our universe. Where they cross
> >>> is the center.
> >>
> >> You have claimed this several times. Apparently you don't understand that
> >> "normal to a point" has no meaning. In 3-D the concept "normal" applies TO A
> >> SURFACE, not to a point (or to a volume); in general the normal vector ("line")
> >> also depends on which point of the surface is used.
> >>
> >> What surface do you have in mind, why didn't you bother to mention it, and what
> >> make you think that the two lines will actually "cross"?
> >>
> >>          You seem to have an excessively naive notion of geometry in
> >>          your mind.
> >>
> >>> Sam represents the current idiocy of this theory. He says the universe has no
> >>> center. but also the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3 (Sam thinks
> >>> space-time is real so he calls time a dimension too making it 4) These two ideas
> >>> are totally mutually exclusive. Sam has no problem with that. You just never
> >>> think about both of them at the same time. Even better, don't think at all.
> >>
> >> You take issue with "Sam" without knowing the actual situation. He is by no
> >> means alone, and your claims here are simply due to your personal ignorance
> >> about basic geometry, about current cosmological models, and about other people.
> >>
> >> The best current cosmological model reproduces essentially all of the relevant
> >> details of the cosmos we observe. It has no "center of the universe", and models
> >> the geometry of the universe as a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold.
> >>
> >> Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real" (YOUR
> >> inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the world we
> >> inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have today for
> >> the domains of the world in which they are valid. Mainstream cosmological models
> >> are based on GR (specifically the FLRW manifolds).
> >>
> >>          Your claim "the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3"
> >>          is confusing model and world -- that's invalid. You are
> >>          implicitly ASSUMING some unspecified cosmological model, and
> >>          the odds are incredibly high that it is not as good as the
> >>          mainstream cosmological models you take issue with.
> >>
> >>          IOW: arguing from ignorance is never a good plan. Basing your
> >>          argument on an unacknowledged and unspecified model is
> >>          downright silly. You don't even realize you are doing this.
> >>
> >> Tom Roberts
> >
> >
> > When you draw a line from the top of the universe..
> > to the bottom of the universe..that's one straight line.
> 
> If you are standing at the top of the universe and you look up, what do
> you see?
> 
> --
> 
> Rick


You may need to understand my perpective of the universe...and how I am
able to see the top of the universe.

When I am standing not at the top of the universe, but *on* top of the
universe...the whole universe, or
if I place the whole universe on my drawing board...then I draw a line
from the top of the universe to the
bottom of the universe. My view of the universe is like a sheet of paper
on the drawing board.

If I look up...I see a ceiling. If I look to the right I see venetian
blinds..

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#534913

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-23 16:49 -0500
Message-ID	<n301hc$plc$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#534906

