Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #466511

Re: Deep Thought

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Deep Thought
Date	2018-08-01 22:38 +0200
Message-ID	<fsek2aFi2q0U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <pjg2rg$4ad$1@dont-email.me> <fs2t6fFru7uU1@mid.individual.net> <bdce9191-808c-a535-fc49-64716b50a95c@PointedEars.de> <fs8s1tF89n7U1@mid.individual.net> <6a9f3c5f-3c16-960d-2a9d-a637c2bf7436@PointedEars.de>

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Am 30.07.2018 um 18:37 schrieb Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
> Thomas Heger wrote:
> 
>> Am 28.07.2018 um 14:44 schrieb Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
>>>> Length contraction is actually only one dimensional (in SRT in 'x'
>>>> direction).
>>>
>>> Length contraction in FLAT spacetime is observed in the direction of
>>> relative motion, whatever direction that is.  Typically (for simplicity) one
>>> chooses the coordinate system such that the x-axis of the coordinate system
>>> is parallel to the direction of motion, i.e. that the motion is in the +x or
>>> −x direction.
>>>
>> I have told you recently, that I think SRT is wrong.
> 
> Then your "Herman" Minkowski is wrong, too, because he assumes that SRT is
> correct.  You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
The relevant work of Minkowski stems from 1908 and 1909.

SRT is from 1905 and Minkowski helped his student Einstein.

Most likely he agreed, but that is not really relevant.

Relevant are Minkowski's late publications.

This a copy of the German version:

https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Raum_und_Zeit_(Minkowski)

and here is an English version:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Space_and_Time_(Saha)

>>>> Since the world is not one dimensional, we could try a 3d version of
>>>> relativistic shrinking.
>>>>
>>>> The reason for deformation is a Lorentz transform,
>>>
>>> No, the underlying reason is the observed constancy of the speed of light.
>>> The Lorentz transformation (as we understand it NOW) describes the
>>> CONSEQUENCES of that MATHEMATICALLY.
>>
>> You cannot proof physics mathematically.
> 
> But you can.

No.
If nature uses mathematical methods, then we need to find out, what 
these methods are.

But we cannot tell nature how to operate.

So we could eventually mimic natural behavior by using similar 
mathematical principles as nature does itself somewhere at very low 
levels (supposed that nature actually uses mathematical methods).

But a mathematical model about a non mathematical phenomenon is not 
really a description of the natural 'machinery'. It would be a more or 
less valid approximation by means, that we regard as useful.

TH

> 
>> Spacetime might be flat or curved,
> 
> That is not a question of “might”.  The 1919 solar eclipse showed the
> bending of light.  Light does not travel in a curve unless there is a
> *physical* reason.

So spacetime is curved.

Case close and SRT is wrong.

(or what?)

>> but that is not a mathematical question,
> 
> Yes, it is.  Spacetime is first and foremost a mathematical construct.

Well, that is a question of debate.

I personally regard spacetime as real physical entity.

Our world -as we see it- is something, that I call 'structures' (of 
spacetime).

(the book I wrote is about 'structured spacetime'

https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dd8jz2tx_3gfzvqgd6 ).

> Which you would know if you understood what Minkowski said.
> 
>> but one, we should decide by observation of nature.
> 
> There is no contradiction .  Physics uses models to describe reality.  Those
> models need to allow for measurements that confirm or falsify the models, so
> they have produce numbers; they have to be mathematical.  Physics is one of
> the *exact* sciences, and you do not understand it at all.

Really is something different than a model.

You are actually claiming, the model would be more relevant than what 
model is modeling (the real world).

So: no, I do not agree.

TH

Thread

Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-22 14:26 -0700
  Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-23 16:43 +0200
    Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-23 18:08 +0200
      Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-23 21:45 -0700
        Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-24 11:42 +0200
          Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-24 11:21 -0700
          Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-24 16:52 -0700
            Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-25 22:31 +0200
              Re: Deep Thought mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-25 20:23 -0700
              Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-25 23:36 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 10:00 -0400
                Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-26 11:23 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-27 12:15 -0700
              Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-25 23:56 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-26 00:00 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought Daniel60 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2018-07-27 17:01 +1000
                Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-27 10:38 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-28 10:38 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-27 14:29 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-28 12:00 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-28 14:44 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-30 18:18 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-30 18:37 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-01 22:38 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-03 23:33 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-04 11:03 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-04 13:15 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-05 18:48 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-05 21:52 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-06 19:34 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-06 19:56 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-06 22:26 +0200
                Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-08-12 15:59 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-12 16:15 -0700
                Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-08-12 16:30 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-13 21:20 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-13 21:30 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-13 21:37 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-13 23:42 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-14 00:36 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-28 00:21 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-28 00:56 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Daniel60 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2018-08-28 19:23 +1000
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-29 00:01 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-28 23:58 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-29 11:09 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-29 20:24 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-29 13:39 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-30 03:43 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-29 20:43 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-31 00:52 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-08-29 13:58 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-30 03:48 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 18:09 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-30 04:36 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-08-29 21:12 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-08-29 21:17 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-30 14:49 -0700
        Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-24 21:19 +0200
          Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-24 13:04 -0700
            Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-25 03:36 +0200
              Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-24 22:44 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-07-25 17:52 -0700
          Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-24 16:41 -0700
          Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-24 16:54 -0700
  Re: Deep Thought benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-07-23 11:05 -0400
  Re: Deep Thought "C. Deifir" <cdf@dfr.net.inv> - 2018-07-23 21:18 +0100
    Re: Deep Thought mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-23 18:12 -0700
  Re: Deep Thought jgreenfield97@gmail.com - 2018-07-23 21:49 -0700
  Re: Deep Thought consequently7990662@gmail.com - 2018-07-24 13:28 -0700

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