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10 mega-watt hours

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  10 mega-watt hours Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-07 11:16 -0700
    Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-10-07 14:13 -0500
      Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2016-10-07 12:41 -0700
        Re: 10 mega-watt hours makolber@yahoo.com - 2016-10-07 13:08 -0700
          Re: 10 mega-watt hours Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-07 14:27 -0700
        Re: 10 mega-watt hours Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-07 14:09 -0700
          Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2016-10-07 14:18 -0700
            Re: 10 mega-watt hours Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> - 2016-10-07 22:40 +0000
              Re: 10 mega-watt hours Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-07 16:42 -0700
                Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2016-10-07 17:35 -0700
                  Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-10-08 09:09 -0700
                    Re: 10 mega-watt hours John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2016-10-08 09:53 -0700
                      Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-10-08 11:10 -0700
                    Re: 10 mega-watt hours Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net> - 2016-10-09 12:30 -0400
                      Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-10-09 10:26 -0700
                  Re: 10 mega-watt hours Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> - 2016-10-08 23:38 +0000
                    Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-10-08 18:13 -0700
                      Re: 10 mega-watt hours Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> - 2016-10-09 05:02 +0000
                        Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-10-08 23:29 -0700
            Re: 10 mega-watt hours Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2016-10-09 11:42 +1100
    Re: 10 mega-watt hours Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2016-10-07 17:30 -0400
      Re: 10 mega-watt hours Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-07 17:14 -0700
        Re: 10 mega-watt hours Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-10-11 10:28 -0500
          heatpump vs furnace Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-12 05:57 -0700
            Re: heatpump vs furnace bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2016-10-12 07:33 -0700
              Re: heatpump vs furnace "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2016-10-12 17:41 -0700
                Re: heatpump vs furnace bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2016-10-12 18:26 -0700
                  Re: heatpump vs furnace "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2016-10-13 06:45 -0700
                Re: heatpump vs furnace Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-12 18:57 -0700
                  Re: heatpump vs furnace bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2016-10-12 22:36 -0700
                    Re: heatpump vs furnace Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-13 03:57 -0700
            Re: heatpump vs furnace Ecnerwal <MyNameForward@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> - 2016-10-12 10:33 -0400
              Re: heatpump vs furnace Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-12 09:46 -0700
                Re: heatpump vs furnace Ecnerwal <MyNameForward@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> - 2016-10-12 14:39 -0400
            Re: heatpump vs furnace Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2016-10-12 08:10 -0700
              Re: heatpump vs furnace Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-12 09:39 -0700
            Re: heatpump vs furnace makolber@yahoo.com - 2016-10-12 13:02 -0700
              Re: heatpump vs furnace Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-13 06:10 -0700
            Re: heatpump vs furnace "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2016-10-15 14:47 +1000
              Re: heatpump vs furnace krw <krw@nowhere.com> - 2016-10-15 10:56 -0400
                Re: heatpump vs furnace "David Eather" <eather@tpg.com.au> - 2016-10-17 12:47 +1000
                  Re: heatpump vs furnace krw <krw@nowhere.com> - 2016-10-17 19:50 -0400
    Re: 10 mega-watt hours sean.c4s.vn@gmail.com - 2016-10-12 06:13 -0700
    Re: 10 mega-watt hours Yzordderrex <powersupplyguy@netzero.net> - 2016-10-13 07:52 -0700
      Re: 10 mega-watt hours Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-13 08:09 -0700
        Re: 10 mega-watt hours Yzordderrex <powersupplyguy@netzero.net> - 2016-10-14 03:05 -0700
          Re: 10 mega-watt hours Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-10-14 05:52 -0700

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#430567 — 10 mega-watt hours

 The production meter for our solar roof just
 ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
 serious amount of power to generate in the
 9.5 months since switching on the system.
 https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/WAJT773668/overview


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#430574

Winfield Hill wrote:

>  The production meter for our solar roof just
>  ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
>  serious amount of power to generate in the
>  9.5 months since switching on the system.
>  https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/WAJT773668/overview
> 
> 
So, are they paying you for the energy, or does enphase make all the money?