On 11/23/2015 4:43 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>>
>> On 11/23/2015 2:31 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
>>> Tom Roberts wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 11/21/15 11/21/15 - 12:48 PM, benj wrote:
>>>>> Draw two normal lines to two separated points in our universe. Where they cross
>>>>> is the center.
>>>>
>>>> You have claimed this several times. Apparently you don't understand that
>>>> "normal to a point" has no meaning. In 3-D the concept "normal" applies TO A
>>>> SURFACE, not to a point (or to a volume); in general the normal vector ("line")
>>>> also depends on which point of the surface is used.
>>>>
>>>> What surface do you have in mind, why didn't you bother to mention it, and what
>>>> make you think that the two lines will actually "cross"?
>>>>
>>>>           You seem to have an excessively naive notion of geometry in
>>>>           your mind.
>>>>
>>>>> Sam represents the current idiocy of this theory. He says the universe has no
>>>>> center. but also the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3 (Sam thinks
>>>>> space-time is real so he calls time a dimension too making it 4) These two ideas
>>>>> are totally mutually exclusive. Sam has no problem with that. You just never
>>>>> think about both of them at the same time. Even better, don't think at all.
>>>>
>>>> You take issue with "Sam" without knowing the actual situation. He is by no
>>>> means alone, and your claims here are simply due to your personal ignorance
>>>> about basic geometry, about current cosmological models, and about other people.
>>>>
>>>> The best current cosmological model reproduces essentially all of the relevant
>>>> details of the cosmos we observe. It has no "center of the universe", and models
>>>> the geometry of the universe as a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold.
>>>>
>>>> Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real" (YOUR
>>>> inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the world we
>>>> inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have today for
>>>> the domains of the world in which they are valid. Mainstream cosmological models
>>>> are based on GR (specifically the FLRW manifolds).
>>>>
>>>>           Your claim "the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3"
>>>>           is confusing model and world -- that's invalid. You are
>>>>           implicitly ASSUMING some unspecified cosmological model, and
>>>>           the odds are incredibly high that it is not as good as the
>>>>           mainstream cosmological models you take issue with.
>>>>
>>>>           IOW: arguing from ignorance is never a good plan. Basing your
>>>>           argument on an unacknowledged and unspecified model is
>>>>           downright silly. You don't even realize you are doing this.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Roberts
>>>
>>>
>>> When you draw a line from the top of the universe..
>>> to the bottom of the universe..that's one straight line.
>>
>> If you are standing at the top of the universe and you look up, what do
>> you see?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Rick
>
>
> You may need to understand my perpective of the universe...and how I am
> able to see the top of the universe.
>
> When I am standing not at the top of the universe, but *on* top of the
> universe...the whole universe, or
> if I place the whole universe on my drawing board...then I draw a line
> from the top of the universe to the
> bottom of the universe. My view of the universe is like a sheet of paper
> on the drawing board.
>
> If I look up...I see a ceiling. If I look to the right I see venetian
> blinds..

Your universe is rather smaller than the one I know.  I guess it has 
different rules.

-- 

Rick

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#534938

From	The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2015-11-23 16:17 -0800
Message-ID	<5653AC96.4FB@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to	#534913

rickman wrote:
> 
> On 11/23/2015 4:43 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > rickman wrote:
> >>
> >> On 11/23/2015 2:31 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>> Tom Roberts wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 11/21/15 11/21/15 - 12:48 PM, benj wrote:
> >>>>> Draw two normal lines to two separated points in our universe. Where they cross
> >>>>> is the center.
> >>>>
> >>>> You have claimed this several times. Apparently you don't understand that
> >>>> "normal to a point" has no meaning. In 3-D the concept "normal" applies TO A
> >>>> SURFACE, not to a point (or to a volume); in general the normal vector ("line")
> >>>> also depends on which point of the surface is used.
> >>>>
> >>>> What surface do you have in mind, why didn't you bother to mention it, and what
> >>>> make you think that the two lines will actually "cross"?
> >>>>
> >>>>           You seem to have an excessively naive notion of geometry in
> >>>>           your mind.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Sam represents the current idiocy of this theory. He says the universe has no
> >>>>> center. but also the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3 (Sam thinks
> >>>>> space-time is real so he calls time a dimension too making it 4) These two ideas
> >>>>> are totally mutually exclusive. Sam has no problem with that. You just never
> >>>>> think about both of them at the same time. Even better, don't think at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> You take issue with "Sam" without knowing the actual situation. He is by no
> >>>> means alone, and your claims here are simply due to your personal ignorance
> >>>> about basic geometry, about current cosmological models, and about other people.
> >>>>
> >>>> The best current cosmological model reproduces essentially all of the relevant
> >>>> details of the cosmos we observe. It has no "center of the universe", and models
> >>>> the geometry of the universe as a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold.
> >>>>
> >>>> Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real" (YOUR
> >>>> inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the world we
> >>>> inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have today for
> >>>> the domains of the world in which they are valid. Mainstream cosmological models
> >>>> are based on GR (specifically the FLRW manifolds).
> >>>>
> >>>>           Your claim "the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3"
> >>>>           is confusing model and world -- that's invalid. You are
> >>>>           implicitly ASSUMING some unspecified cosmological model, and
> >>>>           the odds are incredibly high that it is not as good as the
> >>>>           mainstream cosmological models you take issue with.
> >>>>
> >>>>           IOW: arguing from ignorance is never a good plan. Basing your
> >>>>           argument on an unacknowledged and unspecified model is
> >>>>           downright silly. You don't even realize you are doing this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom Roberts
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> When you draw a line from the top of the universe..
> >>> to the bottom of the universe..that's one straight line.
> >>
> >> If you are standing at the top of the universe and you look up, what do
> >> you see?
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Rick
> >
> >
> > You may need to understand my perpective of the universe...and how I am
> > able to see the top of the universe.
> >
> > When I am standing not at the top of the universe, but *on* top of the
> > universe...the whole universe, or
> > if I place the whole universe on my drawing board...then I draw a line
> > from the top of the universe to the
> > bottom of the universe. My view of the universe is like a sheet of paper
> > on the drawing board.
> >
> > If I look up...I see a ceiling. If I look to the right I see venetian
> > blinds..
> 
> Your universe is rather smaller than the one I know.  I guess it has
> different rules.
> 
> --
> 
> Rick



