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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #460424 > unrolled thread
| Started by | mimus99 <mimus99@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-12-21 17:13 -0500 |
| Last post | 2016-12-24 09:48 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 173 — 32 participants |
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Re: Childhood's End mimus99 <mimus99@gmail.com> - 2016-12-21 17:13 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-22 06:20 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 14:41 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-12-22 17:53 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-12-25 01:06 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-12-25 17:49 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-25 07:40 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-22 06:57 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 16:11 +0000
Re: Childhood's End news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2016-12-22 19:11 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 11:57 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 12:17 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 21:21 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 14:04 -0700
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-12-25 07:44 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-22 21:52 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2016-12-25 09:30 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 20:48 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2017-01-04 18:08 +0000
Re: Childhood's End ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2017-01-04 18:50 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 10:29 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-12-22 14:34 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 15:02 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-22 23:28 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 16:29 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-23 01:24 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 20:11 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-12-23 01:05 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 22:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 10:09 -0600
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-23 16:50 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 09:07 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:20 -0700
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 20:40 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:24 -0600
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2017-01-02 12:38 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 12:08 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:22 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2016-12-23 19:17 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-23 12:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 09:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-23 09:45 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 04:32 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-12-25 01:13 -0700
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 15:03 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-25 08:02 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 20:51 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-22 11:31 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-23 12:29 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-23 14:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-23 15:40 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 09:09 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-24 07:33 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 11:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 08:56 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 17:01 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-24 10:11 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-26 11:20 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-26 14:06 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-26 16:00 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-26 22:36 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-27 16:08 +0200
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 12:06 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 13:05 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 18:32 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 19:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-27 21:21 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-28 08:28 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:15 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 12:32 +0200
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 13:23 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:02 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 21:08 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-27 13:17 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:00 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 21:39 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 08:14 +0100
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 00:56 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 08:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-12-29 04:41 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 08:16 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 13:12 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 10:25 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 17:40 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 14:45 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 21:30 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 13:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 12:54 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 18:11 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:16 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2017-01-01 09:56 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-28 21:33 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 00:42 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 09:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 12:48 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 13:14 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 08:20 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 07:31 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-12-29 05:49 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 14:47 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:55 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-12-29 12:13 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 20:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-30 14:55 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-12-31 10:12 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-01-01 19:31 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-02 10:22 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-03 21:59 -0600
