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(tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

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  (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2026-09-06 12:27 +0000
    Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> - 2026-09-08 07:21 +0000
      Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 06:38 -0400
        Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2026-09-08 11:42 +0000
          Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2026-09-08 11:46 +0000
            Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-09 02:31 +0000
    Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-09-08 08:27 -0700
      Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> - 2026-09-15 07:46 +0000
        Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Don <g@crcomp.net> - 2026-09-15 12:02 +0000
          Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-09-15 08:01 -0700
            Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Don <g@crcomp.net> - 2026-09-16 11:16 +0000
          Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2026-09-15 15:16 -0400
            Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Don <g@crcomp.net> - 2026-09-17 18:23 +0000
              Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2026-09-17 15:56 -0400
                Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Don <g@crcomp.net> - 2026-09-18 02:00 +0000
                  Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2026-09-18 16:20 -0400
                  Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Don <g@crcomp.net> - 2026-09-19 00:59 +0000
        Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-09-15 07:40 -0700
          Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-09-15 08:58 -0700
            Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> - 2026-09-16 07:42 +0000
              Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-09-16 09:11 -0700
                Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-09-16 10:33 -0700
                  Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-09-17 08:46 -0700
                Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> - 2026-09-17 07:53 +0000
                  Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-09-17 08:52 -0700
                    Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> - 2026-09-18 08:00 +0000
                  Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2026-09-17 13:45 -0400
                    Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-17 19:06 +0000
                      Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-09-18 08:52 -0700
                        Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-09-18 13:02 -0400
                    Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-09-18 08:46 -0700
                  Re: (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2026-09-17 20:07 +0000

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#660298 — (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely? 

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
-- 
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

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#660364

On Sun, 6 Sep 2026 12:27:14 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
> 
> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
> 
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

What, nobody else has checked in to say jamesdavisnicoll.com 
is down? This is the second day.

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#660365

On 9/8/26 3:21 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Sep 2026 12:27:14 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
> 
>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>>
>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
> 
> What, nobody else has checked in to say jamesdavisnicoll.com
> is down? This is the second day.

On the very small chance that it helps, one of my browsers says
" The server at jamesdavisnicoll.com sent back an error: 522 No Reason 
Phrase "

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#660366

In article <117oojp$2plj$1@dont-email.me>,
Tony Nance  <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 9/8/26 3:21 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Sep 2026 12:27:14 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
>> 
>>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>>>
>>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
>> 
>> What, nobody else has checked in to say jamesdavisnicoll.com
>> is down? This is the second day.
>
>On the very small chance that it helps, one of my browsers says
>" The server at jamesdavisnicoll.com sent back an error: 522 No Reason 
>Phrase "

This is part of an ongoing issue that is being dealt with...


-- 
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

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#660367

In article <117osbe$hvg$1@reader1.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <117oojp$2plj$1@dont-email.me>,
>Tony Nance  <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 9/8/26 3:21 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
>>> On Sun, 6 Sep 2026 12:27:14 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>>>>
>>>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
>>> 
>>> What, nobody else has checked in to say jamesdavisnicoll.com
>>> is down? This is the second day.
>>
>>On the very small chance that it helps, one of my browsers says
>>" The server at jamesdavisnicoll.com sent back an error: 522 No Reason 
>>Phrase "
>
>This is part of an ongoing issue that is being dealt with...
>
>
>-- 
>My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
>My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
>My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
>My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

And right now, it is up. 
-- 
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

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#660383

On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 11:46:09 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

> And right now, it is up.

Something to listen to while waiting/pondering/musing ...
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPVBRgxSvLg>.

“Up ... and down ...”

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#660370

On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
> 
> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
> 
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

	Exactly!

	bliss

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#660449

On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

> On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>> 
>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>> 
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
> 
> 	Exactly!
> 
> 	bliss

This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
wars these days.

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#660451

Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:
>
>> On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>>>
>>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
>>
>>       Exactly!
>>
>>       bliss
>
> This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
> gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
> wars these days.

