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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #452808 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Madawc Williams <madawcnow@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-10-03 00:56 -0700 |
| Last post | 2016-10-04 07:40 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 88 — 21 participants |
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Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Madawc Williams <madawcnow@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 00:56 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-03 13:17 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 07:21 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-03 11:37 -0600
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-03 11:40 -0600
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 11:37 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-03 13:13 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-03 20:50 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 14:52 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 17:18 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-04 00:54 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-04 05:09 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-04 12:45 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-10-04 12:32 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 00:00 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-04 21:17 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 02:09 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-04 22:55 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-04 20:21 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-04 23:39 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-05 05:23 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-05 05:29 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-05 12:44 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-05 11:06 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-05 14:52 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-12 11:42 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 12:44 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-05 08:30 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 15:48 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-05 11:12 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-10-05 10:14 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-05 15:18 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-05 15:30 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-10-06 08:46 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-06 09:37 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-06 16:31 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-10-08 14:15 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 08:36 +0200
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 12:50 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-10-05 21:50 -0500
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-06 03:27 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-04 00:51 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 16:57 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-10-04 12:40 -0500
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-10-04 21:27 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-05 03:04 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 01:19 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 15:04 +0300
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 12:55 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 22:58 +0300
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-05 13:08 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2016-10-05 10:13 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-05 14:40 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 18:59 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-05 15:30 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 23:07 +0300
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 16:12 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 02:33 +0300
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 16:45 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-06 02:03 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 06:36 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-06 19:36 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-10-09 22:51 +0100
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 16:43 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-10-05 21:44 -0500
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-05 23:23 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-10-07 14:33 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-10-06 08:03 -0500
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 12:53 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-10-05 21:49 -0500
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-05 23:25 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2016-10-06 18:08 +1100
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-07 05:41 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 13:01 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-10-07 20:03 -0500
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-10-08 03:28 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-07 18:33 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2016-10-28 00:10 +1100
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-10-06 21:13 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-07 04:55 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-10-07 14:32 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-10-09 23:06 +0100
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-10-09 21:34 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-10-10 09:15 +0100
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-10-05 10:21 -0400
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? peterwezeman@hotmail.com - 2016-10-03 20:51 -0700
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-10-04 04:19 +0000
Re: Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-04 07:40 -0700
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| From | Madawc Williams <madawcnow@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 00:56 -0700 |