How big are photos and illustrations you see from others at NASA or from others in the 'scientific community'? Couldn't be bigger
than an 8x11.5 sheet of paper.

I see photos and illustrations in their books....their size is much smaller than mine.


Do I need to get a bigger drawing board??? 


Or I can take a picture with a camera....but I don't know the largest size I can print at Shutterfly.

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#534916

From	"Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-23 13:54 -0800
Message-ID	<82419ce0-d869-4bdd-9da5-f0b0ced4ddc1@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#534906

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 1:43:37 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> rickman wrote:
> > 
> > On 11/23/2015 2:31 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > Tom Roberts wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 11/21/15 11/21/15 - 12:48 PM, benj wrote:
> > >>> Draw two normal lines to two separated points in our universe. Where they cross
> > >>> is the center.
> > >>
> > >> You have claimed this several times. Apparently you don't understand that
> > >> "normal to a point" has no meaning. In 3-D the concept "normal" applies TO A
> > >> SURFACE, not to a point (or to a volume); in general the normal vector ("line")
> > >> also depends on which point of the surface is used.
> > >>
> > >> What surface do you have in mind, why didn't you bother to mention it, and what
> > >> make you think that the two lines will actually "cross"?
> > >>
> > >>          You seem to have an excessively naive notion of geometry in
> > >>          your mind.
> > >>
> > >>> Sam represents the current idiocy of this theory. He says the universe has no
> > >>> center. but also the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3 (Sam thinks
> > >>> space-time is real so he calls time a dimension too making it 4) These two ideas
> > >>> are totally mutually exclusive. Sam has no problem with that. You just never
> > >>> think about both of them at the same time. Even better, don't think at all.
> > >>
> > >> You take issue with "Sam" without knowing the actual situation. He is by no
> > >> means alone, and your claims here are simply due to your personal ignorance
> > >> about basic geometry, about current cosmological models, and about other people.
> > >>
> > >> The best current cosmological model reproduces essentially all of the relevant
> > >> details of the cosmos we observe. It has no "center of the universe", and models
> > >> the geometry of the universe as a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold.
> > >>
> > >> Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real" (YOUR
> > >> inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the world we
> > >> inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have today for
> > >> the domains of the world in which they are valid. Mainstream cosmological models
> > >> are based on GR (specifically the FLRW manifolds).
> > >>
> > >>          Your claim "the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3"
> > >>          is confusing model and world -- that's invalid. You are
> > >>          implicitly ASSUMING some unspecified cosmological model, and
> > >>          the odds are incredibly high that it is not as good as the
> > >>          mainstream cosmological models you take issue with.
> > >>
> > >>          IOW: arguing from ignorance is never a good plan. Basing your
> > >>          argument on an unacknowledged and unspecified model is
> > >>          downright silly. You don't even realize you are doing this.
> > >>
> > >> Tom Roberts
> > >
> > >
> > > When you draw a line from the top of the universe..
> > > to the bottom of the universe..that's one straight line.
> > 
> > If you are standing at the top of the universe and you look up, what do
> > you see?
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > Rick
> 
> 
> You may need to understand my perpective of the universe...and how I am
> able to see the top of the universe.
> 
> When I am standing not at the top of the universe, but *on* top of the
> universe...the whole universe, or
> if I place the whole universe on my drawing board...then I draw a line
> from the top of the universe to the
> bottom of the universe. My view of the universe is like a sheet of paper
> on the drawing board.
> 
> If I look up...I see a ceiling. If I look to the right I see venetian
> blinds..