Jon

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#430580

On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 14:13:31 -0500, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
wrote:

>Winfield Hill wrote:
>
>>  The production meter for our solar roof just
>>  ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
>>  serious amount of power to generate in the
>>  9.5 months since switching on the system.
>>  https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/WAJT773668/overview
>> 
>> 
>So, are they paying you for the energy, or does enphase make all the money?
>
>Jon

It's all subsidized by us sucker taxpayers :-(
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

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#430588

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 3:41:58 PM UTC-4, Jim Thompson wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 14:13:31 -0500, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
> wrote:
> 
> >Winfield Hill wrote:
> >
> >>  The production meter for our solar roof just
> >>  ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
> >>  serious amount of power to generate in the
> >>  9.5 months since switching on the system.

did I do the math right?

Thats about $157 worth of electricity per month?

or about $2k per year.

How much did the system cost you?

How much did it cost us  taxpayers?

m

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#430592

makolber@yahoo.com wrote...
>
>>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>
>>>>  The production meter for our solar roof just
>>>>  ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
>>>>  serious amount of power to generate in the
>>>>  9.5 months since switching on the system.
>
> did I do the math right?
> That's about $157 worth of electricity per month?
> or about $2k per year.

 Almost, we pay about $0.20/kWh, so 10MWh = $2k
 and over 12 months we might save $2.2 to 2.3k.

> How much did the system cost you?  A. $34k
>
> How much did it cost us taxpayers?

 $10k.  The 30% Residential Energy Credit
 program** was recently extended a few more
 years by the Republican house and senate.

 Anyway, my interest is in the power generated;
 it's sobering to realize those pieces of glass
 on my roof are making so much energy.

 ** tax form 5695


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#430589

Jim Thompson wrote...
>
>On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 14:13:31 -0500, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
>wrote:
>
>>Winfield Hill wrote:
>>
>>>  The production meter for our solar roof just
>>>  ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
>>>  serious amount of power to generate in the
>>>  9.5 months since switching on the system.
>>>  https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/WAJT773668/overview
>> 
>> So, are they paying you for the energy, or does
>> enphase make all the money?

 I purchased the system, and own its electricity,
 enphase server access is part of my purchase.

> It's all subsidized by us sucker taxpayers :-(

 True, in part, but may I point out that you enjoy
 cheap electricity from a dam built by US taxpayers.
 We don't have anything like that here.  Most of
 our energy is subsidized in one way or another.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#430591

On 7 Oct 2016 14:09:49 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

>Jim Thompson wrote...
>>
>>On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 14:13:31 -0500, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>
>>>>  The production meter for our solar roof just
>>>>  ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
>>>>  serious amount of power to generate in the
>>>>  9.5 months since switching on the system.
>>>>  https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/WAJT773668/overview
>>> 
>>> So, are they paying you for the energy, or does
>>> enphase make all the money?
>
> I purchased the system, and own its electricity,
> enphase server access is part of my purchase.
>
>> It's all subsidized by us sucker taxpayers :-(
>
> True, in part, but may I point out that you enjoy
> cheap electricity from a dam built by US taxpayers.
> We don't have anything like that here.  Most of
> our energy is subsidized in one way or another.

Actually, no.  My electricity comes from nuclear, coal and
natural-gas-fired plants.
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

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#430598

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
> On 7 Oct 2016 14:09:49 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
> 
>> Jim Thompson wrote...
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 14:13:31 -0500, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> The production meter for our solar roof just
>>>>> ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
>>>>> serious amount of power to generate in the
>>>>> 9.5 months since switching on the system.
>>>>> https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/WAJT773668/overview
>>>> 
>>>> So, are they paying you for the energy, or does
>>>> enphase make all the money?
>> 
>> I purchased the system, and own its electricity,
>> enphase server access is part of my purchase.
>> 
>>> It's all subsidized by us sucker taxpayers :-(
>> 
>> True, in part, but may I point out that you enjoy
>> cheap electricity from a dam built by US taxpayers.
>> We don't have anything like that here.  Most of
>> our energy is subsidized in one way or another.
> 
> Actually, no.  My electricity comes from nuclear, coal and
> natural-gas-fired plants.
> 		
>                                         ...Jim Thompson

As well as wind, solar, hydro and possibly geothermal, but don't tell
anyone. 