| Subject | Was Naomi Mitchison the first person in science fiction to say that interfering in non-human cultures would be wrong even if there was good cause? |
| Message-ID | <a9cd7bad-67d1-4520-bbd7-3207757ab238@googlegroups.com> |
This is the view of future Earth-humans in her 1962 SF novel "Memoirs of a Spacewoman". We find it formalised later in Star Trek as the Prime Directive, but that was not mentioned before 1967, according to the Wiki.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 13:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oEH3LK.ErG@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452808 |
In article <a9cd7bad-67d1-4520-bbd7-3207757ab238@googlegroups.com>, Madawc Williams <madawcnow@gmail.com> wrote: >This is the view of future Earth-humans in her 1962 SF novel "Memoirs of >a Spacewoman". We find it formalised later in Star Trek as the Prime >Directive, but that was not mentioned before 1967, according to the >Wiki. It is not, of course, a guarantee that everything in the Wiki is true. In fact, some entries therein are continually and hotly disputed. I will see if I can recall any occurrences of that idea in all the SF I read in the fifties. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 07:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ebcbcb99-21a2-434e-8049-dacaa249cb48@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #452820 |
On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 9:30:02 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <a9cd7bad-67d1-4520-bbd7-3207757ab238@googlegroups.com>, > Madawc Williams <madawcnow@gmail.com> wrote: > >This is the view of future Earth-humans in her 1962 SF novel "Memoirs of > >a Spacewoman". We find it formalised later in Star Trek as the Prime > >Directive, but that was not mentioned before 1967, according to the > >Wiki. > > It is not, of course, a guarantee that everything in the Wiki is > true. In fact, some entries therein are continually and hotly > disputed. > > I will see if I can recall any occurrences of that idea in all > the SF I read in the fifties. The trope is a direct carryover from the misgivings many people felt over European colonialism, starting with the voyages of discovery in the 15th century and later. As such, its really just 'Noble Savages IN SPACE!', and to me, at least, not very interesting. The first reversal of it would be something to look for: what was the first 'Tentacles off Earth: it is kept as an anthropological preserve of primitives' story? pt
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| From | David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 11:37 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <nsu50q$v5j$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #452829 |
On 10/3/2016 8:21 AM, Peter Trei wrote: > On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 9:30:02 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <a9cd7bad-67d1-4520-bbd7-3207757ab238@googlegroups.com>, >> Madawc Williams <madawcnow@gmail.com> wrote: >>> This is the view of future Earth-humans in her 1962 SF novel "Memoirs of >>> a Spacewoman". We find it formalised later in Star Trek as the Prime >>> Directive, but that was not mentioned before 1967, according to the >>> Wiki. >> >> It is not, of course, a guarantee that everything in the Wiki is >> true. In fact, some entries therein are continually and hotly >> disputed. >> >> I will see if I can recall any occurrences of that idea in all >> the SF I read in the fifties. > > The trope is a direct carryover from the misgivings many people > felt over European colonialism, starting with the voyages of discovery > in the 15th century and later. > > As such, its really just 'Noble Savages IN SPACE!', and to me, at least, > not very interesting. > > The first reversal of it would be something to look for: what was the first > 'Tentacles off Earth: it is kept as an anthropological preserve of > primitives' story? > > pt > The earliest one I know is Isaac Asimov in 1940. In Homo Sol the alien Federation does not make contact with sapients until they demonstrate the capability of interstellar travel, at which point they assume the new arrivals will be socially ready to join the Federation and will do so without complaint. In short, exactly like Star Trek TNG.
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| From | David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 11:40 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <nsu55e$v5j$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #452854 |
On 10/3/2016 11:37 AM, David Johnston wrote: > On 10/3/2016 8:21 AM, Peter Trei wrote: >> On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 9:30:02 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>> In article <a9cd7bad-67d1-4520-bbd7-3207757ab238@googlegroups.com>, >>> Madawc Williams <madawcnow@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> This is the view of future Earth-humans in her 1962 SF novel >>>> "Memoirs of >>>> a Spacewoman". We find it formalised later in Star Trek as the Prime >>>> Directive, but that was not mentioned before 1967, according to the >>>> Wiki. >>> >>> It is not, of course, a guarantee that everything in the Wiki is >>> true. In fact, some entries therein are continually and hotly >>> disputed. >>> >>> I will see if I can recall any occurrences of that idea in all >>> the SF I read in the fifties. >> >> The trope is a direct carryover from the misgivings many people >> felt over European colonialism, starting with the voyages of discovery >> in the 15th century and later. >> >> As such, its really just 'Noble Savages IN SPACE!', and to me, at least, >> not very interesting. >> >> The first reversal of it would be something to look for: what was the >> first >> 'Tentacles off Earth: it is kept as an anthropological preserve of >> primitives' story? >> >> pt >> > > The earliest one I know is Isaac Asimov in 1940. In Homo Sol the alien > Federation does not make contact with sapients until they demonstrate > the capability of interstellar travel, at which point they assume the > new arrivals will be socially ready to join the Federation and will do > so without complaint. In short, exactly like Star Trek TNG. Although admittedly that's less for the benefit of the "primitives" and more because it would be a gigantic pain in the ass for a warlike species to gain interstellar capability. Which is the problem in Homo Sol.