Look with your mind's eye, 
you should be able to see you, 
or to see through you.

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#535191

From	dvus <dven1@adelphia.net>
Date	2015-11-24 16:52 -0500
Message-ID	<dbk4gaF2i0pU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#534895

On 11/23/2015 3:54 PM, rickman wrote:
> On 11/23/2015 2:31 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
>> Tom Roberts wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11/21/15 11/21/15 - 12:48 PM, benj wrote:
>>>> Draw two normal lines to two separated points in our universe. Where
>>>> they cross
>>>> is the center.
>>>
>>> You have claimed this several times. Apparently you don't understand
>>> that
>>> "normal to a point" has no meaning. In 3-D the concept "normal"
>>> applies TO A
>>> SURFACE, not to a point (or to a volume); in general the normal
>>> vector ("line")
>>> also depends on which point of the surface is used.
>>>
>>> What surface do you have in mind, why didn't you bother to mention
>>> it, and what
>>> make you think that the two lines will actually "cross"?
>>>
>>>          You seem to have an excessively naive notion of geometry in
>>>          your mind.
>>>
>>>> Sam represents the current idiocy of this theory. He says the
>>>> universe has no
>>>> center. but also the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3 (Sam
>>>> thinks
>>>> space-time is real so he calls time a dimension too making it 4)
>>>> These two ideas
>>>> are totally mutually exclusive. Sam has no problem with that. You
>>>> just never
>>>> think about both of them at the same time. Even better, don't think
>>>> at all.
>>>
>>> You take issue with "Sam" without knowing the actual situation. He is
>>> by no
>>> means alone, and your claims here are simply due to your personal
>>> ignorance
>>> about basic geometry, about current cosmological models, and about
>>> other people.
>>>
>>> The best current cosmological model reproduces essentially all of the
>>> relevant
>>> details of the cosmos we observe. It has no "center of the universe",
>>> and models
>>> the geometry of the universe as a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold.
>>>
>>> Neither Sam nor cosmological models consider spacetime to be "real"
>>> (YOUR
>>> inappropriate word). Rather, spacetime is part of a MODEL of the
>>> world we
>>> inhabit; models based on it, SR and GR, are the best models we have
>>> today for
>>> the domains of the world in which they are valid. Mainstream
>>> cosmological models
>>> are based on GR (specifically the FLRW manifolds).
>>>
>>>          Your claim "the universe is not multidimensional beyond 3"
>>>          is confusing model and world -- that's invalid. You are
>>>          implicitly ASSUMING some unspecified cosmological model, and
>>>          the odds are incredibly high that it is not as good as the
>>>          mainstream cosmological models you take issue with.
>>>
>>>          IOW: arguing from ignorance is never a good plan. Basing your
>>>          argument on an unacknowledged and unspecified model is
>>>          downright silly. You don't even realize you are doing this.
>>>
>>> Tom Roberts
>>
>>
>> When you draw a line from the top of the universe..
>> to the bottom of the universe..that's one straight line.
>
> If you are standing at the top of the universe and you look up, what do
> you see?

If you were a member of an ancient civilization living on a planet 
located in the oldest galaxy in the Cosmos did you have a better view of 
the "edge" of the Universe?

-- 
dvus

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#535213

From	Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de>
Date	2015-11-24 22:24 +0000
Message-ID	<3141290.zQzivRMoUI@PointedEars.de>
In reply to	#535191

dvus wrote:

> If you were a member of an ancient civilization living on a planet
> located in the oldest galaxy in the Cosmos did you have a better view of
> the "edge" of the Universe?

No.
 
Stop crossposting without Followup-To, and get a real name.


