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Word of the day: “Papoose”

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  Word of the day: “Papoose” Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2024-08-31 19:54 +0100
    Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” dougstaples@gmx.com (LionelEdwards) - 2024-08-31 20:16 +0000
      Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2024-09-01 17:31 +0100
    Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2024-08-31 22:17 +0100
      Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-01 18:36 +0200
        Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> - 2024-09-01 09:59 -0700
        Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2024-09-01 11:43 -0600
        Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2024-09-01 15:39 -0400
          Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2024-09-01 23:04 -0400
            Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2024-09-02 00:22 -0400
              Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2024-09-02 11:56 +0100
                Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-02 23:57 +1000
                Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2024-09-02 10:52 -0400
                  Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-02 15:30 +0000
            Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2025-08-06 19:47 +0000
              Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2025-08-07 14:46 +0000
              Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2025-08-08 18:13 +0000
                Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2025-08-09 11:01 +1200
                  Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2025-08-09 02:14 +0000
                    Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2025-08-09 02:31 +0000
                      Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2025-08-10 22:36 +0000
          Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-02 12:33 +0000
            Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-03 00:01 +1000
            Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2024-09-02 11:45 -0400
              Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-03 05:11 +0200
            Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2024-09-03 08:31 +0100
              Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-03 17:53 +0200
                Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2024-09-03 15:33 -0600
                  Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? "Anders D. Nygaard" <news2012adn@gmail.com> - 2024-09-04 21:15 +0200
                Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-04 10:10 +1000
                  Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2024-09-04 16:26 +1200
                  Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-04 10:35 +0200
      Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2024-09-06 13:42 -0400
    Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2024-08-31 14:35 -0700
      Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2024-09-06 19:57 -0700
        Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2024-09-07 09:28 +0100
          Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-07 11:28 +0200
            Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2024-09-07 11:50 +0100
            Sprog Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-08 05:44 +0200
              Re: Sprog Chris Elvidge <chris@internal.net> - 2024-09-08 12:45 +0100
              Re: Sprog Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-08 21:59 +1000
                Re: Sprog Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-08 16:16 +0200
                Re: Sprog "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2024-09-08 14:32 +0100
                Re: Sprog Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-09 01:42 +0200
                  Re: Sprog Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2024-09-08 17:27 -0700
                    Re: Sprog jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-09 02:34 +0000
                    Re: Sprog jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-09 02:34 +0000
    Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2024-08-31 15:47 -0600
      Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-01 09:56 +1000
    Re: Word of the day: �Papoose� Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2024-08-31 18:45 -0400
    Re: Word of the day: “Papoose” Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-01 01:52 +0000

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#307848 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

> 
> DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:
> 
> > 
> > Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> posted:
> > 
> > > On 9/08/2025 6:13 a.m., DDeden wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:
> > > > 
> > > >>
> > > >> Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> posted:
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper
> > > >>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 18:36:10 +0200, Steve Hayes
> > > >>>> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 22:17:55 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
> > > >>>>>>> various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
> > > >>>>>>> refer to a child carrier.?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
> > > >>>>>>> currency outside the US.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>    The native-American "papoose" back-board child carrier
> > > >>>>>> was known to me in early childhood (and probably every
> > > >>>>>> other kid enthralled by "Cowboys and Indians".
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>     When we had children I rediscovered it all over again
> > > >>>>>> thanks to Mothercare. We had a baby back carrier called a
> > > >>>>>> papoose.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as
> > > >>>>> referring to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Please...write "some people".
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
> > > >>>> back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on
> > > >>>> a blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I thought that the baby would stay in the carrier when laid on
> > > >>> the ground.  I thought they followed the baby-handling tradition
> > > >>> of keeping them bound up.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I had not ever been challenged with an Indian baby on the
> > > >>> loose, and someone looking for a word to describe them.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  From the earlier discussion, I conclude that only the bound
> > > >>> baby is a papoose.
> > > >>   
> > > >> As I understand it, the baby in the papoose (porter?) was backstrapped to the parent, and for a rest it was hung on a branch or tilted against a tree trunk not laid flat on the ground except to change the moss/diaper.
> > > > 
> > > > Wikipedia claims that papoose meant child. Other Algonquin words for child are not similar to papoose.
> > > > 
> > > > Algonquin: papoose = child?
> > > 
> > > It's certainly not general Algonquian. Bright refers to its appearance 
> > > in a vocabulary of 1643, which almost certainly means Roger Williams' _A 
> > > Key into the Language of America_, and the language is Naragansett.
> > > 
> > 
> > Under Wikipedia Massachusett Pidgin English, I found some support:
> > pappoose,[14] 'baby.' Possibly from Narragansett pappoòs. Massachusett form is papeiss[25] (pâpeewees})[26] /paːpiːwiːs/}. Compare Mohegan-Pequot pápohs /paːpuːhs/.[27]
> > 
> > 27 papohs. (2012). Fielding, S. Mohegan Dictionary. Mohegan Tribe
> > 
> > Seems certain then, papoose was indeed baby, not cradleboard.
> > 
> 
> Cite at Mohegan Pequot dictionary
> 
> páhpohs, NA child, baby
> plural páhpohsak locative páhpohsuk
> Nuwiktamumun yo natawahuwôk, wipi côci nupásawômun páhpohs i nikun: 
> We have enjoyed this visit, but we must take our baby home.

