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Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology

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  Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-28 13:01 -0600
    Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-29 12:24 +0000
      Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 14:35 -0400
        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-29 12:41 -0600
        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-04-29 13:05 -0700
        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-04-29 14:08 -0700
          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-29 14:28 -0700
            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-29 21:47 +0000
        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-29 20:51 +0000
          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-04-29 14:23 -0700
            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 17:48 -0400
            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-29 16:08 -0600
              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-04-30 14:21 +1200
            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-30 03:46 -0500
              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-04-30 06:52 -0700
                Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-30 14:12 +0000
                  Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-04-30 10:28 -0700
                Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-30 10:10 -0600
                  Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-04-30 16:24 +0000
                    Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-04-30 10:41 -0700
                      Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-30 12:27 -0600
                        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-04-30 13:03 -0700
                        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 15:46 -0700
                    Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2018-04-30 18:17 -0700
                      Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-04-30 21:01 -0700
                  Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-05-01 19:18 -0600
                    Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-05-01 22:25 -0400
                    Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-05-02 02:01 +0000
                      Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 03:07 -0400
                        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-05-02 13:28 +0000
                          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-05-02 07:45 -0700
                          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-05-02 14:51 +0000
                            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2018-05-09 00:04 -0300
                              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-05-09 04:09 +0000
                            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-06-04 00:06 +0000
                              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-06-05 02:27 -0700
                                Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-06-05 12:50 +0000
                                  Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-06-05 06:53 -0700
                                    Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-06-05 14:52 +0000
                                      Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-06-05 09:00 -0700
                                        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 09:16 -0700
                                          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 13:07 -0400
                                            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 11:13 -0700
                                              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 15:01 -0400
                                            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-06-05 19:05 -0700
                                              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 02:39 +0000
                                                Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 02:30 -0400
                          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 09:06 -0700
                            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-05-02 09:30 -0700
                        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 12:41 -0700
                          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2018-05-02 20:33 +0000
                            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Johnny1A <johnny1a.again@gmail.com> - 2018-05-16 22:06 -0700
                        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology "Default User" <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> - 2018-05-03 00:19 +0000
          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 02:34 -0400
            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 05:36 -0700
              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-30 13:47 +0000
              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 12:29 -0400
            Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-30 13:30 +0000
              Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-30 16:09 +0000
        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-29 21:29 +0000
          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 02:35 -0400
        Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-30 03:43 -0500
          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-30 02:00 -0700
          Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 06:59 -0700
    Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-29 06:21 -0700
      Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-29 15:24 +0000
    Re: Ray Bradbury and his issue with technology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-04-29 14:06 -0700

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#491362

On 2018-04-30 11:41 AM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 12:24:47 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <pc7f5o$7nl$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old
>>> literature for his tropes?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark
>>> Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
>>
>> Could it be.. SATAN?
>>
> 
> On level down from The Big Bad, since that position is filled by
> Melkor/Morgoth. Mairon/Sauron would be whoever Lucifer/Satan's
> top lieutenant "fallen angel" was.  Somebody like Beelzebul,
> perhaps.
> 
> But JRRR said LoTR isn't an allegory, so there doesn't have to
> be one-to-one correspondence with the Christian legendarium,
> not with any other muthological system.

He said it wasn't an allegory about 20th century politics.  But I'm 
pretty sure that Eru is God and Melkor is Satan.  That's not allegory 
any more than Numenor being Atlantis is allegory.

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#491369

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 2:27:59 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2018-04-30 11:41 AM, Kevrob wrote:
> > On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 12:24:47 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >> In article <pc7f5o$7nl$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
> >> David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> >>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old
> >>> literature for his tropes?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark
> >>> Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
> >>
> >> Could it be.. SATAN?
> >>
> > 
> > On level down from The Big Bad, since that position is filled by
> > Melkor/Morgoth. Mairon/Sauron would be whoever Lucifer/Satan's
> > top lieutenant "fallen angel" was.  Somebody like Beelzebul,
> > perhaps.
> > 
> > But JRRR said LoTR isn't an allegory, so there doesn't have to
> > be one-to-one correspondence with the Christian legendarium,
> > not with any other muthological system.
> 
> He said it wasn't an allegory about 20th century politics.  But I'm 
> pretty sure that Eru is God and Melkor is Satan.  That's not allegory 
> any more than Numenor being Atlantis is allegory.

