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"Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke

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  "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> - 2018-08-12 17:02 -0700
    Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 12:10 -0700
      Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 14:31 -0500
      Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-08-13 20:25 +0000
        Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-08-13 21:27 +0000
          Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-08-13 14:49 -0700
            Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-08-13 23:41 +0000
              Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 21:57 -0400
      Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke - "Death and the Senator" a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> - 2018-08-13 19:32 -0700
      Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke desiegel60@gmail.com - 2018-08-14 13:14 -0700
        Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-08-14 20:40 +0000
          Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-08-31 07:17 -0500
        Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 12:42 -0700
    Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke frank.scrooby@gmail.com - 2018-08-15 00:26 -0700
      Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-08-15 01:18 -0700
        Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke frank.scrooby@gmail.com - 2018-08-15 01:53 -0700
          Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-08-15 02:11 -0700
            Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke frank.scrooby@gmail.com - 2018-08-15 03:35 -0700
            Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 10:11 -0400
              Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-08-15 13:15 -0700
                Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 10:17 -0400
            Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2018-08-15 16:57 -0700
              Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-08-16 00:11 +0000
              Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-08-16 00:25 +0000
                Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke desiegel60@gmail.com - 2018-08-16 09:47 -0700
                  Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke - into stowaway a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> - 2018-09-03 20:10 -0700
                    Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke - into stowaway a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> - 2018-09-03 20:38 -0700
          Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 07:27 -0700
          Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-08-15 13:06 -0700
          Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-08-15 15:56 -0700
          Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 12:22 -0500
            Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-08-16 16:16 -0700
      Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-08-15 13:57 +0000
        Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-08-15 15:49 -0700

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#496542 — "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke

Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
"desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke

That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
It was quite interesting.

I read it from here:
http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf

One can listen to it (Helps me keep on track) from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQHwIdST2PQ

And here, is a synopsis of it:
http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html

"Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
early evolution.
The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."

or
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden

one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
(and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
be pleasantly surprised."

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#496574

On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:02:51 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:
> Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
> "desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
> 
> That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
> It was quite interesting.
> 
> I read it from here:
> http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
> 
> One can listen to it (Helps me keep on track) from here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQHwIdST2PQ
> 
> And here, is a synopsis of it:
> http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
> 
> "Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
> Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
> would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
> of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
> of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
> scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
> and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
> early evolution.
> The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
> instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
> 
> or
> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
> 
> one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
> A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
> (and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
> of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
> the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
> be pleasantly surprised."

In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and quite different from his usual work.

"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after.  This doesn't - as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.

Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer.  If so, it worked.  He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his fiction writing time.

William Hyde

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#496577

On 2018-08-13 14:10, William Hyde wrote:


> In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and quite different from his usual work.
> 
> "Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after.  This doesn't - as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.

I encountered all three of these in this collection:

<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?34358>

I'm not normally a big Clarke fan, but these stories were all top-notch.

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
Zechariah 7:10

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#496584

In article <265cc5c8-29cd-4d20-893e-033512ab8223@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde  <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:02:51 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:
>> Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
>> "desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
>> 
>> That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
>> It was quite interesting.
>> 
>> I read it from here:
>>
>http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
>> 
>> One can listen to it (Helps me keep on track) from here:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQHwIdST2PQ
>> 
>> And here, is a synopsis of it:
>> http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
>> 
>> "Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
>> Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
>> would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
>> of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
>> of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
>> scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
>> and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
>> early evolution.
>> The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
>> instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
>> 
>> or
>> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
>> 
>> one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
>> A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
>> (and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
>> of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
>> the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
>> be pleasantly surprised."
>
>In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and
>quite different from his usual work.
>
>"Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of
>the world than Clarke generally did, before or after.  This doesn't - as
>far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.
>
>Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer.  If
>so, it worked.  He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he
>caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his
>fiction writing time.
>
>William Hyde

Huh.  That's curious.  Wasn't the Polio vaccine available in England
by that time?  It was here.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#496593

In article <fte7pjFn495U1@mid.individual.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <265cc5c8-29cd-4d20-893e-033512ab8223@googlegroups.com>,
>William Hyde  <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >>He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he
>>caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his
>>fiction writing time.
>
>Huh.  That's curious.  Wasn't the Polio vaccine available in England
>by that time?  It was here.

The Salk vaccine, in 1955, the Sabin vaccine in 1962.

But remember, polio had long been considered a disease of
children.  They called it "infantile paralysis," and chldren who
caught it frequently made a full recovery.  When I was, let's
see, eleven, so that would have been the summer of 1953, I knew a
bout of about the same age who had had polio and recovered
completely.