Re: Childhood's End tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 21:33 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2017-01-03 22:13 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-04 00:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-04 02:02 -0700
Re: Childhood's End hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2017-01-04 02:39 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-04 11:29 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-06 20:42 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2017-01-07 00:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2017-01-07 10:57 -0800
Re: Childhood's End ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2017-01-07 19:08 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-07 15:46 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2017-01-07 05:53 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2017-01-07 20:43 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2017-01-01 12:17 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2017-01-02 13:20 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 09:49 -0800
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-29 20:41 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 12:26 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-30 12:50 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2017-01-01 09:21 -0600
Re: Childhood's End Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com> - 2017-01-01 12:31 -0700
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 16:11 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-28 18:34 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 23:40 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-29 07:41 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 12:27 -0700
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-29 12:55 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-30 15:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-30 14:35 -0700
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-31 13:24 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-24 13:08 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 18:52 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-24 14:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 21:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 17:02 -0800
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 20:20 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 16:50 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 23:00 +0000
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-25 17:00 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-25 19:06 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 22:37 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 02:37 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 21:58 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 20:07 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 06:18 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-12-24 21:53 -0800
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 16:52 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-25 23:04 +0000
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-25 19:01 -0500
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-25 23:15 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 04:22 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-25 22:03 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 07:01 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-12-26 11:39 -0800
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-26 22:09 +0000
Re: Childhood's End wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-27 23:03 -0500
Re: Childhood's End "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-12-24 14:43 -0500
Re: Childhood's End djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-12-24 21:36 +0000
Re: Childhood's End Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-12-24 14:34 -0800
Re: Childhood's End David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-24 15:43 -0700
Re: Childhood's End "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-12-24 20:18 -0500
Re: Childhood's End Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-12-24 09:48 +0000
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| From | mimus99 <mimus99@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-21 17:13 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: Childhood's End |
| Message-ID | <e5ycj6tujhp2$.kseoctlqepfi.dlg@40tude.net> |
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 15:55:56 -0600, Bob Robertson wrote: > On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:26:45 -0500, mimus99 <mimus99@gmail.com> wrote: > >>The mass-suicide or even genocide at the end of _ Childhood's End _ is >>not only gratuitous but injurious to the theme: >> >>Any real Overmind would cherish all living worlds, and most of all >>those of its unfortunately-limited ancestors. >> >>Indeed, the notion that the descendants of those ancestors would >>likewise be unfit for absorption into the Overmind contradicts the >>very evolutonary theory displayed. >> >>Just as we today believe our fellow species of animals will never >>evolve unto what we consider sapience, most of all ability to learn >>other speeches. >> >>Evolution continues (although not with the same pace everywhere and at >>all times). > > Perhaps I need to read Arthur C. Clarke's story again. They should > make a short film of another story, "And Then There Were None" or a > decent version of "The Marching Morons". Idiocracy was just stupid. > But, in the wrong way. I still rate _ Candy _ (1968) as the greatest SF flick of all time. -- And with Richard Burton's greatest role! (Ringo Starr's too.)
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 06:20 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <34646c74-b200-4ec2-83b6-1c64977b02ea@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #460424 |