Androgyny likely dates back to before Sodom and Gomorrah.

OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
for gender fluidity:

    He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
    himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
    make him dejected by often failings, and the second will
    make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.

<https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56463/56463-h/56463-h.htm#Page_223>

A clinical treatment of androgyny is found in the Androgyny chapter of
SEXUAL ANOMALIES AND PERVERSIONS: PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT
AND TREATMENT by Magnus Hirsfeld (1937, posthumous).

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's  )\._.,--....,'``.                     veritas    _|_
telltale tall tail /,   _.. \   _\  (`._ ,.               liberabit   |
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'              vos         |

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#660455

On 9/15/26 05:02, Don wrote:
> Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>>>>
>>>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
>>>
>>>        Exactly!
>>>
>>>        bliss
>>
>> This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
>> gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
>> wars these days.
> 
> Androgyny likely dates back to before Sodom and Gomorrah.
> 
> OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
> for gender fluidity:
> 
>      He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
>      himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
>      make him dejected by often failings, and the second will
>      make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.
> 
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56463/56463-h/56463-h.htm#Page_223>
> 
> A clinical treatment of androgyny is found in the Androgyny chapter of
> SEXUAL ANOMALIES AND PERVERSIONS: PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT
> AND TREATMENT by Magnus Hirsfeld (1937, posthumous).
> 
> Danke,
> 
> --
> Don.......My cat's  )\._.,--....,'``.                     veritas    _|_
> telltale tall tail /,   _.. \   _\  (`._ ,.               liberabit   |
> tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'              vos         |
> 

	A more recent treatment of the matter is in the "Transsexual 
Phenomenon" by Harry Benjamin who studied under Hirscfeld and
  a history of the whole early episode and biography of Magnus Hirscfeld
in"THE INTERMEDIARIES" A Weimar Story by Brandy Schillace
W. W. Norton. 352 pages, $31.99

MAGNUS HIRSCHFELD (1868–1935) has benefited from a surge of interest in 
the past two decades and is frequently mentioned in these pages. While 
German historians have extensively studied his numerous publications, 
these have only become available in accurate English translations in 
this century thanks to the dedicated scholarship of Michael Lombardi-Nash.
	Hirschfeld was a gay sexologist who took advantage of work
that had started on sex differences in chickens in the 17th Century
leading to the discovery of the male and female hormones. He was
interested in removing the Homosexual population of Germany from
the criminal law.  Ultimately due to the cultural misogyny of some
groups of male homosexuals and the rise of the Hitlerian Regime
his work and his organization was largely destroyed early in
the time that the NAZI Party took power.
	Hitler's hatred of sexual variants is echoed in Trump's
Executive orders and Hegseth's directives about transgender,
gay and women service members along with his obvious disdain
for people who are not white.
	
	bliss

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#660471

BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>        A more recent treatment of the matter is in the "Transsexual
> Phenomenon" by Harry Benjamin who studied under Hirscfeld and
>  a history of the whole early episode and biography of Magnus Hirscfeld
> in"THE INTERMEDIARIES" A Weimar Story by Brandy Schillace
> W. W. Norton. 352 pages, $31.99
>
> MAGNUS HIRSCHFELD (1868–1935) has benefited from a surge of interest in
> the past two decades and is frequently mentioned in these pages. While
> German historians have extensively studied his numerous publications,
> these have only become available in accurate English translations in
> this century thanks to the dedicated scholarship of Michael Lombardi-Nash.
>        Hirschfeld was a gay sexologist who took advantage of work
> that had started on sex differences in chickens in the 17th Century
> leading to the discovery of the male and female hormones. He was
> interested in removing the Homosexual population of Germany from
> the criminal law.  Ultimately due to the cultural misogyny of some
> groups of male homosexuals and the rise of the Hitlerian Regime
> his work and his organization was largely destroyed early in
> the time that the NAZI Party took power.
>        Hitler's hatred of sexual variants is echoed in Trump's
> Executive orders and Hegseth's directives about transgender,
> gay and women service members along with his obvious disdain
> for people who are not white.