"The devil's lieutenant" position in pre-20th century politics
was often described as a particular human who was usually accused
of being the Antichrist: Nero, Caligula, Muhammad, Suleiman,
Napoleon, and of course Lenin, Stalin and Hitler.  I suppose
ordinary folk feared these threats were demon-possessed, or
witches or sorcerers in league with the devil. Approximately,
they'd be on the level of the Witch-king of Angmar, who was a 
corrupted man, as were all the Nazgul.

Other "Dark Lords" with lieutenants and troops at their beck and call?

Fu Manchu and his many knock-offs? Count Dracula?  Professor Moriarty?
John Sunlight appeared in DOC SAVAGE while JRRT was writing LoTR. 
Ming the Merciless is "Fu Manchu......IN SPACE," at least visually.
King John in the tales of Robin Hood?

Kevin R 

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#491386

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:pc7n7a$mbd$2@gioia.aioe.org: 

> On 2018-04-30 11:41 AM, Kevrob wrote:
>> On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 12:24:47 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan
>> <tednolan> wrote: 
>>> In article <pc7f5o$7nl$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>> David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he
>>>>> raid old 
>>>> literature for his tropes?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a
>>>> Sauron-like Dark Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before
>>>> Tolkien? 
>>>
>>> Could it be.. SATAN?
>>>
>> 
>> On level down from The Big Bad, since that position is filled
>> by Melkor/Morgoth. Mairon/Sauron would be whoever
>> Lucifer/Satan's top lieutenant "fallen angel" was.  Somebody
>> like Beelzebul, perhaps.
>> 
>> But JRRR said LoTR isn't an allegory, so there doesn't have to
>> be one-to-one correspondence with the Christian legendarium,
>> not with any other muthological system.
> 
> He said it wasn't an allegory about 20th century politics.  But
> I'm pretty sure that Eru is God and Melkor is Satan.  That's not
> allegory any more than Numenor being Atlantis is allegory.
> 
Tolkein drew heavily on anglo-saxon mythology, including pre-
Christian mythology. And he mixed it all up pretty well.

-- 
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland: 
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

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#491403

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 2:24:47 AM UTC+10, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <pc7f5o$7nl$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old
> >literature for his tropes?
> >> 
> >
> >Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark 
> >Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
> 
> Could it be.. SATAN?

Or Surtur?

-Moriarty

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#491416

On 4/30/2018 6:17 PM, Moriarty wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 2:24:47 AM UTC+10, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <pc7f5o$7nl$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old
>>> literature for his tropes?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark
>>> Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
>>
>> Could it be.. SATAN?
> 
> Or Surtur?
> 
Ghengis Khan!


-- 
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation 
instinct are running screaming.

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#491483

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old literature for his tropes?
>> 
>
>Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark 
>Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?

The witch's flying monkeys?
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#491485

On Tue, 01 May 2018 19:18:15 -0600, Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:

>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old literature for his tropes?
>>> 
>>
>>Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark 
>>Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
>
>The witch's flying monkeys?

I'm pretty sure there was something like that somewhere in Burroughs,
but can't recall exactly where off the top of my head.

In Oz, the Nome King comes closer I think.

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#491486

In article <fkshvcFio4lU2@mid.individual.net>,
Greg Goss  <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old
>literature for his tropes?
>>> 
>>
>>Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark 
>>Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
>
>The witch's flying monkeys?

The question would then arise, whether Tolkien ever *read* _The
Wizard of Oz._

I probably need to reread the Eddas, before I attempt to answer
David's question.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#491503

On Wed, 2 May 2018 02:01:58 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <fkshvcFio4lU2@mid.individual.net>,
>Greg Goss  <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
>>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old
>>literature for his tropes?
>>>> 
>>>
>>>Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark 
>>>Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
>>
>>The witch's flying monkeys?
>
>The question would then arise, whether Tolkien ever *read* _The
>Wizard of Oz._

Probably.  He read a lot, including American fiction.

He apparently took an interest in American culture, partly because he
discovered there were Anglo-Saxon family names surviving in Appalachia
that had gone extinct in England (e.g., Brinegar -- I knew several
Brinegars when we lived in the Kentucky hills).