The papV might parallel babV in English? Shared lineage or convergence?

Baby: late 14c., "infant, young child of either sex," short for baban (early 13c.), which probably is imitative of baby talk (see babble (v.)). In many languages the word means "old woman" (compare Russian babushka "grandmother," from baba "peasant woman"), and it is also sometimes a child's variant of papa "father."The simplest articulations, and those which are readiest caught by the infant mouth, are the syllables formed by the vowel a with the primary consonants of the labial and dental classes, especially the former ; ma, ba, pa, na, da, ta. Out of these, therefore, is very generally formed the limited vocabulary required at the earliest period of infant life comprising the names for father, mother, infant, breast, food. [Hensleigh Wedgwood, "A Dictionary of English Etymology," 1859

Child: Old English cild "fetus, infant, unborn or newly born person," from Proto-Germanic *kiltham (source also of Gothic kilþei "womb," inkilþo "pregnant;" Danish kuld "children of the same marriage;" Old Swedish kulder "litter;" Old English cildhama "womb," lit. "child-home"); it has no certain cognates outside Germanic. "App[arently] originally always used in relation to the mother as the 'fruit of the womb'" [Buck]

Kildhama @ OE: womb (child home {poetic?}), also, wamba @ OE : womb cf kom @ OD 
: cup-bowl (form). ~ kild+XyuAMbuA, xyUAMBuA, XyUAM



> > 
> > > > Boy. Mukkutchouks
> > > > Girl. Nunksqua
> > > > Infant, or child. Mukkie
> > > > Viewing page 7 of 20 for project 8323 | Smithsonian Digital Volunteers https://share.google/9b13kDhSL8K33p4cB
> > > > ---
> > > > [Algonquin English translator]
> > > > Baby. Ninige
> > > > Child  Ninigo
> > > > ---
> > > > [Proto-Algonquin English translator]
> > > > Child. awaᐧsi- na
> > > > Child  niᐧčyaᐧna na
> > > > Cree awaᐧsis child
> > > > Ojibwe awaᐧsišš child
> > > > ---
> > > > Waboose. baby rabbit
> > > > ---
> > > > child (a youth)      [Swadesh list]
> > > >   
> > > > abinoojiinh    (Ojibwa Algonquin)
> > > > pookáá     (Blackfoot Algonquin)
> > > > mimëns    (Munsee Lenape Algonquin).
> > > > eksà:'a (Mohawk Iroquois)
> > > > ayoli    (Cherokee Iroquois)
> > > > nakatseke    (Nataway Iroquois)
> > > > ---
> > > > 
> > > > 5ka baby carriers in Germany with dog teeth decoration
> > > >   
> > > > https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/5-000-year-old-burials-in-germany-hold-3-women-with-bedazzled-baby-carriers
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > If we go back much further in time, toddlers were piggyback riding on their parent's backs, with fingers and toes grasping scalp hair for anchorage.
> > > > 
> > >

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#306258 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:

>>So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
>>to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?
> 
> 
> Please...write "some people".
> 
> If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
> back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
> 
> However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
> blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
> 
> You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE 
"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments 
I have seen seems to think it means a child holder. 

Perhaps the OP could clarify. 







-- 
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

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#306261 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On 02/09/24 22:33, Steve Hayes wrote:

> The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that
> in AmE "papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US
> whose comments I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.

Not me. I knew that "papoose" meant a child, but until this thread I had
never heard of it meaning a child carrier.