Identity politics is a psyop:


        NEWS: MAGA activists Scott Presler, Brilyn
        Hollyhand, and Benny Johnson will all be in
        Dallas this week for the Trump Midterm
        Convention, where they aim to make the U.S.
        Senate race in Texas a referendum on
        masculinity.

    The left makes fun of the right for being secretly gay, 
    while the secretly gay right makes fun of the left for 
    being too gay.

    Who is pushing this garbage culture war?!

    <https://x.com/5149jamesli/status/2097751476399739379>
    
    ...
    
    Republicans are secretly gay and openly zionists, 
    Democrats are openly gay and secretly zionists.

    <https://x.com/Josiahbuilds/status/2097788787002638714>

    
Q. "Who is pushing this garbage culture war?!"
A. The Epstein Coalition

The Epstein Coalition includes Sultan Ahmed bin Sulayem. The Coalition
displays a "Muslims for me, but not for thee" attitide towards an
emergent Catholic-Muslim alliance:


    Hasan Piker Praises Candace Owens for Undermining Charlie 
    Kirk Assassination Narrative

    Last updated Aug 17, 2026

    Charlie Kirk was fatally shot in the neck on September 10,
    2025, while speaking at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah.
    Tyler Robinson, 23, faces aggravated murder charges as a 
    radicalized leftist who fired from a nearby rooftop and later 
    turned himself in. Piker credited Owens with single-handedly 
    blocking Republican efforts to crack down on left-wing dissent
    by promoting unproven theories like Israel or Turning Point 
    USA involvement, drawing sharp conservative backlash that sees
    it as shielding extremism.
    
    <https://x.com/i/trending/2089443474827346409>

    
A RØDE microphone packed with PETN killed Kirk. Israel used PETN for its
infamous pager attack in 2024. Bibi gave a gold pager to Trump to 
commemorate his demonic act.
    The Epstein Coalition transcends political parties. Although the 
Coalition mouthpiece above asserts "unproven theories" it is the 
Coalition itself that continually pivots to new falsehoods in the face 
of Owens' unrelenting, mounting evidence.

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's  )\._.,--....,'``.                     veritas    _|_
telltale tall tail /,   _.. \   _\  (`._ ,.               liberabit   |
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'              vos         |

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#660459

Don wrote:

> 
> OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
> for gender fluidity:
> 
>      He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
>      himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
>      make him dejected by often failings,

Physicist and AF author Robert Forward disagreed.  He said that he 
preferred to tackle problems deemed impossible,as even a tiny amount of 
progress was significant.

It's a matter of attitude.  In chess tournaments I preferred to play 
people much stronger than I was.  I did not regard a loss against such a 
player as a disappointment, while even a draw against such was an 
achievement, and a win was fantastic.  By contrast, beating a dozen 
weaker players did not, in my view,add up to much.

But some people prefer to play opponents very nearly their own strength, 
in agreement with Bacon's point. Soviet trainers, long the best, felt 
this was the best way to improve.


  and the second will
>      make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.

The grant system rewards this kind of work, or as Tennyson said:

"Science moves, but slowly, slowly, creeping on from point to point"

- though many of the best scientists I knew took Bacon's advice.