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| From | "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 11:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <21b8d098-6345-4d5f-9a0f-d6692cdcbb86@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #452808 |
On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 12:57:00 AM UTC-7, Madawc Williams wrote: > This is the view of future Earth-humans in her 1962 SF novel "Memoirs of a > Spacewoman". We find it formalised later in Star Trek as the Prime Directive, > but that was not mentioned before 1967, according to the Wiki. I saw that question on Quora and started to respond to it but Firefox started grabbing yuuuuge chunks of memory and "not responding". Anybody else having that problem? Is it an add-on Not Playing Nice, or what? Mark L. Fergerson
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 13:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6ce86b31-74c4-4d5d-8252-7255e3ccd602@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #452859 |
On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 2:37:18 PM UTC-4, nu...@bid.nes wrote: > On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 12:57:00 AM UTC-7, Madawc Williams wrote: > > This is the view of future Earth-humans in her 1962 SF novel "Memoirs of a > > Spacewoman". We find it formalised later in Star Trek as the Prime Directive, > > but that was not mentioned before 1967, according to the Wiki. > > I saw that question on Quora and started to respond to it but Firefox started grabbing yuuuuge chunks of memory and "not responding". > > Anybody else having that problem? Is it an add-on Not Playing Nice, or what? Much as I love Firefox, it is a memory hog, especially if you are running various add-ons. The longer I have it up and running, the more memory it demands. At some point, I just close it and restart the program. Computerish aside: If anyone else is using Windows 10, do you find it a triumph of the phone and tablet over the desktop and laptop, that the OS refers to all programs you launch as "apps?" I guess they always were applications, but it still looks weird on a non-portable or luggable device. Kevin R
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 20:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oEHoK7.1o1p@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452881 |
In article <6ce86b31-74c4-4d5d-8252-7255e3ccd602@googlegroups.com>, Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote: > >Computerish aside: If anyone else is using Windows 10, do you find >it a triumph of the phone and tablet over the desktop and laptop, >that the OS refers to all programs you launch as "apps?" (1) I do not use Win 10. (2) I think you're absolutely right. Which is why (3) I do not use Win 10. :) -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 14:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c8cde383-5087-4f31-b9af-c6530d8ba119@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #452892 |
On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <6ce86b31-74c4-4d5d-8252-7255e3ccd602@googlegroups.com>, > Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote: > > > >Computerish aside: If anyone else is using Windows 10, do you find > >it a triumph of the phone and tablet over the desktop and laptop, > >that the OS refers to all programs you launch as "apps?" > > (1) I do not use Win 10. (2) I think you're absolutely right. > Which is why (3) I do not use Win 10. :) MS is trying to get people used to the 'app store' model, in which you will only be able to buy and install SW through their own website. I expect you'll see it become harder and harder to install applications obtained outside the MS walled garden. pt
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| From | "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 17:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87ccf23c-54ee-4e19-ba93-128c43e1a9c0@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #452902 |
On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 2:53:01 PM UTC-7, Peter Trei wrote: > On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > > In article <6ce86b31-74c4-4d5d-8252-7255e3ccd602@googlegroups.com>, > > Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote: > > > > > >Computerish aside: If anyone else is using Windows 10, do you find > > >it a triumph of the phone and tablet over the desktop and laptop, > > >that the OS refers to all programs you launch as "apps?" > > > > (1) I do not use Win 10. (2) I think you're absolutely right. > > Which is why (3) I do not use Win 10. :) That's not MS' fault. Apple started calling them apps and that's what consumers have come to expect. I use Windows because that's what I learned on, and I find Apple's OSes require a different kind of intuition to use easily. Chrome is IMO still crap. Linux, no thanks. > MS is trying to get people used to the 'app store' model, in which you will > only be able to buy and install SW through their own website. Ostensibly that's so MS can verify the safety of an app security-wise. And remember, they didn't invent that model. > I expect you'll see it become