On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 3:13:07 PM UTC-7, mimus99 wrote: > I still rate _ Candy _ (1968) as the greatest SF flick of all time. That wasn't science-fiction! It was a religious movie; she was clearly an avatar! Something like Jesus, or Buddha, or at least an angel. However, that just indicates the dangers of classifying movies - or novels - by their initial premise. Thus, one really *should* shelve the Pern novels, in a book store, under fantasy instead of science fiction, because of *the type of reader they will entertain*, instead of under science fiction on a strictly technical criterion. And, thus, Candy gets stuck in its usual classification of "sex comedy" rather than science fiction, fantasy, or religion. John Savard
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 14:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oILCt0.ny1@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #460485 |
In article <34646c74-b200-4ec2-83b6-1c64977b02ea@googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: >On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 3:13:07 PM UTC-7, mimus99 wrote: > >> I still rate _ Candy _ (1968) as the greatest SF flick of all time. > >That wasn't science-fiction! It was a religious movie; she was clearly an >avatar! Something like Jesus, or Buddha, or at least an angel. > >However, that just indicates the dangers of classifying movies - or novels - by >their initial premise. Thus, one really *should* shelve the Pern novels, in a >book store, under fantasy instead of science fiction, because of *the type of >reader they will entertain*, instead of under science fiction on a strictly >technical criterion. > >And, thus, Candy gets stuck in its usual classification of "sex comedy" rather >than science fiction, fantasy, or religion. Oh dear. What you are doing is presenting your personal system of classification, and either expecting or demanding that we all use it too. This cannot end well. Old-timers here will remember many, many discussions about where (also whether) to draw the boundary between fantasy and science fiction. Generally, most of us came to an agreement that there isn't a boundary, there's a transition zone, a sort of Rhenish fan within which which every reader draws his/her own boundary. (One person posted a link to a short essay in which someone presented the analogy, not of separate entities, not even of a spectrum, but of a three- (at least) dimensional landscape having peaks consisting of stories that were obviously examples of type 1 or type 2 or ... , and valleys consisting of stories that were just as clearly hybrids of two or more types. If I can find the link, I'll re-post it; it was an interesting viewpoint. And we once had a rather heated discussion between one guy who insisted that sword-and-sorcery was *not* a variety of fantasy, and the rest of us who felt it was. In the end, I said, > [T]here would appear to be a middle-of- > the-road definition of any term that is generally accepted by the > group, and definitions further out in one direction or another > that are held by a few, and this will generate discussion. The > discussion can stop short of "lambasting" if both sides try to > keep their language moderate and their tone polite, as, "Well, I > just don't consider x an example of Y," and "Well, you're going > to get a fair amount of disagreement then, because most of us > do." A corollary might say, "Fewer feathers will be ruffled if you say 'This is how I see it' instead of 'This is how it is.' -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 17:53 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20161222a@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #460486 |
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: > In article <34646c74-b200-4ec2-83b6-1c64977b02ea@googlegroups.com>, > Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: >>On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 3:13:07 PM UTC-7, mimus99 wrote: >> >>> I still rate _ Candy _ (1968) as the greatest SF flick of all time. >> >>That wasn't science-fiction! It was a religious movie; she was clearly an >>avatar! Something like Jesus, or Buddha, or at least an angel. >> >>However, that just indicates the dangers of classifying movies - or novels - by >>their initial premise. Thus, one really *should* shelve the Pern novels, in a >>book store, under fantasy instead of science fiction, because of *the type of >>reader they will entertain*, instead of under science fiction on a strictly >>technical criterion. >> >>And, thus, Candy gets stuck in its usual classification of "sex comedy" rather >>than science fiction, fantasy, or religion. > > Oh dear. > > What you are doing is presenting your personal system of > classification, and either expecting or demanding that we all use it > too. This cannot end well. > > Old-timers here will remember many, many discussions about where > (also whether) to draw the boundary between fantasy and science > fiction. Generally, most of us came to an agreement that there > isn't a boundary, there's a transition zone, a sort of Rhenish > fan within which which every reader draws his/her own boundary. > > (One person posted a link to a short essay in which someone > presented the analogy, not of separate entities, not even of a > spectrum, but of a three- (at least) dimensional landscape having > peaks consisting of stories that were obviously examples of type > 1 or type 2 or ... , and valleys consisting of stories that were > just as clearly hybrids of two or more types. If I can find the > link, I'll re-post it; it was an interesting viewpoint. > > And we once had a rather heated discussion between one guy who > insisted that sword-and-sorcery was *not* a variety of fantasy, > and the rest of us who felt it was. > > In the end, I said, > >> [T]here would appear to be a middle-of- >> the-road definition of any term that is generally accepted by the >> group, and definitions further out in one direction or another >> that are held by a few, and this will generate discussion. The >> discussion can stop short of "lambasting" if both sides try to >> keep their language moderate and their tone polite, as, "Well, I >> just don't consider x an example of Y," and "Well, you're going >> to get a fair amount of disagreement then, because most of us >> do." > > A corollary might say, "Fewer feathers will be ruffled if you say > 'This is how I see it' instead of 'This is how it is.' That's sage advice. This world needs a "peaks and valleys in the land of SF" illustration, complete with two Time Travel Tetons (peaks) and a valley betwixt them. The first Time Travel peak occurs in the Fantastic region. At it's summit sits a story such "Bob Dylan, Troy Johnson, and the Speed Queen" (Wilson), which restricts time travel to a one way trip to the past. The second Time Travel peak occurs in the Scientific region. At it's summit sits a story such as _The Peace War_ (Vinge), which restricts time travel to a one way journey to the future. ?Most? Time Travel stories sit in the valley betwixt the peaks because the travel goes both forwards and backwards in time. Representative stories found in the vast valley include: _The Time Machine_ (Wells), _The Time Traveler's Wife_ (Niffenegger), and _Forever War_ (Haldeman). Thank you, -- Don Kuenz KB7RPU What is this life if, full of care, We have not time to stand and stare? - Davies