William Hyde

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#660513

William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don wrote:
>
>>
>> OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
>> for gender fluidity:
>>
>>      He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
>>      himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
>>      make him dejected by often failings,
>
> Physicist and AF author Robert Forward disagreed.  He said that he
> preferred to tackle problems deemed impossible,as even a tiny amount of
> progress was significant.
>
> It's a matter of attitude.  In chess tournaments I preferred to play
> people much stronger than I was.  I did not regard a loss against such a
> player as a disappointment, while even a draw against such was an
> achievement, and a win was fantastic.  By contrast, beating a dozen
> weaker players did not, in my view,add up to much.
>
> But some people prefer to play opponents very nearly their own strength,
> in agreement with Bacon's point. Soviet trainers, long the best, felt
> this was the best way to improve.
>
>
>  and the second will
>>      make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.
>
> The grant system rewards this kind of work, or as Tennyson said:
>
> "Science moves, but slowly, slowly, creeping on from point to point"
>
> - though many of the best scientists I knew took Bacon's advice.

Lk 4:24 And he said, "Amen, I say to you, no prophet (eg truth teller) 
is accepted in his own native place."

In NOVUM ORGANUM, Book I, Aphorism 77, Bacon says it this way: "That men
should immediately examine what error or fault they have committed, when
the multitude concurs with and applauds them."

In Aphorism 79 Bacon grouses about how theological obsessions distract
men of wit to ultimately slow down scientific advancement.

EUREKA by Poe finds fault with both of Bacon's two speeds:

    For many centuries, so great was the infatuation, 
    about Hog (Bacon) especially, that a virtual stop was
    put to all thinking, properly so called. No man dared
    utter a truth for which he felt himself indebted to
    his soul alone.

--
Don.......My cat's  )\._.,--....,'``.                     veritas    _|_
telltale tall tail /,   _.. \   _\  (`._ ,.               liberabit   |
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'              vos         |

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#660521

Don wrote:
> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Don wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
>>> for gender fluidity:
>>>
>>>       He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
>>>       himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
>>>       make him dejected by often failings,
>>
>> Physicist and AF author Robert Forward disagreed.  He said that he
>> preferred to tackle problems deemed impossible,as even a tiny amount of
>> progress was significant.
>>
>> It's a matter of attitude.  In chess tournaments I preferred to play
>> people much stronger than I was.  I did not regard a loss against such a
>> player as a disappointment, while even a draw against such was an
>> achievement, and a win was fantastic.  By contrast, beating a dozen
>> weaker players did not, in my view,add up to much.
>>
>> But some people prefer to play opponents very nearly their own strength,
>> in agreement with Bacon's point. Soviet trainers, long the best, felt
>> this was the best way to improve.
>>
>>
>>   and the second will
>>>       make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.
>>
>> The grant system rewards this kind of work, or as Tennyson said:
>>
>> "Science moves, but slowly, slowly, creeping on from point to point"
>>
>> - though many of the best scientists I knew took Bacon's advice.
> 
> Lk 4:24 And he said, "Amen, I say to you, no prophet (eg truth teller)
> is accepted in his own native place."

My take on this is that most prophets are merely layabouts trying to 
avoid real work, and the people who know them best are on to the con.

> 
> In NOVUM ORGANUM, Book I, Aphorism 77, Bacon says it this way: "That men
> should immediately examine what error or fault they have committed, when
> the multitude concurs with and applauds them."

This actually worked wonders for soviet chess.  They were self critical 
in the extreme, and this helped them. Fischer, one of the soviet 
school's greatest members, can be seen doing this in his "My 60 
memorable games". In one case he comments "Ironically, I wouldn't have 
won the brilliancy prize if I had chosen  the strongest move here".

> 
> In Aphorism 79 Bacon grouses about how theological obsessions distract
> men of wit to ultimately slow down scientific advancement.

Bacon could have had in mind Dr Dee, who after doing good work in 
mathematics drifted into occultism.  From the perspective of a believer, 
I suppose it does make sense to summon an angel and ask it about the 
laws of physics, rather than spend your entire life making what seems to 
you a small amount of progress.  But if the angel never shows up you've 
wasted your life.