But here's the gotcha.  Received medical opinion in the first
half or so of the twentieth century was "If you didn't catch a
'childhood disease' as a child, you'll never catch it."  This
concept was probably supported by herd immunity, since practically
everybody did catch the childhood diseases in childhood.

Here I can tell a tale.  My mother was a Registered Nurse who had
trained in the early 1930s.  She was fanatical about not letting
me catch any childhood diseases.  I can still remember, at age
single-digits, standing in the doorway of a friend's bedroom, not
allowed to go in lest I catch her whooping cough.

I never caught whooping cough.  I did, however, catch red measles
at eighteen (two weeks in isolation in a darkened room) and
chicken pox at nineteen (a week in isolation at Cowell Hospital
on the UCB campus) and they were a lot worse than they wouldve
been if I'd caught them, say, fifteen years before. 

The first vaccination against a "childhood disease" I got was
against German measles, just before I married, for obvious reasons.

I can easily see the NHS (or whatever Britain had in that period)
concentrating on getting the children vaccinated and assuming the
adults were safe, even in the face of the statistics.  And Clarke
lived in Sri Lanka from 1956 till his death, and I would bet a
case of cookies that polio vaccination was essentially unknown
there till goodness knows how late.

Note, I am not an MD nor an RN, nor do I play one on TV.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

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#496594

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:45:08 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> I can easily see the NHS (or whatever Britain had in that period)
> concentrating on getting the children vaccinated and assuming the
> adults were safe, even in the face of the statistics.  And Clarke
> lived in Sri Lanka from 1956 till his death, and I would bet a
> case of cookies that polio vaccination was essentially unknown
> there till goodness knows how late.
> 
> Note, I am not an MD nor an RN, nor do I play one on TV.


Would religious groups on Ceylon/Sri Lanka have opposed the
vaccinations?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion

Kevin R

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#496600

In article <dc432a3a-40ad-494d-87e1-7b560b4bf32b@googlegroups.com>,
Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:45:08 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> I can easily see the NHS (or whatever Britain had in that period)
>> concentrating on getting the children vaccinated and assuming the
>> adults were safe, even in the face of the statistics.  And Clarke
>> lived in Sri Lanka from 1956 till his death, and I would bet a
>> case of cookies that polio vaccination was essentially unknown
>> there till goodness knows how late.
>> 
>> Note, I am not an MD nor an RN, nor do I play one on TV.
>
>
>Would religious groups on Ceylon/Sri Lanka have opposed the
>vaccinations?
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion

Interesting.  I don't know about attitudes in Sri Lanka.  But
Clarke could probably have gone to the UK Embassy or somewhere
and gotten the vaccination if it had occurred to him.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

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#496605

On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 23:41:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <dc432a3a-40ad-494d-87e1-7b560b4bf32b@googlegroups.com>,
>Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 5:45:08 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> I can easily see the NHS (or whatever Britain had in that period)
>>> concentrating on getting the children vaccinated and assuming the
>>> adults were safe, even in the face of the statistics.  And Clarke
>>> lived in Sri Lanka from 1956 till his death, and I would bet a
>>> case of cookies that polio vaccination was essentially unknown
>>> there till goodness knows how late.
>>> 
>>> Note, I am not an MD nor an RN, nor do I play one on TV.
>>
>>
>>Would religious groups on Ceylon/Sri Lanka have opposed the
>>vaccinations?
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion
>
>Interesting.  I don't know about attitudes in Sri Lanka.  But
>Clarke could probably have gone to the UK Embassy or somewhere
>and gotten the vaccination if it had occurred to him.

Apparently his illness became apparent in 1961, 6 years after the Salk
vaccine, so no, he probably didn't get it before that time.

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#496607 — Re: "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke - "Death and the Senator"

On 8/13/2018 12:10 PM, William Hyde wrote:
 > On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:02:51 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:
 >> Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
 >> "desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
 >>
 >> That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
 >> It was quite interesting.
 >>
 >> I read it from here:
 >> 
http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
 >>
 >> One can listen to it (Helps me keep on track) from here:
 >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQHwIdST2PQ
 >>
 >> And here, is a synopsis of it:
 >> 
http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
 >> -----
 >> or
 >> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
 >>
 >> one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
 >> A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
 >> (and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
 >> of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
 >> the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
 >> be pleasantly surprised."
 >
 > In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and 
quite different from his usual work.
 >
 > "Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view 
of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after.  This doesn't - 
as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.
 >
 > Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer. 
If so, it worked.  He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year 
he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his 
fiction writing time.
 > William Hyde

That is an interesting observation.
I prefer his most common, fairly optimistic side.