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-25 01:06 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ec9cvnF9epgU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #460510 |
Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> wrote: >?Most? Time Travel stories sit in the valley betwixt the peaks because >the travel goes both forwards and backwards in time. Representative >stories found in the vast valley include: _The Time Machine_ (Wells), >_The Time Traveler's Wife_ (Niffenegger), and _Forever War_ (Haldeman). Forever War? That was just one-way into the future, with relativity rather than bobbles. -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-25 17:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20161225a@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #460783 |
Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote: > Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> wrote: > >>?Most? Time Travel stories sit in the valley betwixt the peaks because >>the travel goes both forwards and backwards in time. Representative >>stories found in the vast valley include: _The Time Machine_ (Wells), >>_The Time Traveler's Wife_ (Niffenegger), and _Forever War_ (Haldeman). > > Forever War? That was just one-way into the future, with relativity > rather than bobbles. In that case FW belongs on Mount Science and a reread is indicated. ;) Coming soon to a review near you. Thank you, -- Don Kuenz KB7RPU Poetry is not the proper antithesis to prose, but to science. - Coleridge
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-23 12:31 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <f85dba11-7989-4842-a307-198134d582cb@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #460486 |
On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 7:45:12 AM UTC-7, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > What you are doing is presenting your personal system of > classification, and either expecting or demanding that we all use it > too. This cannot end well. Well, I think the original poster, proposing that Candy was the greatest science-fiction movie, was being facetious, and in fact *most people* classify books and movies by their surface aspect, by their "feel", rather than by a technical criterion. But I'm not really trying to insist on anything... John Savard
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| From | David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-25 07:40 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <f4Cdndxo6rvWUcLFnZ2dnUU7-KmdnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #460486 |
On 2016-12-22, Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: > Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: [stuff] > Oh dear. > > What you are doing is presenting your personal system of > classification, and either expecting or demanding that we all use it > too. This cannot end well. ... it might be a treacle-well! Dave, homophonymically enantiomorphizing ps -- it's a word NOW. -- \/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK> gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 06:57 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <81d3ec16-3a75-45a1-bc83-5f4801960550@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #460485 |
On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 9:20:21 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote: > On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 3:13:07 PM UTC-7, mimus99 wrote: > > > I still rate _ Candy _ (1968) as the greatest SF flick of all time. > > That wasn't science-fiction! It was a religious movie; she was clearly an > avatar! Something like Jesus, or Buddha, or at least an angel. > > However, that just indicates the dangers of classifying movies - or novels - by > their initial premise. Thus, one really *should* shelve the Pern novels, in a > book store, under fantasy instead of science fiction, because of *the type of > reader they will entertain*, instead of under science fiction on a strictly > technical criterion. > That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F. An SF/F specialty shop might do so, but the national chain I worked for never did. Neither did the local independent chain I worked for, which dedicated much less floor space to SF/F. Edge cases are always hard to file. Putting them where the customer expects to see them has its merits. > And, thus, Candy gets stuck in its usual classification of > "sex comedy" rather than science fiction, fantasy, or religion. If you buy the "parody of Voltaire's CANDIDE" view, it could be filed with the classics, though that's probably a better bet for the book. Kevin R
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 16:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oILGzB.vs0@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #460487 |
