Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #466968

Re: Deep Thought

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Deep Thought
Date	2018-08-05 18:48 +0200
Message-ID	<fsoo3dFqmbiU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <6a9f3c5f-3c16-960d-2a9d-a637c2bf7436@PointedEars.de> <fsek2aFi2q0U1@mid.individual.net> <c9cef16a-b2f5-04a5-9229-d9c0d9585ac3@PointedEars.de> <fsl8f7F2jcaU1@mid.individual.net> <3fa9e30a-03f6-b76c-62cb-144c69f77e18@PointedEars.de>

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Am 04.08.2018 um 13:15 schrieb Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
...

> ,-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Minkowski#Work_on_relativity
> |
> | Einstein at first viewed Minkowski's treatment as a mere mathematical
> | trick, before eventually realizing that a geometrical view of space–time
> | would be necessary in order to complete his own later work in general
> | relativity (1915).
> 
> Note the key words: “geometrical view”.
> 
>> So we can actually compare SRT (in the 1905 version, made by Einstein)
>> and Minkowski's work from 1908.
> 
> Yes, and we find that they are equivalent.
> 
>> There is a discrepancy and Minkowski was right and Einstein was wrong.
> 
> No, that is just your /idée fixe/ that you are unwilling or unable to prove,
> so your claims stand unsupported.
> 
>>>> and Minkowski helped his student Einstein.
>>>
>>> Indirectly, yes.  The four-vectors that originate from Minkowski’s idea of
>>> “space-time” (sic!) are easier to handle mathematically than the separate
>>> equations for space and time of the Lorentz transformation.  (Which is why
>>> we use them today.)
>>>
>>> They led Einstein to find out (after Minkowski died in 1909) that flat,
>>> Minkowski space(-)time is insufficient to describe our universe properly.
>>> Therefore, general relativity in 1915.  See my previous quotation and
>>> citation (which you have ignored).
>>
>> Well, now you agreed to what you said was wrong.
> 
> Not at all.
> 
>> If Einstein has rewritten his theory of relativity in 1915, based on
>> Minkowski's ideas, than he had revoked his on theory from 1905 and
>> replaced it with GR.
> 
> No, he used Minkowski’s mathematical formulation, the “geometrical view”,
> only.  Learn to read.

Well, Minkowski was a world class mathematician and Einstein a little 
slow in thinking.

So I would have a lot more confidence in the quality of his insight into 
physics than in Einstein's grip of mathematics.

>> GR is therefor correct and SRT is not.
> 
> No.
> 
>> That was, what I had written and what you rejected.
> 
> Because what you had written is wrong.
> 
>>>> Most likely he agreed, but that is not really relevant.
>>>
>>> But it *is* relevant.  You keep on claiming that Minkowski somehow said
>>> something else than Einstein.  He did not.  He was an early supporter of
>>> SRT, and just formulated the same thing differently mathematically.
>>
>> No, he used a different concept about space and time,
> 
> No, he did not.
> 
>> which could hardly be called being just mathematically convenient.
> 
> Therefore, you are wrong.

The main difference between Einsteins SRT and Minkowski's spacetime is, 
that Minkowski wanted to allow multiple timelines into arbitrary directions.

That was a HUGE difference in the concept between them.


>> If nature utilizes principles, that are somehow mathematical,
> 
> You are still stuck in your pre-medieval thinking.  Nature does not use
> mathematical principles.  WE use mathematical principles to DESCRIBE, and
> therefore PREDICT, Nature, because — for whatever reason – that works so well.


I ASSUME, that nature uses a relatively simple mechanism, which is very 
similar to certain mathematical constructs.

(see: https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dd8jz2tx_3gfzvqgd6 )

These constructs are called 'biquaternions' and 'Pauli algebra'.

This was an assumption, that seemingly works and which could be applied 
to all sort of questions in physics.

But it is actually difficult to use the method in our own models, 
because much of the input data cannot be known in principle and man has 
not enough computational power to compete with nature.

So we can only understand the principles.

But it should be interesting enough anyhow to know, with what kind of 
'machinery' nature actually works.

...


TH

Thread

Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-22 14:26 -0700
  Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-23 16:43 +0200
    Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-23 18:08 +0200
      Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-23 21:45 -0700
        Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-24 11:42 +0200
          Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-24 11:21 -0700
          Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-24 16:52 -0700
            Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-25 22:31 +0200
              Re: Deep Thought mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-25 20:23 -0700
              Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-25 23:36 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-07-26 10:00 -0400
                Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-26 11:23 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-27 12:15 -0700
              Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-25 23:56 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-26 00:00 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought Daniel60 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2018-07-27 17:01 +1000
                Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-27 10:38 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-28 10:38 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-27 14:29 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-28 12:00 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-28 14:44 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-07-30 18:18 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-30 18:37 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-01 22:38 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-03 23:33 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-04 11:03 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-04 13:15 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-05 18:48 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-05 21:52 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-06 19:34 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-06 19:56 +0200
                Re: Deep Thought Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-08-06 22:26 +0200
                Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-08-12 15:59 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-12 16:15 -0700
                Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-08-12 16:30 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-13 21:20 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-13 21:30 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-13 21:37 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-13 23:42 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-14 00:36 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-28 00:21 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-28 00:56 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Daniel60 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2018-08-28 19:23 +1000
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-29 00:01 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-28 23:58 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-29 11:09 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-29 20:24 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-29 13:39 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-30 03:43 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-08-29 20:43 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-31 00:52 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-08-29 13:58 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-30 03:48 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 18:09 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-30 04:36 +0200
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-08-29 21:12 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-08-29 21:17 -0700
                Re: Entropy converts black holes into SpaceTime. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-30 14:49 -0700
        Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-24 21:19 +0200
          Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-24 13:04 -0700
            Re: Deep Thought Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-07-25 03:36 +0200
              Re: Deep Thought The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-07-24 22:44 -0700
                Re: Deep Thought pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-07-25 17:52 -0700
          Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-24 16:41 -0700
          Re: Deep Thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-24 16:54 -0700
  Re: Deep Thought benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-07-23 11:05 -0400
  Re: Deep Thought "C. Deifir" <cdf@dfr.net.inv> - 2018-07-23 21:18 +0100
    Re: Deep Thought mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-07-23 18:12 -0700
  Re: Deep Thought jgreenfield97@gmail.com - 2018-07-23 21:49 -0700
  Re: Deep Thought consequently7990662@gmail.com - 2018-07-24 13:28 -0700

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