Back in 6-20-2017 in this newsgroup I posted some of
my opinions on the short story "Hate".  Nobody responded.

I have not read his "Death and the Senator".
Thank you for mentioning it.
I will now read it at
http://krypton.mnsu.edu/~jp5985fj/courses/230/DeathandtheSenatorAS_9417320.pdf

and one can listen to it at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXQoPwK1zYk&list=PLosJVqUo1OacaeJpgTJqn93bRPBnw0_F-&index=15
(but it is over 50 minutes long,,,,.)

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#496654

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:10:37 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:02:51 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:
> > Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
> > "desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
> > 
> > That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
> > It was quite interesting.
> > 
> > I read it from here:
> > http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
> > 
> > One can listen to it (Helps me keep on track) from here:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQHwIdST2PQ
> > 
> > And here, is a synopsis of it:
> > http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
> > 
> > "Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
> > Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
> > would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
> > of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
> > of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
> > scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
> > and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
> > early evolution.
> > The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
> > instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
> > 
> > or
> > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
> > 
> > one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
> > A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
> > (and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
> > of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
> > the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
> > be pleasantly surprised."
> 
> In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and quite different from his usual work.
> 
> "Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after.  This doesn't - as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.
> 
> Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer.  If so, it worked.  He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his fiction writing time.
> 
> William Hyde

I would argue that "Breaking Strain" is at least as dark as "Death and he Senator". The title is an allusion to one of kKipling's darker verses, after all. 

"Death and he Senator" is about the tragedy that a great limit on medical treatment (in this case zero G) creates when many more poeple need the treatment than cna possibly have it. 

I don't recall "Hate" off hand.

"Before Eden" is a cautionary tale, and i believe has been used at NASA to illustrate the need for care in what we send to other worlds, much as "Superiority" has been used for reading at West Point, or so I have read. 

There are a few other rather dark stories by Clarke: "A Walk in the Dark", for example, or the one where (spoiler) the only earth artifact remaining is a Disney film (I can't recall the title at the moment). For the matter of that the original story "The Sentinal" before it was used to craft _2001_ was not exactly all light.

-DES
 

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#496660

In article <514f1970-e063-40f4-bb33-f2e16d78c1bf@googlegroups.com>,
 <desiegel60@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:10:37 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:02:51 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:
>> > Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
>> > "desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
>> > 
>> > That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
>> > It was quite interesting.
>> > 
>> > I read it from here:
>> >
>http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
>> > 
>> > One can listen to it (Helps me keep on track) from here:
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQHwIdST2PQ
>> > 
>> > And here, is a synopsis of it:
>> > http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
>> > 
>> > "Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
>> > Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
>> > would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
>> > of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
>> > of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
>> > scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
>> > and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
>> > early evolution.
>> > The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
>> > instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
>> > 
>> > or
>> > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
>> > 
>> > one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
>> > A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
>> > (and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
>> > of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
>> > the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
>> > be pleasantly surprised."
>> 
>> In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and
>quite different from his usual work.
>> 
>> "Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of
>the world than Clarke generally did, before or after.  This doesn't - as
>far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.
>> 
>> Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer. 
>If so, it worked.  He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year
>he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his
>fiction writing time.
>> 
>> William Hyde
>
>I would argue that "Breaking Strain" is at least as dark as "Death and
>he Senator". The title is an allusion to one of kKipling's darker
>verses, after all. 
>
>"Death and he Senator" is about the tragedy that a great limit on
>medical treatment (in this case zero G) creates when many more poeple
>need the treatment than cna possibly have it. 
>
>I don't recall "Hate" off hand.
>
>"Before Eden" is a cautionary tale, and i believe has been used at NASA
>to illustrate the need for care in what we send to other worlds, much as
>"Superiority" has been used for reading at West Point, or so I have
>read. 
>
>There are a few other rather dark stories by Clarke: "A Walk in the
>Dark", for example, or the one where (spoiler) the only earth artifact
>remaining is a Disney film (I can't recall the title at the moment).

"History Lesson."  _Startling Stories_, May 1949.  (I have it in a
falling-apart Conklin omnibus.)  There are actually a few other
artifacts in the cairn, but it's the Donald Duck ("with its
characteristic expression of arrogant bad temper") opus that the
Venusians find most interesting.

>For
>the matter of that the original story "The Sentinal" before it was used
>to craft _2001_ was not exactly all light.

Yes; you could compare its darker interpretation to Leinster's
_The Black Galaxy_ (also _Startling Stories), March 1949, later
reprinted as a "Galaxy Novel", 1954).