And speaking of the Inklings, let us not forget that C.S. Lewis said
that he swiped some of the ideas in "The Great Divorce" from an
American SF pulp magazine.  Not something I'd expect him to have read.




-- 
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned:  A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

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#491508

In article <uloied1aptbgouf25cea576nks031821gk@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
Lawrence Watt-Evans  <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 2 May 2018 02:01:58 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <fkshvcFio4lU2@mid.individual.net>,
>>Greg Goss  <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
>>>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old
>>>literature for his tropes?
>>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark 
>>>>Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
>>>
>>>The witch's flying monkeys?
>>
>>The question would then arise, whether Tolkien ever *read* _The
>>Wizard of Oz._
>
>Probably.  He read a lot, including American fiction.
>
>He apparently took an interest in American culture, partly because he
>discovered there were Anglo-Saxon family names surviving in Appalachia
>that had gone extinct in England (e.g., Brinegar -- I knew several
>Brinegars when we lived in the Kentucky hills).
>
>And speaking of the Inklings, let us not forget that C.S. Lewis said
>that he swiped some of the ideas in "The Great Divorce" from an
>American SF pulp magazine.  Not something I'd expect him to have read.
>
He and Tolkien both read some SF.  At one point they got together
and said, "Okay, let's us write some SF/F," and Lewis wrote the
Ransom trilogy and Tolkien wrote, IIRC, _Autrou and Itroun,_
which didn't sell until after he'd died.

But note that Lewis could write more quickly than Tolkien, who
was always going back and revising.

Somewhere on disk, I believe, I still have the post where
somebody identified the SF story Lewis referenced (~"His hero
traveled into the past, and there found grass that wounded the
feet and apples that couldn't be bitten into, because the past
can't be changed."~)  I'll see if I can find it.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#491511

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 7:45:09 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:


> Somewhere on disk, I believe, I still have the post where
> somebody identified the SF story Lewis referenced (~"His hero
> traveled into the past, and there found grass that wounded the
> feet and apples that couldn't be bitten into, because the past
> can't be changed."~)  I'll see if I can find it.

Those science-fiction authors and their sloppy science!

In a past that really can't be changed, the air would trap a time traveller like amber!

Actually, it would be even worse, and I can't really blame an author for not 
letting scientific accuracy get in the way of a scenario this poetic.

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#491514

In article <p83s30.noC@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <uloied1aptbgouf25cea576nks031821gk@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
>Lawrence Watt-Evans  <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 2 May 2018 02:01:58 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <fkshvcFio4lU2@mid.individual.net>,
>>>Greg Goss  <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
>>>>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2018-04-30 7:52 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> I know that happened to Shakespeare. But Tolkien? Didn't he raid old
>>>>literature for his tropes?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>Doesn't everyone.  But can you think of an example of a Sauron-like Dark 
>>>>>Lord with a horde of monster soldiers before Tolkien?
>>>>
>>>>The witch's flying monkeys?
>>>
>>>The question would then arise, whether Tolkien ever *read* _The
>>>Wizard of Oz._
>>
>>Probably.  He read a lot, including American fiction.
>>
>>He apparently took an interest in American culture, partly because he
>>discovered there were Anglo-Saxon family names surviving in Appalachia
>>that had gone extinct in England (e.g., Brinegar -- I knew several
>>Brinegars when we lived in the Kentucky hills).
>>
>>And speaking of the Inklings, let us not forget that C.S. Lewis said
>>that he swiped some of the ideas in "The Great Divorce" from an
>>American SF pulp magazine.  Not something I'd expect him to have read.
>>
>He and Tolkien both read some SF.  At one point they got together
>and said, "Okay, let's us write some SF/F," and Lewis wrote the
>Ransom trilogy and Tolkien wrote, IIRC, _Autrou and Itroun,_
>which didn't sell until after he'd died.
>
>But note that Lewis could write more quickly than Tolkien, who
>was always going back and revising.
>
>Somewhere on disk, I believe, I still have the post where
>somebody identified the SF story Lewis referenced (~"His hero
>traveled into the past, and there found grass that wounded the
>feet and apples that couldn't be bitten into, because the past
>can't be changed."~)  I'll see if I can find it.