PointedEars
-- 
Q: How many theoretical physicists specializing in general relativity
   does it take to change a light bulb?  
A: Two: one to hold the bulb and one to rotate the universe.
(from: WolframAlpha)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#534344

From	dvus <dven1@adelphia.net>
Date	2015-11-21 06:43 -0500
Message-ID	<dbb3o2FnqgdU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#534295

On 11/20/2015 6:45 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
>> On 2/8/15 3:44 PM, The Starmaker wrote:

>> Where is the center of the universe?
>>
>
>    No Center
>      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html
>      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html
>
>    Also see Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial
>      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm
>      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html
>      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/CosmoCalc.html
>
>    WMAP: Foundations of the Big Bang theory
>      http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html
>
>    WMAP: Tests of Big Bang Cosmology
>      http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest.html

I'm having a hard time with this. If there is no "center" of the 
Universe then it would seem that it would have to be infinite in size. 
Yet we are told the BB happened just under 13.75 light-years ago. How 
could it be infinite if it originated a finite time ago?

Additionally, I have read numerous articles that purport that 
cosmologists are now able to see galaxies that formed a short time after 
the BB. What will they see when they are able to see beyond those 
earliest galaxies?

Also, I constantly see diagrams supposedly of the entire Universe shaped 
kind of like a football. (why it isn't round I don't know) Those 
diagrams don't indicate the Universe is infinite or they would have to 
be be infinitely big.

Then I read about theories of the "multiverse" composed of many bubble 
Universes surrounding ours. How can you surround an infinite Universe?

I try to read everything I can get my hands on about this subject but I 
still can't seem to wrap my mind around the seemingly contradictory 
facts I see here and elsewhere. My intuition says it all must have 
something to do with c and its limitations on what we can see but I 
guess I would need a better understanding of the math of time dilation 
for it to make sense.

Heh, I'm hesitating hitting the "Send" button for fear of appearing a 
moron but I guess if I don't ask I'll never know if indeed I *can* know. 
So, here goes...

-- 
dvus

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#534379 — Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".

From	benj <none@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-21 13:45 -0500
Subject	Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".
Message-ID	<8Z24y.148192$M%.117553@fx20.iad>
In reply to	#534344

On 11/21/2015 08:43 AM, Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
>
> @dvus,  The _observable_ Universe (capital 'U') is finite.
>
> The _horizon_ is subjective, it depends on when/where you are.
>
> For us, here&now, the _horizon_ is 46 billion light years away
> and running away from us at an accelerated rate.
>
> Entropy changes the SpaceTime metric ( per General Relativity ),
> the Universe is expanding, exponentially, per GR's cosmological constant.
>
>    "Dark Energy" is just entropy ratcheting up
>    as "exergy" (energy that can do work) is consumed away.
>
>    "Dark Matter" is just unseen "rest mass".
>
>    Like bullets, photons have momentum (but no rest mass).
>
> Objectively,
> There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".
>
>
Rolf, my BBB theory says the Big Bang is Bullshit.

-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#534382 — Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".

From	"Notroll2015" <notroll2015@charter.net>
Date	2015-11-21 12:51 -0600
Subject	Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".
Message-ID	<n2qef3$i14$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to	#534379

That’s what all three of Hagar's partners said.

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#534386 — Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".

From	Edward Stansfield <stansfield5REM6@linuxmail.org>
Date	2015-11-21 14:11 -0500
Subject	Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".
Message-ID	<n2qfhc$hmj$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#534379

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 13:45:24 -0500, benj wrote:

> On 11/21/2015 08:43 AM, Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
>>
>> @dvus,  The _observable_ Universe (capital 'U') is finite.
>>
>> The _horizon_ is subjective, it depends on when/where you are.
>>
>> For us, here&now, the _horizon_ is 46 billion light years away
>> and running away from us at an accelerated rate.
>>
>> Entropy changes the SpaceTime metric ( per General Relativity ),
>> the Universe is expanding, exponentially, per GR's cosmological constant.
>>
>>    "Dark Energy" is just entropy ratcheting up
>>    as "exergy" (energy that can do work) is consumed away.
>>
>>    "Dark Matter" is just unseen "rest mass".
>>
>>    Like bullets, photons have momentum (but no rest mass).
>>
>> Objectively,
>> There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".
>>
>>
> Rolf, my BBB theory says the Big Bang is Bullshit.

Where did the first one come from?

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#534428 — Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".