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

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#497527

On 2018-08-14, Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
> <desiegel60@gmail.com> wrote:
>>For the matter of that the original story "The Sentinal" before it was used
>>to craft _2001_ was not exactly all light.
>
> Yes; you could compare its darker interpretation to Leinster's
> _The Black Galaxy_ (also _Startling Stories), March 1949, later
> reprinted as a "Galaxy Novel", 1954).

And dare we forget _The Star_?

Dave, I know I can't
-- 
\/David	DeLaney	posting	thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that	grows the flower
It's not the clock that	slows the hour 	The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is	all it takes to	make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE	HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible	:( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

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#496720

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 4:15:01 PM UTC-4, desie...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:10:37 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:02:51 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:
> > > Over in my old thread, "OT opinion - Sorry Nerds--",
> > > "desiege" mentioned "Before Eden" a short story by Arthur Clarke
> > > 
> > > That is one I had never heard of and it was not in my books.
> > > It was quite interesting.
> > > 
> > > I read it from here:
> > > http://www.gdhsenglish.com/thompson/assets/pdfs/ENG3U1%20pdf's/Short%20Stories/BEFORE%20EDEN.pdf
> > > 
> > > One can listen to it (Helps me keep on track) from here:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQHwIdST2PQ
> > > 
> > > And here, is a synopsis of it:
> > > http://thescifidigest.blogspot.com/2012/04/before-eden-arthur-c-clarke.html
> > > 
> > > "Before Eden - Arthur C. Clarke
> > > Clarke's Before Eden starts as any generic planetary exploration
> > > would. Two men from an expedition who investigate the polar regions
> > > of Venus and find the less harsh atmosphere ready for the evolution
> > > of life. But has it already? The plot takes through a vivid
> > > scientific expedition that visualizes barren Venusian landscape
> > > and something even more curious, a moving shape that hints at
> > > early evolution.
> > > The story's success is that it doesn't tread a cliched path, but
> > > instead takes the reader by surprise in the very last paragraph."
> > > 
> > > or
> > > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22608644-before-eden
> > > 
> > > one comment is "One of the overlooked gems of Clarke's oeuvre.
> > > A very atmospheric first contact story, with a really unexpected
> > > (and cautionary) twist ending. Though the past or present existence
> > > of life on Venus is a big enigma, this is a great bit of hard SF on
> > > the topic. Read it (or listen to it) with an open mind and you'll
> > > be pleasantly surprised."
> > 
> > In 1961 Clarke published three stories which are (IMO) very good, and quite different from his usual work.
> > 
> > "Before Eden" "Death and the Senator" and "Hate" take a darker view of the world than Clarke generally did, before or after.  This doesn't - as far as I know, correlate with any negative event in Clarke' life.
> > 
> > Perhaps is was a conscious attempt to expand his range as a writer.  If so, it worked.  He might have gone on in this vein, but the next year he caught Polio, and soon after that 2001 began to take up most of his fiction writing time.
> > 
> > William Hyde
> 
> I would argue that "Breaking Strain" is at least as dark as 

You are quite correct in that Clarke wrote other dark stories.  Aside from the ones you mentioned, there is another ("The Ancient Enemy"?) in which the ice ages come again.  And another in which it's implied that humans use supernovae as a weapon of war.

Then of course there's "The Star".

But these three, all substantial stories published in the same year, made an impression on me.

I tend to think of Clarke the short story writer more as the author of "The Road to the Sea", "A meeting with Medusa", "Rescue Party" and so on.  But as you show, he's very often darker than that.  I'm surprised that I forgot that.

William Hyde

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#496685

Hi all

I did a quick Google and found the text for this story (the Internet is AWESOME that way!). The ending is almost the exact opposite of what I remembered from reading it somewhere in between '89 and '92. I.e.: the trash left behind by the disappointed humans contains the phosphorus that allows Venus's native life forms to finally achieve the critical mass they need to (one day) take over the planet.

Did Clarke write an alternative version, or did someone else do a similar story? Or is this another alt-story I hallucinated?

Regards
Frank

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#496688

On Wednesday, 15 August 2018 08:26:45 UTC+1, frank....@gmail.com  wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> I did a quick Google and found the text for this story (the Internet is AWESOME that way!). The ending is almost the exact opposite of what I remembered from reading it somewhere in between '89 and '92. I.e.: the trash left behind by the disappointed humans contains the phosphorus that allows Venus's native life forms to finally achieve the critical mass they need to (one day) take over the planet.
> 
> Did Clarke write an alternative version, or did someone else do a similar story? Or is this another alt-story I hallucinated?