Update:  Found it.

In 2002, Fred Galvin posted as follows:

>I think this may be it: Charles F. Hall, "The Man Who Lived
>Backwards", Tales of Wonder [British], Summer, 1938. I haven't seen it
>myself; I'm going by the review on p. 217 of Paul J. Nahin, Time
>Machines, Second Edition, Springer, 1999, ISBN 0-387-98571-9.  Quoting
>from Nahin's book:
>
>
>  The tale tells of a young physics teacher who is "twisted into a
>  reversed Time Stream" by an electrical discharge. As he lives
>  backward in time, he observes everybody about him appearing to
>  run in reverse, but even more puzzling is that they have developed
>  a "dreadful, granite-like hardness." We soon learn why:
>
>     For a while he could not understand the inpenetrable hardness
>     of external objects which he had experienced; it seemed
>     they ought rather to be of intangible transience, much as a
>     dream, since he was re-viewing the Past. But a moment's
>     thought gave him the logical answer. The Past is definite,
>     shaped, unalterable, as nothing else in Creation is.  Therefore,
>     to argue that he could move or alter any object here [the
>     past] was to argue that he could change the whole history of
>     the world or cosmos. Everything he saw about him had happened,
>     and could not be changed in any way. On the other hand he was
>     fluid, movable, alterable, since _his_ future still lay before
>     him, even if it had been reversed; he was the intruder, the
>     anomaly. In any clash between himself and the Past, the Past
>     would prove irresistible every time.
>
>  This is, I believe, a unique presentation of the unchangeability
>  of the past. Why Hall's young teacher could displace the molecules
>  of the Past's air, however, is left unanswered.


-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#491833

On Wed, 2 May 2018 14:51:59 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

> >  This is, I believe, a unique presentation of the unchangeability
> >  of the past. Why Hall's young teacher could displace the molecules
> >  of the Past's air, however, is left unanswered.

This question was also left unanswered when Super Goof went into the
past hoping to reform the Beagle Boys.

-- 
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

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#491835

In article <kuo4fd17a3cdq79jmijsb2memn9k70adj2@4ax.com>,
Joy Beeson  <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 2 May 2018 14:51:59 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>> >  This is, I believe, a unique presentation of the unchangeability
>> >  of the past. Why Hall's young teacher could displace the molecules
>> >  of the Past's air, however, is left unanswered.
>
>This question was also left unanswered when Super Goof went into the
>past hoping to reform the Beagle Boys.
>

But, do they have names before the first time they go to jail?
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#492854

Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <p83s30.noC@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <uloied1aptbgouf25cea576nks031821gk@reader80.eternal-september.org>
 
<snip>

>>Somewhere on disk, I believe, I still have the post where
>>somebody identified the SF story Lewis referenced (~"His hero
>>traveled into the past, and there found grass that wounded the
>>feet and apples that couldn't be bitten into, because the past
>>can't be changed."~)  I'll see if I can find it.
>
> Update:  Found it.
>
> In 2002, Fred Galvin posted as follows:
>
>>I think this may be it: Charles F. Hall, "The Man Who Lived
>>Backwards", Tales of Wonder [British], Summer, 1938. I haven't seen it
>>myself; I'm going by the review on p. 217 of Paul J. Nahin, Time
>>Machines, Second Edition, Springer, 1999, ISBN 0-387-98571-9.  Quoting
>>from Nahin's book:
>>
>>
>>  The tale tells of a young physics teacher who is "twisted into a
>>  reversed Time Stream" by an electrical discharge. As he lives
>>  backward in time, he observes everybody about him appearing to
>>  run in reverse, but even more puzzling is that they have developed
>>  a "dreadful, granite-like hardness." We soon learn why:
>>
>>     For a while he could not understand the inpenetrable hardness
>>     of external objects which he had experienced; it seemed
>>     they ought rather to be of intangible transience, much as a
>>     dream, since he was re-viewing the Past. But a moment's
>>     thought gave him the logical answer. The Past is definite,
>>     shaped, unalterable, as nothing else in Creation is.  Therefore,
>>     to argue that he could move or alter any object here [the
>>     past] was to argue that he could change the whole history of
>>     the world or cosmos. Everything he saw about him had happened,
>>     and could not be changed in any way. On the other hand he was
>>     fluid, movable, alterable, since _his_ future still lay before
>>     him, even if it had been reversed; he was the intruder, the
>>     anomaly. In any clash between himself and the Past, the Past
>>     would prove irresistible every time.
>>
>>  This is, I believe, a unique presentation of the unchangeability
>>  of the past. Why Hall's young teacher could displace the molecules
>>  of the Past's air, however, is left unanswered.