-- 
Peter Moylan       peter@pmoylan.org    http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

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#306268 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 12:33:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>>So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
>>>to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?
>> 
>> 
>> Please...write "some people".
>> 
>> If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
>> back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
>> 
>> However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
>> blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
>> 
>> You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.
>
>The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE 
>"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments 
>I have seen seems to think it means a child holder. 
>
>Perhaps the OP could clarify. 

You have participated in this group long enough to know that a
dictionary cite does not at all indicate 100% or near-all usage of
some words.

That assumes that all Americans (in this case) look up a word to gain
the definition.  In fact, the majority of Americans gain a definition
by how the word is/was used in the instance(s) where they first or
commonly come across it.

This is especially true with non-common words.  Most - if not almost
all - Americans first came across "papoose" in some book or movie
where the context provided the meaning taken.

I don't think many (or even "any") Americans decided to look up the
word to determine if was the infant or the carrier or thought about
the term being used when the infant was not in carrier.

I think if you randomly stopped a number of Americans and asked
"What's a papoose?" the answers might be determined by the age of the
responder.

Older Americans, who first came across the word in a book or movie,
would opt for the "Indian baby carried on the mother's back".  

Younger Americans, who are used to seeing people with a baby carrier
strapped to their body, would opt for "A baby carrier" because the
concept is the same as what we currently see.  

Older Americans, by the way, are just as familiar with seeing people
with a baby carrier strapped to their bodies, but their definition is
fixed on first context.  

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#306277 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 11:45:58 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 12:33:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>>>So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
>>>>to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please...write "some people".
>>> 
>>> If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
>>> back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
>>> 
>>> However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
>>> blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
>>> 
>>> You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.
>>
>>The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE 
>>"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments 
>>I have seen seems to think it means a child holder. 
>>
>>Perhaps the OP could clarify. 
>
>You have participated in this group long enough to know that a
>dictionary cite does not at all indicate 100% or near-all usage of
>some words.
>
>That assumes that all Americans (in this case) look up a word to gain
>the definition.  In fact, the majority of Americans gain a definition
>by how the word is/was used in the instance(s) where they first or
>commonly come across it.

Yes, but I have also been in this group long enough to know that
dictionaries often reflect rather than determine popular usage. 

Dictionaries go to people as much as, if not more than, people go to
dictionaries. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#306280 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

 Ar an dara lá de mí Méan Fómhair, scríobh Steve Hayes: 

 > On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:
 > 
 > >>So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
 > >>to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?
 > > 
 > > 
 > > Please...write "some people".
 > > 
 > > If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
 > > back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
 > > 
 > > However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
 > > blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
 > > 
 > > You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.
 > 
 > The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE 
 > "papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments 
 > I have seen seems to think it means a child holder. 

The OP described that the word was new to him, explained that he had come
across it in a context where it described a child holder, and pasted the
definition from Wikipedia, which prioritises the “child” meaning. The OP has no
strong feelings on whether it means a child or a child holder, but comments
that the child holder meaning is more useful in that this type of
tightly-binding back-boarded structure has no other common word to describe it.

-- 
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

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#306287 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On Tue, 03 Sep 2024 08:31:50 +0100, Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net>
wrote:

>
> Ar an dara lá de mí Méan Fómhair, scríobh Steve Hayes: 
>
> > On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > 
> > >>So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
> > >>to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please...write "some people".
> > > 
> > > If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
> > > back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
> > > 
> > > However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
> > > blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
> > > 
> > > You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.
> > 
> > The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE 
> > "papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments 
> > I have seen seems to think it means a child holder. 
>
>The OP described that the word was new to him, explained that he had come
>across it in a context where it described a child holder, and pasted the
>definition from Wikipedia, which prioritises the “child” meaning. The OP has no
>strong feelings on whether it means a child or a child holder, but comments
>that the child holder meaning is more useful in that this type of
>tightly-binding back-boarded structure has no other common word to describe it.

Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
the "child" usage was common in the USA, and, as Peter Moylan points
out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as a
child holder. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#306293 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On 2024-09-03 09:53, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Sep 2024 08:31:50 +0100, Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net>
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Ar an dara lá de mí Méan Fómhair, scríobh Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>>> So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
>>>>> to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please...write "some people".
>>>>
>>>> If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
>>>> back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
>>>>
>>>> However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
>>>> blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
>>>>
>>>> You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.
>>>
>>> The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE
>>> "papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments
>>> I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.
>>
>> The OP described that the word was new to him, explained that he had come
>> across it in a context where it described a child holder, and pasted the
>> definition from Wikipedia, which prioritises the “child” meaning. The OP has no
>> strong feelings on whether it means a child or a child holder, but comments
>> that the child holder meaning is more useful in that this type of
>> tightly-binding back-boarded structure has no other common word to describe it.
> 
> Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
> the "child" usage was common in the USA,

And Canada, methinks.