The above is an oversimplification of a very complex man, of course.  He 
was writing Hermetic works from a fairly early age.
> 
> EUREKA by Poe finds fault with both of Bacon's two speeds:
> 
>      For many centuries, so great was the infatuation,
>      about Hog (Bacon) especially, that a virtual stop was
>      put to all thinking, properly so called. No man dared
>      utter a truth for which he felt himself indebted to
>      his soul alone.

Newton and Lavoisier, Spinoza and Leibnitz, Linnaeus and Hutton, all 
postdated Bacon and predated Poe. I'd say they did a lot of thinking, 
properly so called.

Poe hated chess.  If he tried to find the right moves by questioning his 
soul, that is understandable.

William Hyde

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#660533

William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don wrote:
>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Don wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
>>>> for gender fluidity:
>>>>
>>>>       He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
>>>>       himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
>>>>       make him dejected by often failings,
>>>
>>> Physicist and AF author Robert Forward disagreed.  He said that he
>>> preferred to tackle problems deemed impossible,as even a tiny amount of
>>> progress was significant.
>>>
>>> It's a matter of attitude.  In chess tournaments I preferred to play
>>> people much stronger than I was.  I did not regard a loss against such a
>>> player as a disappointment, while even a draw against such was an
>>> achievement, and a win was fantastic.  By contrast, beating a dozen
>>> weaker players did not, in my view,add up to much.
>>>
>>> But some people prefer to play opponents very nearly their own strength,
>>> in agreement with Bacon's point. Soviet trainers, long the best, felt
>>> this was the best way to improve.
>>>
>>>
>>>   and the second will
>>>>       make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.
>>>
>>> The grant system rewards this kind of work, or as Tennyson said:
>>>
>>> "Science moves, but slowly, slowly, creeping on from point to point"
>>>
>>> - though many of the best scientists I knew took Bacon's advice.
>>
>> Lk 4:24 And he said, "Amen, I say to you, no prophet (eg truth teller)
>> is accepted in his own native place."
>
> My take on this is that most prophets are merely layabouts trying to
> avoid real work, and the people who know them best are on to the con.
>
>>
>> In NOVUM ORGANUM, Book I, Aphorism 77, Bacon says it this way: "That men
>> should immediately examine what error or fault they have committed, when
>> the multitude concurs with and applauds them."
>
> This actually worked wonders for soviet chess.  They were self critical
> in the extreme, and this helped them. Fischer, one of the soviet
> school's greatest members, can be seen doing this in his "My 60
> memorable games". In one case he comments "Ironically, I wouldn't have
> won the brilliancy prize if I had chosen  the strongest move here".
>
>>
>> In Aphorism 79 Bacon grouses about how theological obsessions distract
>> men of wit to ultimately slow down scientific advancement.
>
> Bacon could have had in mind Dr Dee, who after doing good work in
> mathematics drifted into occultism.  From the perspective of a believer,
> I suppose it does make sense to summon an angel and ask it about the
> laws of physics, rather than spend your entire life making what seems to
> you a small amount of progress.  But if the angel never shows up you've
> wasted your life.
>
> The above is an oversimplification of a very complex man, of course.  He
> was writing Hermetic works from a fairly early age.
>>
>> EUREKA by Poe finds fault with both of Bacon's two speeds:
>>
>>      For many centuries, so great was the infatuation,
>>      about Hog (Bacon) especially, that a virtual stop was
>>      put to all thinking, properly so called. No man dared
>>      utter a truth for which he felt himself indebted to
>>      his soul alone.
>
> Newton and Lavoisier, Spinoza and Leibnitz, Linnaeus and Hutton, all
> postdated Bacon and predated Poe. I'd say they did a lot of thinking,
> properly so called.
>
> Poe hated chess.  If he tried to find the right moves by questioning his
> soul, that is understandable.