I haven't read your version!  But with that said:
do you definitely (think you) remember phosphorus, 
specifically?  Just wondering.

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#496689

Greets to all and Robert in particular

I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
as some component (compound) of polystyrene.

The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is (apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space flight to the planet will be abandoned.

I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
around.

For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained Surface Tension (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which
at the time impressed me greatly.

That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated /  remembered
a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
parallel universe.  ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?

Regards
Frank

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#496690

On Wednesday, 15 August 2018 09:54:03 UTC+1, frank....@gmail.com  wrote:
> Greets to all and Robert in particular
> 
> I (almost definitely) remember phosphorus being the mentioned, as well
> as some component (compound) of polystyrene.
> 
> The humans depart disappointed because the South Pole of Venus was the
> last place on the planet that could theoretically support life, and
> all they found was interesting chemistry but no 'life'. I also (I think) remember that without the promise of life to investigate there is (apparently) no reason for further exploring Venus and manned space flight to the planet will be abandoned.
> 
> I remember thinking at the time that it was awfully irresponsible for
> biologists of all people to go around leaving their trash lying
> around.
> 
> For what its worth the version of the story I remember was in the same
> collection as a story about stranded astronauts finally managing to
> seed a planet with life when the last member of the crew lies down to die in his pre-prepared grave . I think the same book also contained Surface Tension (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Tension_(short_story), which
> at the time impressed me greatly.
> 
> That said this won't be the first time I've hallucinated /  remembered
> a story that no one else has read or can remember. Which makes me
> think I might have wandered into this reality from a nearby almost
> parallel universe.  ;-) What other conclusions could I reach?
> 
> Regards
> Frank

...What's the story solution in your universe to
"The Cold Equations"?

Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

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#496692

Hi all

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 11:11:28 AM UTC+2, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> 
> ...What's the story solution in your universe to
> "The Cold Equations"?
> 
> Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
> had trouble producihng the story ending that they wanted.

It shames me to admit that I've never actually read "The Cold Equations". 

I know the basic premise. I'm not sure what 'my universe' would have done with it. But I am a big fan of Kerbal Space Program (http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/) and encountering Cold Equations happens occassionally to Kerbals. Some times its unavoidably fatal (periapsis below the height of a planet's higher points) but at other times you can get your Kerbals to GOAP (Get Out and Push): literally you take your Kerbal out on an EVA and use the five units of monopropellant in his space suit's maneuvering thrusters to change the DeltaV of the vehicle he was in. When the suit's tanks are empty you get your Kerbal back on board and send him for another EVA. And his thrusters are magically back to full tanks. Over the course of numerous EVA any amount of DeltaV can be applied. 

So maybe my universe would have had a MMU with thrusters that recharged off the solar panels and solar wind. Don't know, I'd have to find my way back there to find out. 

Anyway, take care, and have fun.

Regards
Frank

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#496702

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 02:11:25 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, 15 August 2018 09:54:03 UTC+1, frank....@gmail.com  wrote:
>> Greets to all and Robert in particular
>
>...What's the story solution in your universe to
>"The Cold Equations"?
>
>Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
>had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.

Which is further complicated by the fact that Godwin swiped the idea
from a comic book story by Al Feldstein, "A Weighty Decision."  He
felt that he wasn't plagiarizing because he changed the ending.

John Campbell, who didn't read comic books but saw what the proper
ending had to be, changed it back, and Godwin couldn't very well
explain at that point where he'd gotten the premise.




-- 
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned:  A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

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#496723

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 10:11:20 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 02:11:25 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> 
> >On Wednesday, 15 August 2018 09:54:03 UTC+1, frank....@gmail.com  wrote:
> >> Greets to all and Robert in particular
> >
> >...What's the story solution in your universe to
> >"The Cold Equations"?
> >
> >Apparently the writer and editor in this universe
> >had trouble producing the story ending that they wanted.
> 
> Which is further complicated by the fact that Godwin swiped the idea
> from a comic book story by Al Feldstein, "A Weighty Decision."  He
> felt that he wasn't plagiarizing because he changed the ending.
> 
> John Campbell, who didn't read comic books but saw what the proper
> ending had to be, changed it back, and Godwin couldn't very well
> explain at that point where he'd gotten the premise.


EC Comics, hoist with own petard?  They cribbed from so many,
with Ray Bradbury catching them at it, and asking for his royalty
checks!  EC coughed up, and they struck a deal for official
adaptations.

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-146/

Kevin R

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