> and, as Peter Moylan points
> out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as a
> child holder.



-- 
“Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having 
to get the facts.”
	—E. B. White

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#306312 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

Den 03-09-2024 kl. 23:33 skrev lar3ryca:
> On 2024-09-03 09:53, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Sep 2024 08:31:50 +0100, Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ar an dara lá de mí Méan Fómhair, scríobh Steve Hayes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as 
>>>>>> referring
>>>>>> to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please...write "some people".
>>>>>
>>>>> If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
>>>>> back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby 
>>>>> on a
>>>>> blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.
>>>>
>>>> The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that 
>>>> in AmE
>>>> "papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose 
>>>> comments
>>>> I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.
>>>
>>> The OP described that the word was new to him, explained that he had 
>>> come
>>> across it in a context where it described a child holder, and pasted the
>>> definition from Wikipedia, which prioritises the “child” meaning. The 
>>> OP has no
>>> strong feelings on whether it means a child or a child holder, but 
>>> comments
>>> that the child holder meaning is more useful in that this type of
>>> tightly-binding back-boarded structure has no other common word to 
>>> describe it.
>>
>> Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
>> the "child" usage was common in the USA,
> 
> And Canada, methinks.

And Denmark. I - like another poster - learned brave/squaw/papoose
at an early age. Never had any occasion to use it, though.

/Anders, Denmark

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#306299 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On 04/09/24 01:53, Steve Hayes wrote:

> Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
> the "child" usage was common in the USA, and, as Peter Moylan points
> out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as
> a child holder.

Well, I'm not sure about "common in Australia". The word is rare here in
either meaning; we know it only from North American sources.

I should also point out that my youngest child is 36 years old, so my
understanding of child carriers is a long way out of date. I do have
grandchildren, but I carry them in child seats that are installed over
the back seats of my car.

-- 
Peter Moylan       peter@pmoylan.org    http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

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#306304 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On 4/09/2024 12:10 p.m., Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 04/09/24 01:53, Steve Hayes wrote:
> 
>> Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
>> the "child" usage was common in the USA, and, as Peter Moylan points
>> out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as
>> a child holder.
> 
> Well, I'm not sure about "common in Australia". The word is rare here in
> either meaning; we know it only from North American sources.

And let me point out that the North Americans themselves know it only 
from "certain sources". It's not an everyday word. It's part of a 
special vocabulary they have read or seen used (historically) with 
reference to Indians (along with "squaw", "brave", "wampum", "how!" and 
others). That's the reason for a certain vagueness about its meaning.
> 
> I should also point out that my youngest child is 36 years old, so my
> understanding of child carriers is a long way out of date. I do have
> grandchildren, but I carry them in child seats that are installed over
> the back seats of my car.
> 

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#306308 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 10:10:55 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:

>On 04/09/24 01:53, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
>> the "child" usage was common in the USA, and, as Peter Moylan points
>> out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as
>> a child holder.
>
>Well, I'm not sure about "common in Australia". The word is rare here in
>either meaning; we know it only from North American sources.
>
>I should also point out that my youngest child is 36 years old, so my
>understanding of child carriers is a long way out of date. I do have
>grandchildren, but I carry them in child seats that are installed over
>the back seats of my car.

Our youngest is 43, and the child for whom we were given the
otjivereko is now 47, and that was the time when we were most
interested in childholders. Michael Frayn wrote an amusing article
about them in "The Observer", I think I may still have it somewhere.
If I find it I will look to see if he mentions papooses. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#306343 — Re: Word of the day: ?Papoose?

When I first heard the word "papoose" in the forties, it meant a
swaddled infant in a backpack.

So both the "child" sense and the "carrier" sense are new to me.

-- 
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier, 
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at centurylink dot net      http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

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#306233

Aidan Kehoe asserted that:
> I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning from
> Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it 
> still for a procedure in Emergency Medicine:
>
> “Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
> English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless 
> of tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
> endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
> Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, helping
> to popularize it.[3]
> [...]
> Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
> various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
> refer to a child carrier.”
>
> Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
> currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?