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#430609

Ralph Barone wrote...
> Jim Thompson wrote:
>> 
>> Actually, no.  My electricity comes from nuclear,
>> coal and natural-gas-fired plants.
>
> As well as wind, solar, hydro and possibly
> geothermal, but don't tell anyone. 

 Arizona is a big solar state.  A relative works
 for SunCity.  After Nevada's shutdown his entire
 outfit moved to Tuscon, installing new systems.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#430614

On 7 Oct 2016 16:42:01 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

>Ralph Barone wrote...
>> Jim Thompson wrote:
>>> 
>>> Actually, no.  My electricity comes from nuclear,
>>> coal and natural-gas-fired plants.
>>
>> As well as wind, solar, hydro and possibly
>> geothermal, but don't tell anyone.

Wind?  Where?
 
>
> Arizona is a big solar state.  A relative works
> for SunCity.  After Nevada's shutdown his entire
> outfit moved to Tuscon, installing new systems.

And the AG is cracking down on the solar scams.
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

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#430646

On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 17:35:20 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>Wind?  Where?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms_in_the_United_States>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_States>
The really productive states are North Dakota and Wyoming, mostly in
farm and grazing areas.   Arizona is not on the list.

<http://www.caiso.com/Pages/TodaysOutlook.aspx>
If you look at the 2nd graph (Renewables), you'll see the current
figures for various forms of non-fossil fuel power production,
including wind, for most of northern California.  At the moment, wind
power production is near zero, probably because there's no wind.  You
can see what the wind is doing at:
<https://www.windytv.com/?34.175,-111.621,7>
<https://www.windfinder.com/report/phoenix_casas_del_norte>

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#430648

On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 09:09:59 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 17:35:20 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>Wind?  Where?
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms_in_the_United_States>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_States>
>The really productive states are North Dakota and Wyoming, mostly in
>farm and grazing areas.   Arizona is not on the list.
>
><http://www.caiso.com/Pages/TodaysOutlook.aspx>
>If you look at the 2nd graph (Renewables), you'll see the current
>figures for various forms of non-fossil fuel power production,
>including wind, for most of northern California.  At the moment, wind
>power production is near zero, probably because there's no wind.  You
>can see what the wind is doing at:
><https://www.windytv.com/?34.175,-111.621,7>

That is so cool. When we have a forest fire somewhere nearby, I'll be
able to predict if we'll get smoke.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

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#430655

On Sat, 08 Oct 2016 09:53:46 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>>You
>>can see what the wind is doing at:
>><https://www.windytv.com/?34.175,-111.621,7>

>That is so cool. When we have a forest fire somewhere nearby, I'll be
>able to predict if we'll get smoke.

More, with different areas of interest and displays:
<https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-120.48,38.74,3000/loc=-122.080,37.883>

Try the various display options on the left menu.  Some are slow to
load:
<http://www.sailflow.com/map#37.767,-122.517,11,18>
<https://www.windfinder.com/weather-maps/superforecast/#10/37.7827/-122.3348>
<https://www.google.com/#q=wind+map+forecast+animation>
All the one's I've seen use data from the National Digital Forecast
Database.
<http://ndfd.weather.gov/technical.htm>

I asked some of the local sailors if they use such wind maps.  The
answers varied, but most said that they might use forecast data for
wide area wind predictions, but not for wind direction and velocity
near coastal features or at low wind velocities.  I've verified the
problem with local weather stations.  If there's local turbulence or
<5kts, the forecasts and predictions are terrible.  At best, they
represent an average for a large area.

In 2008, we had the Martin Fire:
<https://localwiki.org/santacruz/Martin_Fire>
I helped maintain a radio site in the area which conveniently included
a weather station.  The fire services didn't trust the forecast wind
data, and was looking for accurate wind direction and velocity
indicators.  Our station was the best, with the others either buried
in canyons located too far from the fire.  You might think about
establishing a community weather station with proper siting and
calibration.  (Links, details, recommendations on request).

For wind power, please note that power produced increases with the
cube of the wind velocity.  In other words, small changes in wind
speed have a huge effect on the power output.  


-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#430721

On 10/8/2016 12:09 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> ...   You
> can see what the wind is doing at:
> <https://www.windytv.com/?34.175,-111.621,7> ...