From	benj <none@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-21 16:51 -0500
Subject	Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".
Message-ID	<DH54y.136341$zj3.72775@fx05.iad>
In reply to	#534386

On 11/21/2015 03:47 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me wrote:
>
> You (Ben_Jacoby and Edward_Stansfield) wrote:
>> > Rolf, my BBB theory says the Big Bang is Bullshit.
>>
>> Where did the first one come from?
>
> Your theories come form a stray dog's ass.
> Neither of you have a clue, nor will you ever.
>
Yeah, Rolf thinks that the universe is a pointless big machine that 
can't vary what it does. Rolf said God has written it all already so 
there are no surprises. He's a moron. Just look at his huge font and you 
can derive that much. (Wait until he does his brown text on a dark red 
background for you)



-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#534395

From	"Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-21 11:27 -0800
Message-ID	<a13b3dd8-6f25-4a3f-891e-2c108ee0a340@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#534344

On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 3:44:11 AM UTC-8, dvus wrote:
> On 11/20/2015 6:45 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
> >> On 2/8/15 3:44 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> >> Where is the center of the universe?
> >>
> >
> >    No Center
> >      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html
> >      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html
> >
> >    Also see Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial
> >      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm
> >      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html
> >      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/CosmoCalc.html
> >
> >    WMAP: Foundations of the Big Bang theory
> >      http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html
> >
> >    WMAP: Tests of Big Bang Cosmology
> >      http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest.html
> 
> I'm having a hard time with this. If there is no "center" of the 
> Universe then it would seem that it would have to be infinite in size. 
> Yet we are told the BB happened just under 13.75 light-years ago. How 
> could it be infinite if it originated a finite time ago?
> 
> Additionally, I have read numerous articles that purport that 
> cosmologists are now able to see galaxies that formed a short time after 
> the BB. What will they see when they are able to see beyond those 
> earliest galaxies?
> 
> Also, I constantly see diagrams supposedly of the entire Universe shaped 
> kind of like a football. (why it isn't round I don't know) Those 
> diagrams don't indicate the Universe is infinite or they would have to 
> be be infinitely big.
> 
> Then I read about theories of the "multiverse" composed of many bubble 
> Universes surrounding ours. How can you surround an infinite Universe?
> 
> I try to read everything I can get my hands on about this subject but I 
> still can't seem to wrap my mind around the seemingly contradictory 
> facts I see here and elsewhere. My intuition says it all must have 
> something to do with c and its limitations on what we can see but I 
> guess I would need a better understanding of the math of time dilation 
> for it to make sense.
> 
> Heh, I'm hesitating hitting the "Send" button for fear of appearing a 
> moron but I guess if I don't ask I'll never know if indeed I *can* know. 
> So, here goes...
> 
> -- 
> dvus

Here's a way to consider all the points of space-time 
over all time and space, in coordinate spaces.  Now, 
for what we might have as the visible universe of the 
space, maybe that is bounded today, or unbounded, 
if not infinite.  Here the difference between unbounded 
and infinite is that there's not a boundary.  Then, in the 
mathematical space, we can call it unbounded or call it 
infinite.  Then, you figure that quantity is conserved in 
the mathematical space, in that the universe as a mathematical 
object will use the least numerical resources that it needs.  
Furthermore, you might reason that there's just one 
continuum, like a linear continuum.  Then, all three space 
dimensions (that we have as not 2-D and not 4-D, the first 
product space where the cross vector product exists, ...) fit 
a la "hologram" into 1-D:  with e_1, e_2, e_3 being the fluent, 
its fluxions, and the fluent to which the fluxion would be a 
fluent, so, there's a unique normal form to encode the 
3-D coordinate in the linear continuum (to conserve all that).

The idea here is that the Universe is quite infinite, then that 
adding up the effects needs to be maintained with mathematics 
about the continuous and discrete, and, then about in infinities 
and infinitesimals in mathematics in nature (where high-energy 
physics eg highly energetic or organized systems in nature see 
these point and total effects for the local and global with us in 
the middle as thinking beings and in an anthropocentric sense).