Another pertinent excerpt from EUREKA by Poe:

    Kepler admitted that these laws he guessed -- these
    laws whose investigation disclosed to the greatest of
    British astronomers that principle, the basis of all
    (existing) physical principle, in going behind which
    we enter at once the nebulous kingdom of Metaphysics.
    Yes! -- these vital laws Kepler guessed -- that it is
    to say, he imagined them. Had he been asked to point
    out either the deductive or inductive route by which
    he attained them, his reply might have been -- 'I
    know nothing about routes -- but I do know the
    machinery of the Universe. Here it is. I grasped it
    with my soul -- I reached it through mere dint of
    intuition. 'Alas, poor ignorant old man! Could not any
    metaphysician have told him that what he called
    'intuition' was but the conviction resulting from
    deductions or inductions of which the processes were
    so shadowy as to have escaped his consciousness,
    eluded his reason, or bidden defiance to his capacity
    of expression? How great a pity it is that some 'moral
    philosopher' had not enlightened him about all this!
    How it would have comforted him on his death-bed to
    know that, instead of having gone intuitively and
    thus unbecomingly, he had, in fact, proceeded
    decorously and legitimately -- that is to say
    Hog-ishly (Bacon), or at least Ram-ishly (Aristotle)
    -- into the vast halls where lay gleaming, untended,
    and hitherto untouched by mortal hand -- unseen by
    mortal eye -- the imperishable and priceless secrets
    of the Universe!

--
Don.......My cat's  )\._.,--....,'``.                     veritas    _|_
telltale tall tail /,   _.. \   _\  (`._ ,.               liberabit   |
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'              vos         |

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#660559

Don wrote:

> 
> Another pertinent excerpt from EUREKA by Poe:
> 
>      Kepler admitted that these laws he guessed -- these
>      laws whose investigation disclosed to the greatest of
>      British astronomers that principle, the basis of all
>      (existing) physical principle, in going behind which
>      we enter at once the nebulous kingdom of Metaphysics.
>      Yes! -- these vital laws Kepler guessed -- that it is
>      to say, he imagined them. Had he been asked to point
>      out either the deductive or inductive route by which
>      he attained them, his reply might have been -- 'I
>      know nothing about routes -- but I do know the
>      machinery of the Universe. Here it is. I grasped it
>      with my soul -- I reached it through mere dint of
>      intuition. 'Alas, poor ignorant old man! Could not any
>      metaphysician have told him that what he called
>      'intuition' was but the conviction resulting from
>      deductions or inductions of which the processes were
>      so shadowy as to have escaped his consciousness,
>      eluded his reason, or bidden defiance to his capacity
>      of expression? How great a pity it is that some 'moral
>      philosopher' had not enlightened him about all this!
>      How it would have comforted him on his death-bed to
>      know that, instead of having gone intuitively and
>      thus unbecomingly, he had, in fact, proceeded
>      decorously and legitimately -- that is to say
>      Hog-ishly (Bacon), or at least Ram-ishly (Aristotle)
>      -- into the vast halls where lay gleaming, untended,
>      and hitherto untouched by mortal hand -- unseen by
>      mortal eye -- the imperishable and priceless secrets
>      of the Universe!

That might pass muster in a bar where people are drunkenly arguing. 
Nowhere else.


Luckily for us, he turned his brilliance mostly towards fiction and poetry.