I truncated it to https://www.windytv.com & it knew where I lived 
(Massachusetts), so it showed the hurricane.  Awesome.

And when I turned on the "Pressure" overlay, you could see the wind 
flowing down the gradients.  Especially dramatic at the eye.

Thanks,
Bob

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#430724

On Sun, 09 Oct 2016 12:30:29 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
<BobEngelhardt@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 10/8/2016 12:09 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> ...   You
>> can see what the wind is doing at:
>> <https://www.windytv.com/?34.175,-111.621,7> ...
>
>
>I truncated it to https://www.windytv.com & it knew where I lived 
>(Massachusetts), so it showed the hurricane.  Awesome.
>
>And when I turned on the "Pressure" overlay, you could see the wind 
>flowing down the gradients.  Especially dramatic at the eye.

You might also try looking at the wind at different altitudes.  Above
about 8,000 meters, you'll start to see the jet stream.  It's really
obvious at 13,500 meters (highest altitude available).

Also, if you click on the arrow in the lower left corner, the display
will fast forward into wind forecasts for the next 5 to 8 days.  It's
kinda interesting to see the changing wind patterns with time,
especially if there's a storm nearby or passing through.

If you zoom in to your area, the display will show various weather
stations.  These tend to be the better weather stations from the
University of Utah MESONET network.  It offers local wind history
graphs and forecasts.
<http://mesowest.utah.edu>

Have fun...

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#430667

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
> On 7 Oct 2016 16:42:01 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
> 
>> Ralph Barone wrote...
>>> Jim Thompson wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Actually, no.  My electricity comes from nuclear,
>>>> coal and natural-gas-fired plants.
>>> 
>>> As well as wind, solar, hydro and possibly
>>> geothermal, but don't tell anyone.
> 
> Wind?  Where?
>  
>> 
>> Arizona is a big solar state.  A relative works
>> for SunCity.  After Nevada's shutdown his entire
>> outfit moved to Tuscon, installing new systems.
> 
> And the AG is cracking down on the solar scams.
> 		
>                                         ...Jim Thompson

Arizona is not a little electrical island. It is interconnected with the
entire West Coast and electricity generated in numerous ways is bought and
sold across the entire interconnection. So saying that "your" electricity
comes only from the generators you see near your house is a wee bit
inaccurate to say the least. 

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#430672

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 23:38:06 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ralph@invalid.com> wrote:

>Arizona is not a little electrical island. It is interconnected with the
>entire West Coast and electricity generated in numerous ways is bought and
>sold across the entire interconnection.

Yep, Arizona is a very well connected, although it's not with the
entire left coast:
<http://www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/CleanGrid/EIMOverview.aspx>
The "Energy Imbalance Market" is legal way to resell cheap surplus
renewable energy among it's members without being accused of running a
price fixing cartel.  It also helps its members comply with various
Federal regulations.  I expect the EIM to grow to other utilities.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#430682

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 23:38:06 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> Arizona is not a little electrical island. It is interconnected with the
>> entire West Coast and electricity generated in numerous ways is bought and
>> sold across the entire interconnection.
> 
> Yep, Arizona is a very well connected, although it's not with the
> entire left coast:
> <http://www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/CleanGrid/EIMOverview.aspx>
> The "Energy Imbalance Market" is legal way to resell cheap surplus
> renewable energy among it's members without being accused of running a
> price fixing cartel.  It also helps its members comply with various
> Federal regulations.  I expect the EIM to grow to other utilities.
> 

Note that the EIM is not the whole electricity market, but just one way to
sell energy. Typically there is a "day ahead" market and an "hour ahead"
market. EIM seems to provide an automated solution for even faster response
to accommodate intermittent resources (ie: wind and solar).  However, If
Arizona isn't currently taking advantage of cheap Pacific Northwest hydro
power in the spring, they're wasting their customers' money. And likewise,
the utilities with easily dispatchable generation and available storage
(again, read hydro) are buying up cheap nuclear power at night and
reselling it as hydro during the day. 