_Oxford Dictionary_ defines an object as "a material thing that can be 
seen and touched." Presumably a material thing seen with the naked eye 
and tactilely touched. 
    Hall knows about atoms. He mentions them in "The Time-Drug." 
Molecules are matter waves. [1] That's why Rostof, the man who lived 
backwards, is able to breathe molecules.
    Hall's entire opus consists of three short stories available as a
collection in _The Man Who Lived Backwards and Other Stories_. [2] You
can read my review of Hall's collection at:

http://crcomp.net/review/manwholivedbackwards/index.html

    Noden Books published the collection in 2017. The back side of the
title page declares "This edition copyright © Nodens Books, L.L.C." That
wording seems a little off to me. What are the legal ramifications of
"this edition?" Does it imply that the stories themselves are in the
public domain?

Note.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave#Molecules
2. ISBN 9781976499418

✍

Thank you,

-- 
Don

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#492947

On Monday, 4 June 2018 01:06:58 UTC+1, D B Davis  wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > In article <p83s30.noC@kithrup.com>,
> > Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >>In article <uloied1aptbgouf25cea576nks031821gk@reader80.eternal-september.org>
>  
> <snip>
> 
> >>Somewhere on disk, I believe, I still have the post where
> >>somebody identified the SF story Lewis referenced (~"His hero
> >>traveled into the past, and there found grass that wounded the
> >>feet and apples that couldn't be bitten into, because the past
> >>can't be changed."~)  I'll see if I can find it.
> >
> > Update:  Found it.
> >
> > In 2002, Fred Galvin posted as follows:
> >
> >>I think this may be it: Charles F. Hall, "The Man Who Lived
> >>Backwards", Tales of Wonder [British], Summer, 1938. I haven't seen it
> >>myself; I'm going by the review on p. 217 of Paul J. Nahin, Time
> >>Machines, Second Edition, Springer, 1999, ISBN 0-387-98571-9.  Quoting
> >>from Nahin's book:
> >>
> >>
> >>  The tale tells of a young physics teacher who is "twisted into a
> >>  reversed Time Stream" by an electrical discharge. As he lives
> >>  backward in time, he observes everybody about him appearing to
> >>  run in reverse, but even more puzzling is that they have developed
> >>  a "dreadful, granite-like hardness." We soon learn why:
> >>
> >>     For a while he could not understand the inpenetrable hardness
> >>     of external objects which he had experienced; it seemed
> >>     they ought rather to be of intangible transience, much as a
> >>     dream, since he was re-viewing the Past. But a moment's
> >>     thought gave him the logical answer. The Past is definite,
> >>     shaped, unalterable, as nothing else in Creation is.  Therefore,
> >>     to argue that he could move or alter any object here [the
> >>     past] was to argue that he could change the whole history of
> >>     the world or cosmos. Everything he saw about him had happened,
> >>     and could not be changed in any way. On the other hand he was
> >>     fluid, movable, alterable, since _his_ future still lay before
> >>     him, even if it had been reversed; he was the intruder, the
> >>     anomaly. In any clash between himself and the Past, the Past
> >>     would prove irresistible every time.
> >>
> >>  This is, I believe, a unique presentation of the unchangeability
> >>  of the past. Why Hall's young teacher could displace the molecules
> >>  of the Past's air, however, is left unanswered.
> 
> _Oxford Dictionary_ defines an object as "a material thing that can be 
> seen and touched." Presumably a material thing seen with the naked eye 
> and tactilely touched. 
>     Hall knows about atoms. He mentions them in "The Time-Drug." 
> Molecules are matter waves. [1] That's why Rostof, the man who lived 
> backwards, is able to breathe molecules.
>     Hall's entire opus consists of three short stories available as a
> collection in _The Man Who Lived Backwards and Other Stories_. [2] You
> can read my review of Hall's collection at:
> 
> http://crcomp.net/review/manwholivedbackwards/index.html
> 
>     Noden Books published the collection in 2017. The back side of the
> title page declares "This edition copyright © Nodens Books, L.L.C." That
> wording seems a little off to me. What are the legal ramifications of
> "this edition?" Does it imply that the stories themselves are in the
> public domain?
> 
> Note.
> 
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave#Molecules
> 2. ISBN 9781976499418