William Hyde

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#660562

William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don wrote:
>
>>
>> Another pertinent excerpt from EUREKA by Poe:
>>
>>      Kepler admitted that these laws he guessed ---- these
>>      laws whose investigation disclosed to the greatest of
>>      British astronomers that principle, the basis of all
>>      (existing) physical principle, in going behind which
>>      we enter at once the nebulous kingdom of Metaphysics.
>>      Yes! ---- these vital laws Kepler guessed ---- that it is
>>      to say, he imagined them. Had he been asked to point
>>      out either the deductive or inductive route by which
>>      he attained them, his reply might have been ---- 'I
>>      know nothing about routes ---- but I do know the
>>      machinery of the Universe. Here it is. I grasped it
>>      with my soul ---- I reached it through mere dint of
>>      intuition. 'Alas, poor ignorant old man! Could not any
>>      metaphysician have told him that what he called
>>      'intuition' was but the conviction resulting from
>>      deductions or inductions of which the processes were
>>      so shadowy as to have escaped his consciousness,
>>      eluded his reason, or bidden defiance to his capacity
>>      of expression? How great a pity it is that some 'moral
>>      philosopher' had not enlightened him about all this!
>>      How it would have comforted him on his death--bed to
>>      know that, instead of having gone intuitively and
>>      thus unbecomingly, he had, in fact, proceeded
>>      decorously and legitimately ---- that is to say
>>      Hog--ishly (Bacon), or at least Ram--ishly (Aristotle)
>>      ---- into the vast halls where lay gleaming, untended,
>>      and hitherto untouched by mortal hand ---- unseen by
>>      mortal eye ---- the imperishable and priceless secrets
>>      of the Universe!
>
> That might pass muster in a bar where people are drunkenly arguing.
> Nowhere else.
>
>
> Luckily for us, he turned his brilliance mostly towards fiction and poetry.

Even more luckily, London literary slop lost narrative control. Come on
William, live a little, and laugh along with Poe as he pokes pompous
posers.  

    EDGAR ALLAN POE: THE LOST SOUL OF AMERICA by Allen Salisbury:

    (excerpt)
    
    Poe often had a great deal of fun composing tales that
    mocked the methods employed by the leading British literary
    journals. One of Poe's favorite targets in this regard was
    Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine. Blackwood's was notorious 
    for its sense-certainty literary style, and this style was
    the source for two of the most hilarious satires written by
    Poe, "How to Write a Blackwood Article," and "A Predicament."
    
    ...

    In his tale of ratiocination "The Purloined Letter," Poe
    presents us with a problem that is unresolvable by methods 
    of "creeping"-sense certainty. Here we have a problem
    concerning the letter and its whereabouts. Yet the prefect
    of police, carrying sense-certainty methods to their
    extremes, cannot locate it. Dupin, using superior methods,
    does. Poe's story "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" is a case
    where reason succeeds, while mere deduction from certain 
    clues fails.

    On this point, Edgar Allan Poe drove Arthur Conan Doyle
    into hysterical fits of defending the deductive method. For
    example, in his introduction to A Study in Scarlet, Doyle
    has Sherlock Holmes react the following way when Watson
    informs him that it is the Earth that revolves around the
    sun:
 
        "Now that I do know it I shall do my best to
        forget it."
    
    ...
    
    Later Holmes defends Euclid, the Aristotelean whom Poe
    attacked. Still later, he attacks Poe’s method directly:
    
        "No doubt you think that you are complimenting
        me in comparing me to Dupin," he observed. "Now,
        in my opinion, Dupin was a very inferior fellow.
        That trick of his of breaking in on his friends’
        thoughts with an apropos remark after a quarter
        of an hour’s silence is really very showy and
        superficial. He had some analytical genius, no
        doubt; but he was by no means such a phenomenon
        as Poe appeared to imagine."

    On this same point--that of having the ability to look
    into the very soul of another--Arthur Conan Doyle's
    countryman Charles Dickens believed Poe possessed
    some sort of mystical powers. It was Poe's habit to guess
    the ending of the Dickens novels which appeared in serial
    form in American magazines. Having successfully "guessed"
    the ending of several novels, Poe proceeded to explain why
    it was so easy to determine the ending of a novel written
    by formula. The reader should not be amazed at this ability.
    It is somewhat akin to the way you are able to predict the
    outcome of so many of the "made for television" movies that
    you watch every night, bored but glued to the chair as you
    await the next jiggle of sensation to flash across the boob
    tube.
    
    ...

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's  )\._.,--....,'``.                     veritas    _|_
telltale tall tail /,   _.. \   _\  (`._ ,.               liberabit   |
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'              vos         |

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#660454

On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:
> 
>> On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>>>
>>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
>>
>> 	Exactly!
>>
>> 	bliss
> 
> This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
> gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
> wars these days.


	Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
the gender variants rights as human beings presently.
	Probably less than !% of the populace are gender variant and
the only Transgender ideology is that the the people who are in
discomfort because of anatomical disparities should be given palliative
care.
	The dominate side of the discussion comes from the so-Called
Christian Right who reject the idea that transgenderism points to the
existence of the Spirit or even perhaps a soul generated beyond the
physical.
	It has been about 60 years since I read the story mentioned.

	bliss

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#660456

On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 07:40:32 -0700, BobbieSellers
<bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

>On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:
>> 
>>> On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>>>>
>>>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
>>>
>>> 	Exactly!
>>>
>>> 	bliss
>> 
>> This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
>> gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
>> wars these days.
>
>
>	Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
>the gender variants rights as human beings presently.

Perhaps by "leading" he meant "winning". As I have noted before, the
people you are referring to, despite loudly wanting a "culture war",
have been losing since at least the 1950s:
-- no-fault divorce
-- the end of the South's Special System
-- gays out in the open, instead of in the closet
-- Roe v Wade (reversed ... for now)
-- gay marriage
-- the entire trans phenomenon

That's a lot of losing.

>	Probably less than !% of the populace are gender variant and
>the only Transgender ideology is that the the people who are in
>discomfort because of anatomical disparities should be given palliative
>care.
>	The dominate side of the discussion comes from the so-Called
>Christian Right who reject the idea that transgenderism points to the
>existence of the Spirit or even perhaps a soul generated beyond the
>physical.

I haven't run across anyone else suggesting that.

In my continual reading of the Bible, I recently came across both
Isaiah's and Jeremiah's statements on the topic of when God first knew
them. Both, IMHO, support the idea that the soul is added when a live
birth occurs.

Unfortunately, since I have never explicitly searched for this, nor
have any of the books or articles I have read gone into much detail
(this is, apparently, a topic not much discussed nowadays) I do not
know what the traditional view of the relation of body and soul is, or
what variants exist. I have read of a view that the parents create it
as they do the body, but how accepted that is I have no idea. There is
also the idea (going back to at least Plato) that the souls exist
outside the World and are inserted into the body at birth (the dialog
this is in also includes reincarnation, so the whole concept may have
come from the East).

[1] Note to a prior responder: the criterion is independence, not
capability. Breathing with a respirator independently of the mother
counts.

Speaking theoretically, someone who believed:
-- that a human being is composed of body and soul; and
-- that the soul has gender just as the body does
would, it seems to me, conclude that
-- trans is the result of the two genders differing
in which case preferring the body's gender (that is, rejecting sex
change treatment because the body's gender is the "real" gender)
implies that they consider the body (which returns to the dust and, in
the Resurrection is replaced) more important than the soul (Plato's
soul is immortal and, being spirit, unchanging in the physical sense)
-- which seems to me to be a rather strange attitude for someone
claiming to be a believer.

But this is all very speculative.
-- 
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

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#660470

On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 08:58:58 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 07:40:32 -0700, BobbieSellers
> <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon
>>>>>
>>>>> Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
>>>>
>>>> 	Exactly!
>>>>
>>>> 	bliss
>>> 
>>> This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing gender
>>> differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture wars these
>>> days.
>>
>>
>>	Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
>>the gender variants rights as human beings presently.
> 
> Perhaps by "leading" he meant "winning". As I have noted before, the
> people you are referring to, despite loudly wanting a "culture war",
> have been losing since at least the 1950s:
> -- no-fault divorce -- the end of the South's Special System -- gays out
> in the open, instead of in the closet -- Roe v Wade (reversed ... for
> now)
> -- gay marriage -- the entire trans phenomenon
> 
> That's a lot of losing.
> 


The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the
1990s. 

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