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#430686

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 05:02:00 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ralph@invalid.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 23:38:06 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>> <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Arizona is not a little electrical island. It is interconnected with the
>>> entire West Coast and electricity generated in numerous ways is bought and
>>> sold across the entire interconnection.
>> 
>> Yep, Arizona is a very well connected, although it's not with the
>> entire left coast:
>> <http://www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/CleanGrid/EIMOverview.aspx>
>> The "Energy Imbalance Market" is a legal way to resell cheap surplus
>> renewable energy among it's members without being accused of running a
>> price fixing cartel.  It also helps its members comply with various
>> Federal regulations.  I expect the EIM to grow to other utilities.

>Note that the EIM is not the whole electricity market, but just one way to
>sell energy. Typically there is a "day ahead" market and an "hour ahead"
>market. EIM seems to provide an automated solution for even faster response
>to accommodate intermittent resources (ie: wind and solar).  

That's exactly what EIM does, except the variations are mostly in the
demand, not the supply.  The faster response time allows it to deal
with outages, storm failures, accidents, and other supply problems
almost on a real time basis.  The lessens the requirements to have
surplus capacity available and online just in case something goes
down.  If you look at the CalISO site, the graphs mostly emphasize
their ability to predict the demand.  It also shows up in the "Net
Demand" curve, which shows the effect of a variable renewable supply.
<http://www.caiso.com/Pages/TodaysOutlook.aspx#Net%20Demand>
<http://www.caiso.com/Documents/FlexibleResourcesHelpRenewables_FastFacts.pdf>
Although it's not directly mentioned, such instant response to changes
in supply availability and load are key components of the "smart
grid".

Besides CalISO, there are also other such electric market operators:
<http://www.iso-ne.com>  Left Coast
<https://www.spp.org>  North Dakota through northern Texas.
<http://www.pjm.com>  Penn, Ohio, Virginia, etc
<http://www.ercot.com>  Texas
<http://www.nyiso.com>  New York State
<https://www.misoenergy.org>  Midwest
The "about" page on the various web sites usually has a map of the
areas covered.  It's interesting to watch the large variations in spot
prices for electricity.

>However, If
>Arizona isn't currently taking advantage of cheap Pacific Northwest hydro
>power in the spring, they're wasting their customers' money. And likewise,
>the utilities with easily dispatchable generation and available storage
>(again, read hydro) are buying up cheap nuclear power at night and
>reselling it as hydro during the day. 

In a drought, hydro isn't exactly a bargain.  It's quite seasonal and
much cheaper after the winter rains.  For example, Lake Mead (Hoover
Dam) is currently 37% of capacity and the Colorado River system less
Lake Mead is at 51% of capacity.
<http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/g4000/weekly.pdf>
I'm too lazy to dig out numbers for Columbia River capacity, but my
understanding is that they're doing much better than the Colorado
River.



-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#430671

On 08/10/2016 08:18, Jim Thompson wrote:
> On 7 Oct 2016 14:09:49 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Jim Thompson wrote...
>>>
>>> On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 14:13:31 -0500, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  The production meter for our solar roof just
>>>>>  ticked over past 10MWh.  That's a pretty
>>>>>  serious amount of power to generate in the
>>>>>  9.5 months since switching on the system.
>>>>>  https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/WAJT773668/overview
>>>>
>>>> So, are they paying you for the energy, or does
>>>> enphase make all the money?
>>
>> I purchased the system, and own its electricity,
>> enphase server access is part of my purchase.
>>
>>> It's all subsidized by us sucker taxpayers :-(
>>
>> True, in part, but may I point out that you enjoy
>> cheap electricity from a dam built by US taxpayers.
>> We don't have anything like that here.  Most of
>> our energy is subsidized in one way or another.
>
> Actually, no.  My electricity comes from nuclear, coal and
> natural-gas-fired plants.
> 		
>                                         ...Jim Thompson
>

Is there a special "brown power" tarif? I'm thinking of the coal-roller 
equivalent of the "green power" tarifs (where the utility charges you 
extra and promises to only sell you renewable energy, and theoretically 
requires them to also purchase that much renewable energy), but the 
exact opposite, guaranteed 100% brown coal power. I guess there could be 
some sort of market for a "Brown Power" tarif, for Jim and these guys:
https://youtu.be/AETpNL_LaIc?t=110
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT_psrwS39c

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