I think it is still around in US, and it was very much around in the 
'60s and before, mainly as a reference to the board-and-bundle 
arrangement.  I don't think it is as frowned upon as "squaw", but 
probably some people consider it to be no longer acceptable.

Also, kids these day may think in terms of Grogu's hover pod.

/dps


-- 
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
   Bill in Vancouver

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#306344

Just this Saturday, Snidely puzzled about:
> Aidan Kehoe asserted that:
>> I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning 
>> from
>> Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it 
>> still for a procedure in Emergency Medicine:
>>
>> “Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
>> English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless 
>> of tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
>> endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
>> Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, 
>> helping
>> to popularize it.[3]
>> [...]
>> Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known 
>> by
>> various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
>> refer to a child carrier.”
>>
>> Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
>> currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?
>
> I think it is still around in US, and it was very much around in the '60s and 
> before, mainly as a reference to the board-and-bundle arrangement.  I don't 
> think it is as frowned upon as "squaw", but probably some people consider it 
> to be no longer acceptable.
>
> Also, kids these day may think in terms of Grogu's hover pod.

I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their thirties, 
are not familiar with "papoose".  For another thread, note that they 
are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".

/dps

-- 
Let's celebrate Macaronesia

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#306345

 Ar an séiú lá de mí Méan Fómhair, scríobh Snidely: 

 > [...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
 > thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
 > they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".

I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re in
the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.

-- 
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

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#306346

Aidan Kehoe wrote:

>  > [...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
>  > thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
>  > they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".
> 
> I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re in
> the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.

While Paul Juhl lived, he began writing in dk.kultur.sprog (sprog=
language), and in one of his first messages he wrote a little joke about
"sprog". He had to explain the word which I didn't know then. He learned
british English in school, but I doubt that he knew "sprog" then. He
spent his adult life (14+) in Canada.

-- 
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

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#306347

 Ar an seachtú lá de mí Méan Fómhair, scríobh Bertel Lund Hansen: 

 > Aidan Kehoe wrote:
 > 
 > >  > [...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
 > >  > thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
 > >  > they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".
 > > 
 > > I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re
 > > in the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.
 > 
 > While Paul Juhl lived, he began writing in dk.kultur.sprog (sprog=
 > language), and in one of his first messages he wrote a little joke about
 > "sprog". He had to explain the word which I didn't know then. He learned
 > british English in school, but I doubt that he knew "sprog" then. He
 > spent his adult life (14+) in Canada.

There’s a very entertaining Reddit user who uses “Poem_for_your_Sprog” as a
nick.

https://old.reddit.com/user/Poem_for_your_Sprog

He or she comes up with filthy, relevant rhymes very quickly after someone else
posts. Most of them are not appropriate for anyone’s sprog.

-- 
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

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#306353 — Sprog

On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 11:28:10 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>Aidan Kehoe wrote:
>
>>  > [...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
>>  > thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
>>  > they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".
>> 
>> I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re in
>> the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.
>
>While Paul Juhl lived, he began writing in dk.kultur.sprog (sprog=
>language), and in one of his first messages he wrote a little joke about
>"sprog". He had to explain the word which I didn't know then. He learned
>british English in school, but I doubt that he knew "sprog" then. He
>spent his adult life (14+) in Canada.

At the University of Natal in the 1960s new mail students were called
sprogs, and new female students were called sprigs.

I vaguely recall that "sprog" was also used to refer to a kind of
sailing vessel. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#306354 — Re: Sprog

On 08/09/2024 at 04:44, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 11:28:10 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> 
>> Aidan Kehoe wrote:
>>
>>>   > [...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
>>>   > thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
>>>   > they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".
>>>
>>> I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re in
>>> the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.
>>
>> While Paul Juhl lived, he began writing in dk.kultur.sprog (sprog=
>> language), and in one of his first messages he wrote a little joke about
>> "sprog". He had to explain the word which I didn't know then. He learned
>> british English in school, but I doubt that he knew "sprog" then. He
>> spent his adult life (14+) in Canada.
> 
> At the University of Natal in the 1960s new mail students were called
> sprogs, and new female students were called sprigs.

What were the male students called?

> 
> I vaguely recall that "sprog" was also used to refer to a kind of
> sailing vessel.
> 
> 



-- 
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT INSTIGATE REVOLUTION

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