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#534421

From	benj <none@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-21 16:42 -0500
Message-ID	<Py54y.143301$gK.117677@fx26.iad>
In reply to	#534395

On 11/21/2015 02:27 PM, Ross A. Finlayson wrote:
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 3:44:11 AM UTC-8, dvus wrote:
>> On 11/20/2015 6:45 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
>>>> On 2/8/15 3:44 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
>>
>>>> Where is the center of the universe?
>>>>
>>>
>>>     No Center
>>>       http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html
>>>       http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html
>>>
>>>     Also see Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial
>>>       http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm
>>>       http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html
>>>       http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/CosmoCalc.html
>>>
>>>     WMAP: Foundations of the Big Bang theory
>>>       http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html
>>>
>>>     WMAP: Tests of Big Bang Cosmology
>>>       http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest.html
>>
>> I'm having a hard time with this. If there is no "center" of the
>> Universe then it would seem that it would have to be infinite in size.
>> Yet we are told the BB happened just under 13.75 light-years ago. How
>> could it be infinite if it originated a finite time ago?
>>
>> Additionally, I have read numerous articles that purport that
>> cosmologists are now able to see galaxies that formed a short time after
>> the BB. What will they see when they are able to see beyond those
>> earliest galaxies?
>>
>> Also, I constantly see diagrams supposedly of the entire Universe shaped
>> kind of like a football. (why it isn't round I don't know) Those
>> diagrams don't indicate the Universe is infinite or they would have to
>> be be infinitely big.
>>
>> Then I read about theories of the "multiverse" composed of many bubble
>> Universes surrounding ours. How can you surround an infinite Universe?
>>
>> I try to read everything I can get my hands on about this subject but I
>> still can't seem to wrap my mind around the seemingly contradictory
>> facts I see here and elsewhere. My intuition says it all must have
>> something to do with c and its limitations on what we can see but I
>> guess I would need a better understanding of the math of time dilation
>> for it to make sense.
>>
>> Heh, I'm hesitating hitting the "Send" button for fear of appearing a
>> moron but I guess if I don't ask I'll never know if indeed I *can* know.
>> So, here goes...
>>
>> --
>> dvus
>
>
>
> Here's a way to consider all the points of space-time
> over all time and space, in coordinate spaces.  Now,
> for what we might have as the visible universe of the
> space, maybe that is bounded today, or unbounded,
> if not infinite.  Here the difference between unbounded
> and infinite is that there's not a boundary.  Then, in the
> mathematical space, we can call it unbounded or call it
> infinite.  Then, you figure that quantity is conserved in
> the mathematical space, in that the universe as a mathematical
> object will use the least numerical resources that it needs.
> Furthermore, you might reason that there's just one
> continuum, like a linear continuum.  Then, all three space
> dimensions (that we have as not 2-D and not 4-D, the first
> product space where the cross vector product exists, ...) fit
> a la "hologram" into 1-D:  with e_1, e_2, e_3 being the fluent,
> its fluxions, and the fluent to which the fluxion would be a
> fluent, so, there's a unique normal form to encode the
> 3-D coordinate in the linear continuum (to conserve all that).
>
> The idea here is that the Universe is quite infinite, then that
> adding up the effects needs to be maintained with mathematics
> about the continuous and discrete, and, then about in infinities
> and infinitesimals in mathematics in nature (where high-energy
> physics eg highly energetic or organized systems in nature see
> these point and total effects for the local and global with us in
> the middle as thinking beings and in an anthropocentric sense).

The idea that the universe is infinite and follows your mathematical 
fantasies is quite wrong. Mathematics is not more real than reality. In 
fact, it isn't real at all!



-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#534473

From	HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com>
Date	2015-11-21 17:01 -0800
Message-ID	<7c66a56b-6a24-41d2-9676-52b9f0df420f@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#534421

benj
- show quoted text -
The idea that the universe is infinite and follows your mathematical 
fantasies is quite wrong. Mathematics is not more real than reality. In 
fact, it isn't real at all! 
============


Yet BJ believes in god. Tell the group, BJ. How long has your god been around? Since infinity can't be the correct answer since you insist it doesn't exist, how long exactly has your god been in the picture?

Feel free to dodge the question

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csiph-web

Re: Where is the center of the universe?

Contents

#534803

#534806

#534807

#534837

#534874

#534895

#534906

#534913

#534938

#534916

#535191

#535213

#534344

#534379 — Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".

#534382 — Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".

#534386 — Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".

#534428 — Re: There's nothing special about the start of "the big bang".

#534395

#534421

#534473