harder and harder to install applications > obtained outside the MS walled garden. Apple and Android ran into monopoly issues doing that and MS has has old scars from being burned that way long before their app store was called an app store. That's why I can use MS Win10 but don't have to use MS Office, MS Edge, etc. They'd be stupid to try to go back to a walled garden and AFAICT have zero interest in doing so. Frex, they've almost dropped their media player "app" completely. You want to play music or videos on a MS computer offline, you pretty much need a 3rd party app. The *free* competition is so much better anyway (VLC FTW!), and personally I'd rather have MS concentrate on trimming the OS of bloat than split their efforts to trying to compete with single-goal app authors too. Yeah, I know, but I can hope. Hell, W10 still boots faster than XP ever could. Mark L. Fergerson
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-04 00:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oEHzuK.9D2@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452920 |
In article <87ccf23c-54ee-4e19-ba93-128c43e1a9c0@googlegroups.com>, nuny@bid.nes <Alien8752@gmail.com> wrote: > > Yeah, I know, but I can hope. Hell, W10 still boots faster than XP ever could. Yeah, but, I turn my machine on when I wake up, take my morning's pills, go to the bathroom, and by the time I've returned it's up. (Win 7.) That fast is plenty fast enough. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-04 05:09 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <r6oilh00a2jn$.b3x0w3bk4ve.dlg@40tude.net> |
| In reply to | #452920 |
On Mon, 3 Oct 2016 17:18:38 -0700 (PDT), "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> wrote in<news:87ccf23c-54ee-4e19-ba93-128c43e1a9c0@googlegroups.com> in rec.arts.sf.written: [...] > I use Windows because that's what I learned on, and I > find Apple's OSes require a different kind of intuition > to use easily. Likewise. (Well, technically I learned on DOS, if you don’t count my mainframe experience back in the late 1960s. And that was also on DOS: DOS 360.) But I had no interest in moving to Windows 10; I’m still running 7. > Chrome is IMO still crap. Linux, no thanks. Before I retured I used Ubuntu on the laptop that I took to school; it was okay, except that I missed my email client (The Bat!). I could switch to some flavor of Linux without too much pain. In particular, I’ve been using LibreOffice (and before that OpenOffice.org) for many years. Come to think of it, I’ve never had MS Office at home: I went from WordPerfect 5.1 to OpenOffice.org. [...] Brian -- It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss, haggisss.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-04 12:45 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oEIwrL.BDK@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452944 |
In article <r6oilh00a2jn$.b3x0w3bk4ve.dlg@40tude.net>, Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote: >On Mon, 3 Oct 2016 17:18:38 -0700 (PDT), "nuny@bid.nes" ><Alien8752@gmail.com> wrote >in<news:87ccf23c-54ee-4e19-ba93-128c43e1a9c0@googlegroups.com> >in rec.arts.sf.written: > >[...] > >> I use Windows because that's what I learned on, and I >> find Apple's OSes require a different kind of intuition >> to use easily. > >Likewise. (Well, technically I learned on DOS, if you >don’t count my mainframe experience back in the late 1960s. >And that was also on DOS: DOS 360.) But I had no interest >in moving to Windows 10; I’m still running 7. > >> Chrome is IMO still crap. Linux, no thanks. > >Before I retured I used Ubuntu on the laptop that I took to >school; it was okay, except that I missed my email client >(The Bat!). I could switch to some flavor of Linux without >too much pain. In particular, I’ve been using LibreOffice >(and before that OpenOffice.org) for many years. Come to >think of it, I’ve never had MS Office at home: I went from >WordPerfect 5.1 to OpenOffice.org. Whereas I learned BSD UNIX -- well, I learned ex, vi, n/troff, eqn, tbl, and eventually how to write a few *very simple* shell scripts. Could never have done it if I hadn't been married to a programmer who didn't know anything about UNIX either, but knew how to read technical manuals. Then I got a different job and had to learn to use a Mac, and I've already discussed how I wanted to have so many hotkeys that I never had to use the mouse, and didn't get my wish. Now I'm using OpenOffice, which is sort of imitation MS Word. For anything really computerish, I depend on Hal. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-04 12:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d681535c-7379-4ca3-9e34-8c7904a8550b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #452950 |
On Tuesday, 4 October 2016 14:00:03 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > Then I got a different job and had to learn to use a Mac, and > I've already discussed how I wanted to have so many hotkeys that > I never had to use the mouse, and didn't get my wish. Did I misread this as "so many hotkeys that I never had to leave the house" last time? There are a lot of key combinations there...