This isn't my field but I guess that the stories are
public domain in the U.S. but not in Europe.  Your book
is from a U.S. chapbook publisher, and copyright may be 
claimed on the text-editing work to produce it, and maybe 
the typesetting, perhaps art.  So you shouldn't just
Xerox it, for instance.

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#492955

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 4 June 2018 01:06:58 UTC+1, D B Davis  wrote:

<snip>

>>     Hall's entire opus consists of three short stories available as a
>> collection in _The Man Who Lived Backwards and Other Stories_. [2] You
>> can read my review of Hall's collection at:
>>
>> http://crcomp.net/review/manwholivedbackwards/index.html
>>
>>     Noden Books published the collection in 2017. The back side of the
>> title page declares "This edition copyright © Nodens Books, L.L.C." That
>> wording seems a little off to me. What are the legal ramifications of
>> "this edition?" Does it imply that the stories themselves are in the
>> public domain?
>>
>> Note.
>>
>> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave#Molecules
>> 2. ISBN 9781976499418
>
> This isn't my field but I guess that the stories are
> public domain in the U.S. but not in Europe.  Your book
> is from a U.S. chapbook publisher, and copyright may be
> claimed on the text-editing work to produce it, and maybe
> the typesetting, perhaps art.  So you shouldn't just
> Xerox it, for instance.

You confirm my suspicions of an oh-so-carefully-worded copyright "tell" 
that tries to avoid any mention of "public domain." It's a shame. The 
publisher earns his keep by making it convenient for me to acquire a 
hard copy of the Halls, whether they're in the public domain or not.
    AFAIK none of Hall's stories made it to the cover of the magazines
that they originally appeared in. So the chapbook cover [1] probably
comes from the interior artwork of "The Time Drug." 
    Who knows? The publisher may feel that their distinctive image crop,
which cuts off the bottom third of the original artwork, is also
copyrightable. So that's why the oh-so-carefully-acquired artwork shown 
at the top-right corner of my review uses the original, full-size 
artwork. Besides, the original artwork looks better.
    Allow me to ask the group yet another question. When a story's in
the public domain that includes its interior artwork too, right?

Note. 

1. https://www.amazon.ca/Man-Lived-Backwards-Other-Stories/dp/1976499410

✍

Thank you,

-- 
Don

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#492960

On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 6:50:24 AM UTC-6, D B Davis wrote:
> When a story's in
> the public domain that includes its interior artwork too, right?

Why? They don't necessarily have the same author.

The author of the artwork, of course, is the artist.

John Savard

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#492963

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 6:50:24 AM UTC-6, D B Davis wrote:
>> When a story's in
>> the public domain that includes its interior artwork too, right?
>
> Why? They don't necessarily have the same author.
>
> The author of the artwork, of course, is the artist.

Indeed. Regardless, it's my suspicion that my magazine publishers own 
the copyright on the articles that they paid me to write. When you "will
hack for food" it pays to ignore the fine print. Besides, most, if not 
all, of the stories in the public domain published on sites such as 
archive.org and gutenberg.org, include the artwork.  
  
✍

Thank you,

-- 
Don

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#492970

On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 8:52:55 AM UTC-6, D B Davis wrote:

> Indeed. Regardless, it's my suspicion that my magazine publishers own 
> the copyright on the articles that they paid me to write.

Usually, they do. It does depend on the author's contract terms; some of the 
more popular ones could obtain more favorable terms.

However, for copyright purposes, it doesn't matter who owns the copyright, it 
matters who the author is. Copyright is either the life of the author + X years, 
or Y years for *institutional* works, where there is no single author. A story 
doesn't become an institutional work simply because the entire copyright, rather 
than just first serial rights, was sold to a magazine.

John Savard

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