In article <81d3ec16-3a75-45a1-bc83-5f4801960550@googlegroups.com>, Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote: >On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 9:20:21 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote: >> On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 3:13:07 PM UTC-7, mimus99 wrote: >> >> > I still rate _ Candy _ (1968) as the greatest SF flick of all time. >> >> That wasn't science-fiction! It was a religious movie; she was clearly an >> avatar! Something like Jesus, or Buddha, or at least an angel. >> >> However, that just indicates the dangers of classifying movies - or >novels - by >> their initial premise. Thus, one really *should* shelve the Pern novels, in a >> book store, under fantasy instead of science fiction, because of *the type of >> reader they will entertain*, instead of under science fiction on a strictly >> technical criterion. >> > >That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F. >An SF/F specialty shop might do so, but the national chain I >worked for never did. Neither did the local independent chain >I worked for, which dedicated much less floor space to SF/F. Uh-huh. If you put two related categories together, you get the guys who say "What is all this stupid fantasy doing in with the Science Fiction?" or even "What is all this soft-and-squishy SF doing in with the hardcore SF?" Or, less often the other way around. If, on the other hand, you separate them out, you get the guys who say "I found _The Antimatter Chronicles_ over *here*, but _The Unicorn Mantra_ by the same author is over *here*, why the hell?" and you say "Well, one is SF and one is fantasy," and they say, "Well, that's stupid! Why don't you shelve all of $Author's work *together*?" It all comes under the heading of "You can't please everybody, and sometimes you can't please anybody." > >Edge cases are always hard to file. Putting them where the >customer expects to see them has its merits. Yes, exceot that if you file to please one customer you'll piss off the next customer, see above. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 19:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1myo46o.1rc4az613katdcN%news{@bestley.co.uk> |
| In reply to | #460491 |
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: > In article <81d3ec16-3a75-45a1-bc83-5f4801960550@googlegroups.com>, > Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote: > >On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 9:20:21 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote: > >> On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 3:13:07 PM UTC-7, mimus99 wrote: > >> > > > >That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F. > >An SF/F specialty shop might do so, but the national chain I > >worked for never did. Neither did the local independent chain > >I worked for, which dedicated much less floor space to SF/F. > > Uh-huh. If you put two related categories together, you get the > guys who say "What is all this stupid fantasy doing in with the > Science Fiction?" or even "What is all this soft-and-squishy SF > doing in with the hardcore SF?" Or, less often the other way > around. > > If, on the other hand, you separate them out, you get the guys > who say "I found _The Antimatter Chronicles_ over *here*, but > _The Unicorn Mantra_ by the same author is over *here*, why the > hell?" and you say "Well, one is SF and one is fantasy," and they > say, "Well, that's stupid! Why don't you shelve all of $Author's > work *together*?" > There also they way Foyles' used to shelve things - by publisher then by SF so even odder splits occured. I am sure there are series that changed publisher. -- Mark
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| From | wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-23 11:57 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <o3jl1e$5d6$1@panix3.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #460491 |
In article <oILGzB.vs0@kithrup.com>,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
> Yes, except that if you file to please one customer you'll piss
> off the next customer, see above.
But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so they can all go to hell
-- not quite Ricky Nelson, "Garden Party," 1972
-- wds (actual line: "so ya got to please yourself")
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 12:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA6E67D1C81297taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #460487 |
Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in
news:81d3ec16-3a75-45a1-bc83-5f4801960550@googlegroups.com:
> That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F.
> An SF/F specialty shop might do so,
There's a bookstore in San Diego called Mysterious Galaxy, which
specializes in speculative fiction (of all varities) and mysteries.
It's been a while since I've been there, but IIRC, they separate the
mysteries from eveything else, but the rest of it is all by author
only. I really don't recall ever seeing a book store that separates
sf and fantasy. Most don't even separate horror/suspense from the
sf/fantasy.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 21:21 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oILvBr.1o9J@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #460517 |
In article <XnsA6E67D1C81297taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in >news:81d3ec16-3a75-45a1-bc83-5f4801960550@googlegroups.com: > >> That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F. >> An SF/F specialty shop might do so, > >There's a bookstore in San Diego called Mysterious Galaxy, which >specializes in speculative fiction (of all varities) and mysteries. >It's been a while since I've been there, but IIRC, they separate the >mysteries from eveything else, but the rest of it is all by author >only. I really don't recall ever seeing a book store that separates >sf and fantasy. Most don't even separate horror/suspense from the >sf/fantasy. I don't recall seeing one either, but there must have been some, because of all the complaints on the topic that we'd see once upon a time. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 14:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA6E68F1E91765taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #460518 |
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:oILvBr.1o9J@kithrup.com:
> In article <XnsA6E67D1C81297taustingmail@69.16.179.43>,
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in
>>news:81d3ec16-3a75-45a1-bc83-5f4801960550@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from
>>> F. An SF/F specialty shop might do so,
>>
>>There's a bookstore in San Diego called Mysterious Galaxy, which
>>specializes in speculative fiction (of all varities) and
>>mysteries. It's been a while since I've been there, but IIRC,
>>they separate the mysteries from eveything else, but the rest of
>>it is all by author only. I really don't recall ever seeing a
>>book store that separates sf and fantasy. Most don't even
>>separate horror/suspense from the sf/fantasy.
>
> I don't recall seeing one either, but there must have been some,
> because of all the complaints on the topic that we'd see once
> upon a time.