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-05 00:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oEJs1n.3IH@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452972 |
In article <d681535c-7379-4ca3-9e34-8c7904a8550b@googlegroups.com>, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote: >On Tuesday, 4 October 2016 14:00:03 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> Then I got a different job and had to learn to use a Mac, and >> I've already discussed how I wanted to have so many hotkeys that >> I never had to use the mouse, and didn't get my wish. > >Did I misread this as "so many hotkeys that I never >had to leave the house" last time? Dunno, I wasn't reading over your shoulder. > >There are a lot of key combinations there... Yes, there are, but there were NOT enough to enable me never to use the mouse. I called Apple (even in those days when they still had long distance, Cupertino was a local call) and got a help-desker who started explaining to me about the hotkeys they had, and I said, "Yes, but what I want is to find a way NEVER to have to use the mouse at all." And he said, in honest bewilderment, "But why would anyone never want to use the mouse??" Different worlds. (Because I want to keep my fingers on the keyboard, silly Applehead.) -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-04 21:17 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <cfgynrn3ofn5$.1oadcuq92x13z$.dlg@40tude.net> |
| In reply to | #453001 |
On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 00:00:59 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oEJs1n.3IH@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written: > In article <d681535c-7379-4ca3-9e34-8c7904a8550b@googlegroups.com>, > Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote: [...] >> There are a lot of key combinations there... > Yes, there are, but there were NOT enough to enable me > never to use the mouse. I called Apple (even in those > days when they still had long distance, Cupertino was a > local call) and got a help-desker who started explaining > to me about the hotkeys they had, and I said, "Yes, but > what I want is to find a way NEVER to have to use the > mouse at all." > And he said, in honest bewilderment, "But why would > anyone never want to use the mouse??" > Different worlds. > (Because I want to keep my fingers on the keyboard, silly > Applehead.) I’ve a strong preference in that direction myself. That’s one reason that I like my email client: even though it has a nice GUI, one that I like, I can still do everything from the keyboard. It also has quite a nice little text editor, so I use it for keeping notes to myself, stored in its Outbox. I’ve yet to find a Linux client that is as nice. Brian -- It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss, haggisss.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-05 02:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oEJy0L.Fvn@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #453007 |
In article <cfgynrn3ofn5$.1oadcuq92x13z$.dlg@40tude.net>, Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote: >On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 00:00:59 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt ><djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oEJs1n.3IH@kithrup.com> >in rec.arts.sf.written: > >> In article <d681535c-7379-4ca3-9e34-8c7904a8550b@googlegroups.com>, >> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote: > >[...] > >>> There are a lot of key combinations there... > >> Yes, there are, but there were NOT enough to enable me >> never to use the mouse. I called Apple (even in those >> days when they still had long distance, Cupertino was a >> local call) and got a help-desker who started explaining >> to me about the hotkeys they had, and I said, "Yes, but >> what I want is to find a way NEVER to have to use the >> mouse at all." > >> And he said, in honest bewilderment, "But why would >> anyone never want to use the mouse??" > >> Different worlds. > >> (Because I want to keep my fingers on the keyboard, silly >> Applehead.) > >I’ve a strong preference in that direction myself. That’s >one reason that I like my email client: even though it has >a nice GUI, one that I like, I can still do everything from >the keyboard. It also has quite a nice little text editor, >so I use it for keeping notes to myself, stored in its >Outbox. I’ve yet to find a Linux client that is as nice. > Well ... I learned to type on a typewriter, in (thinks) 1956 or -7. A manual typewriter. By some fortunate mistake, I had not gottetn put in the one-semester "Personal Typing for the College-Bound; I got put into the genuine secretarial typing class. I have kept my fingers resting on the home keys (except when reaching out to strike some other key) ever since. I loathe anything that makes me take one hand from the keyboard. My son observed me once, inputting some data that involved a certain percentage of numeric characters, and I was using the top row of the keyboard, because of course. And he said, "Why on earth don't you use the numeric keypad?" And I said, "Because I learned to type on a typewriter. Numeric keypads were separate machines, used by accountants. My habits are set." -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-04 22:55 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <1ao8xqx499v6r$.1kw329pv9qw0v$.dlg@40tude.net> |
| In reply to | #453010 |
On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 02:09:57 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oEJy0L.Fvn@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written: [...] > My son observed me once, inputting some data that > involved a certain percentage of numeric characters, and > I was using the top row of the keyboard, because of > course. And he said, "Why on earth don't you use the > numeric keypad?" And I said, "Because I learned to type > on a typewriter. Numeric keypads were separate > machines, used by accountants. My habits are set." My habits are also mostly those of an old-fashioned typist. I automatically reach for the top row when numbers crop in running text. However, if I’m doing a bunch of calculations on the calculator program that I prefer, it’s usually more convenient to use the numeric keypad. The same is true if I’m entering a bunch of numbers into an array when writing an answer to a question at Math StackExchange. By the way, if anyone running Windows wants a very nice freeware RPN calculator, I recommend Excalibur: <http://www.freeware-guide.com/OldGoodFreeware/Excalibur.html> Brian -- It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss, haggisss.
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-04 20:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c23a810c-d822-4dd3-bc75-8eee0da6d7ad@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #453014 |
On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 10:55:33 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote: > On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 02:09:57 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt > <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oEJy0L.Fvn@kithrup.com> > in rec.arts.sf.written: > > [...] > > > My son observed me once, inputting some data that > > involved a certain percentage of numeric characters, and > > I was using the top row of the keyboard, because of > > course. And he said, "Why on earth don't you use the > > numeric keypad?" And I said, "Because I learned to type > > on a typewriter. Numeric keypads were separate > > machines, used by accountants. My habits are set." > > My habits are also mostly those of an old-fashioned typist. > I automatically reach for the top row when numbers crop in > running text. However, if I’m doing a bunch of > calculations on the calculator program that I prefer, it’s > usually more convenient to use the numeric keypad. The > same is true if I’m entering a bunch of numbers into an > array when writing an answer to a question at Math > StackExchange. > > By the way, if anyone running Windows wants a very nice > freeware RPN calculator, I recommend Excalibur: > > <http://www.freeware-guide.com/OldGoodFreeware/Excalibur.html> I didn't develop no-look number inputting with my right hand on the number keys on a calculator, but from cashiering on late 70s-1980s era electronic cash registers, and terminals with PC compatible keyboards in the 1980s. I had the high school personal typing course, taught on ancient manuals. When I first started typing on an electric, it was like giving a bicyclist a motorcycle - instant wreck! Kevin R
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| From | "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-04 23:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ue7mysg209ix$.dkmn10z27e84$.dlg@40tude.net> |
| In reply to | #453016 |
On Tue, 4 Oct 2016 20:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in<news:c23a810c-d822-4dd3-bc75-8eee0da6d7ad@googlegroups.com> in rec.arts.sf.written: > On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 10:55:33 PM UTC-4, Brian > M. Scott wrote: >> On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 02:09:57 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt >> <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:oEJy0L.Fvn@kithrup.com> >> in rec.arts.sf.written: >> [...] >>> My son observed me once, inputting some data that >>> involved a certain percentage of numeric characters, and >>> I was using the top row of the keyboard, because of >>> course. And he said, "Why on earth don't you use the >>> numeric keypad?" And I said, "Because I learned to type >>> on a typewriter. Numeric keypads were separate >>> machines, used by accountants. My habits are set." >> My habits are also mostly those of an old-fashioned typist. >> I automatically reach for the top row when numbers crop in >> running text. However, if I’m doing a bunch of >> calculations on the calculator program that I prefer, it’s >> usually more convenient to use the numeric keypad. The >> same is true if I’m entering a bunch of numbers into an >> array when writing an answer to a question at Math >> StackExchange. [...] > I didn't develop no-look number inputting with my right > hand on the number keys on a calculator, but from > cashiering on late 70s-1980s era electronic cash > registers, and terminals with PC compatible keyboards in > the 1980s. > I had the high school personal typing course, taught on > ancient manuals. When I first started typing on an > electric, it was like giving a bicyclist a motorcycle - > instant wreck! I didn’t have quite so abrupt a transition. I was self-taught: I learned by reading a book and watching my mother type. She had at one point typed professionally, and although her handwriting was excellent, she still routinely typed virtually all of her correspondence on an office-quality (and weight!) manual typewriter. When I went off to college I took her old portable Royal, a nice manual typewriter with a much lighter touch. I was comfortable using it, but I didn’t have to do a lot of typing, so I never got faster than 30-40 wpm on a good day. Then I was drafted out of grad school and ended up as what amounted to a secretary/receptionist of the number four man on post. This *did* involve a lot of typing, and I was given an IBM Selectric Composer, an office-quality electric typewriter with proportional spacing. Between doing much more typing and very much liking the touch, I boosted my reliable speed significantly. After that I didn’t do much typing until PCs became ubiquitous, but I’ve more than made up for lost time. I’m not sure how many millions of words I’ve typed on computers, but it’s definitely into the two-digit range, and I’m faster than I ever was. Brian -- It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss, haggisss.
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