>
I don't dispute they existed, or even still exit, but if they do,
they're rare, and always have been.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-25 07:44 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <f4Cdnd9o6rvZUMLFnZ2dnUU7-KmdnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #460523 |
On 2016-12-22, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in >>>> That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from >>>> F. An SF/F specialty shop might do so, > > I don't dispute they existed, or even still exi[s]t, but if they do, > they're rare, and always have been. ... I -think- McKay's Books here in Knoxville is one of them, actually. But it's been a long time since I've been there - visits for me are both expensive and need to be scheduled when my pills are working so I can stand up and walk around for an hour. Dave, oh dear, santa's village has metastasized all over google maps to-day -- \/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK> gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-22 21:52 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <92a2c057-8387-47f8-8c0c-97861c127ddb@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #460517 |
On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 3:17:59 PM UTC-5, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: > Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in > news:81d3ec16-3a75-45a1-bc83-5f4801960550@googlegroups.com: > > > That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F. > > An SF/F specialty shop might do so, > > There's a bookstore in San Diego called Mysterious Galaxy, which > specializes in speculative fiction (of all varities) and mysteries. > It's been a while since I've been there, but IIRC, they separate the > mysteries from eveything else, but the rest of it is all by author > only. I really don't recall ever seeing a book store that separates > sf and fantasy. Most don't even separate horror/suspense from the > sf/fantasy. > > -- I used to enjoy shopping in Milwaukee's "Webster's Books" Mystery Annex, just around the corner from the Downer Ave main store on Webster Place. [The Downer space became a Harry W Schwartz location I later worked at, and is now home to Boswell Books.*] The Annex was about 2/3rd Mystery, and the rest SF/F novels. They did just the same kind of split. They'd bunch together media SF/F franchise books (Star Trek, Dragonlance.) As I was working at a B Dalton in the suburbs at the time, I could order and buy at employee discount just about any new trade book I saw anywhere, but I would pick up used titles and ones I suspected were OSI or OP, and they were a great source for Nero Wolfe paperbacks that hadn't been reprinted for a while. Kevin R * Boswell has an SF blog, I just discovered. http://boswellscifi.blogspot.com/
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| From | David Harmon <source@netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-25 09:30 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <Wr6dnS3nwvSxn_3FnZ2dnUU7-UnNnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #460487 |
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 06:57:36 -0800 (PST) in rec.arts.sf.written, Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote, >That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F. >An SF/F specialty shop might do so, but the national chain I >worked for never did. What bugs me is when an author writes both SF and nonfiction, and the store insists on shelving them together.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-12-25 20:48 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oIrDsH.1uKw@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #460808 |
In article <Wr6dnS3nwvSxn_3FnZ2dnUU7-UnNnZ2d@earthlink.com>, David Harmon <bad@example.invalid> wrote: >On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 06:57:36 -0800 (PST) in rec.arts.sf.written, Kevrob ><kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote, >>That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F. >>An SF/F specialty shop might do so, but the national chain I >>worked for never did. > >What bugs me is when an author writes both SF and nonfiction, and the >store insists on shelving them together. And if they shelved them apart, (a) others would complain about that, and (b) the staff would go nuts trying to decide which was which. As established in this thread. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-04 18:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ed4s08Fsf6pU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #460818 |
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 20:48:17 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <Wr6dnS3nwvSxn_3FnZ2dnUU7-UnNnZ2d@earthlink.com>, David > Harmon <bad@example.invalid> wrote: >>On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 06:57:36 -0800 (PST) in rec.arts.sf.written, Kevrob >><kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote, >>>That presupposes a bookstore that actually separates SF from F. >>>An SF/F specialty shop might do so, but the national chain I worked for >>>never did. >> >>What bugs me is when an author writes both SF and nonfiction, and the >>store insists on shelving them together. > > And if they shelved them apart, (a) others would complain about that, > and (b) the staff would go nuts trying to decide which was which. As > established in this thread. It isn't just bookstores. John D. McDonald was best known for his Travis McGee stories, which loosely fit the "detective" genre, but he also wrote a few works of science fiction. When I was an undergraduate, I worked for a couple of years as a library assistant. The head librarian insisted that McDonald's science fiction be shelved with the mysteries, as she could not accept the idea that he wrote anything else other than mystery/ detective fiction, even though one of the stories involved time travel.
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