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What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre?

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  What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) - 2016-09-15 02:36 +0000
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 21:59 -0500
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-17 18:06 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-14 21:07 -0600
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 20:34 -0700
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-09-15 04:04 +0000
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-15 04:21 +0000
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? TB <tsbrueni@dcn.davis.ca.us> - 2016-09-14 21:37 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-09-15 03:34 -0600
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 06:21 -0700
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-09-15 08:34 -0700
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-15 08:39 -0700
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-09-15 14:18 -0700
          Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-15 15:18 -0700
            Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2016-09-16 21:03 +0000
              Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-16 15:21 -0700
                Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2016-09-17 06:35 +0000
                  Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-09-17 08:34 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-09-15 11:06 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 16:46 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Dan Tilque <dtilque@frontier.com> - 2016-09-16 01:39 -0700
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-09-16 14:16 +0000
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-16 09:17 -0600
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-09-16 11:56 -0400
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2016-09-16 17:40 -0500
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-09-17 08:46 +0800
          Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-17 02:07 +0000
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Richard Todd <rmtodd@servalan.servalan.com> - 2016-09-17 13:26 -0500
          Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2016-09-17 14:57 -0500
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-09-16 11:31 -0700
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-09-16 15:51 -0400
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-09-16 17:51 -0700
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-09-17 00:12 -0400
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-09-17 08:49 -0700

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#451557

Garrett Wollman wrote:
> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> get its start?  

In "Magic, Inc." (Heinlein, 1940), there's a witchsmeller named Royce 
who has advanced degrees from a prestigious university (Oxford, I 
think). I can't remember if they're magic degrees or something else. But 
even if they are, it's a purely off-screen example.


-- 
Dan Tilque

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#451566

Dan Tilque <dtilque@frontier.com> wrote:
> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>> get its start?
>
> In "Magic, Inc." (Heinlein, 1940), there's a witchsmeller named Royce
> who has advanced degrees from a prestigious university (Oxford, I
> think). I can't remember if they're magic degrees or something else. But
> even if they are, it's a purely off-screen example.

This story is available online. [1] The online copy seems legitimate.

Royce is his African name. Dr Worthington is his professional name. He
also has a third name, which is not spoken (similar to the third name
of a cat in Elliot's _Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats_).

His holds an honorary doctor of laws degree from Cambridge University.
His field of study is anthropology.

Note.

1. http://www.unz.org/Pub/Unknown-1940sep-00009?View=PDF

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

    All that mankind has don, thought, gained or been: it is lying as in
magic preservation in the pages of books. - Carlyle

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#451569

On 9/16/2016 2:39 AM, Dan Tilque wrote:
> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>> get its start?
>
> In "Magic, Inc." (Heinlein, 1940), there's a witchsmeller named Royce
> who has advanced degrees from a prestigious university (Oxford, I
> think). I can't remember if they're magic degrees or something else. But
> even if they are, it's a purely off-screen example.
>
>

That wasn't a "wizard school" though.  It was just "school", since in 
the setting magic is fully integrated into society.

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#451571

On 9/16/16 11:17 AM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 9/16/2016 2:39 AM, Dan Tilque wrote:
>> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>>> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>>> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>>> get its start?
>>
>> In "Magic, Inc." (Heinlein, 1940), there's a witchsmeller named Royce
>> who has advanced degrees from a prestigious university (Oxford, I
>> think). I can't remember if they're magic degrees or something else. But
>> even if they are, it's a purely off-screen example.
>>
>>
>
> That wasn't a "wizard school" though.  It was just "school", since in
> the setting magic is fully integrated into society.


	Similarly, while Diane Duane's Young Wizards series has a Secret World 
of Magic that kids have to study about, there's no formal wizarding 
schools they learn it at; they find the So You Want To Be A Wizard book 
and if they pass its basic testing they become wizards and get to learn 
more magic.


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

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#451590

On 2016-09-16 03:39, Dan Tilque wrote:
> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>> get its start?
>
> In "Magic, Inc." (Heinlein, 1940), there's a witchsmeller named Royce
> who has advanced degrees from a prestigious university (Oxford, I
> think). I can't remember if they're magic degrees or something else. But
> even if they are, it's a purely off-screen example.

Which reminds me that Lord Darcy's assistant, Sean, goes to technical
conferences on magical research, which include presentation of papers
(including pre-prints) and academic rivalries.

To the best of my recollection, no schools were specifically mentioned,
but the existence of the conferences at least implies the existence of
schools where magic is not only taught, but researched.

(This doesn't meet the OP's request, because magic is totally integrated
into that society.)

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19

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#451593

On 17/09/2016 6:40 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 2016-09-16 03:39, Dan Tilque wrote:
>> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>>> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>>> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>>> get its start?
>>
>> In "Magic, Inc." (Heinlein, 1940), there's a witchsmeller named Royce
>> who has advanced degrees from a prestigious university (Oxford, I
>> think). I can't remember if they're magic degrees or something else. But
>> even if they are, it's a purely off-screen example.
>
> Which reminds me that Lord Darcy's assistant, Sean, goes to technical
> conferences on magical research, which include presentation of papers
> (including pre-prints) and academic rivalries.
>
> To the best of my recollection, no schools were specifically mentioned,
> but the existence of the conferences at least implies the existence of
> schools where magic is not only taught, but researched.

On the subject of schools, I wish Caroline Stevermer would finish her 
College Magics series. There were several loose threads that I wanted 
sorting out.
-- 
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

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#451596

In article <e43i3gFie4cU1@mid.individual.net>,
Robert Bannister  <robban@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>On 17/09/2016 6:40 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 2016-09-16 03:39, Dan Tilque wrote:
>>> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>>> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>>>> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>>>> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>>>> get its start?
>>>
>>> In "Magic, Inc." (Heinlein, 1940), there's a witchsmeller named Royce
>>> who has advanced degrees from a prestigious university (Oxford, I
>>> think). I can't remember if they're magic degrees or something else. But
>>> even if they are, it's a purely off-screen example.
>>
>> Which reminds me that Lord Darcy's assistant, Sean, goes to technical
>> conferences on magical research, which include presentation of papers
>> (including pre-prints) and academic rivalries.
>>
>> To the best of my recollection, no schools were specifically mentioned,
>> but the existence of the conferences at least implies the existence of
>> schools where magic is not only taught, but researched.
>
>On the subject of schools, I wish Caroline Stevermer would finish her 
>College Magics series. There were several loose threads that I wanted 
>sorting out.

Oh, second that wish!  We haven't seen the Wardens of the South
or the East yet, and while I assume the Eastern Warden is in
China, whereinhell can the Southern one be?  An Aboriginal
Australian maybe?  How long has the terrestrial sphere been divided
into four quadrants?  

(She would have to do a great deal of research to make it all
work.  Maybe that's why we haven't seen the others yet.)

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#451629

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:

> Which reminds me that Lord Darcy's assistant, Sean, goes to technical
> conferences on magical research, which include presentation of papers
> (including pre-prints) and academic rivalries.
>
> To the best of my recollection, no schools were specifically mentioned,
> but the existence of the conferences at least implies the existence of
> schools where magic is not only taught, but researched.

IIRC, there was at least one mention of a university where magic is
taught.  From "The Ipswitch Phial":

   "Your pardon, Mission Commander, but just how certain are you that the       
   man you saw on the mule this morning was actually Master Sean?"              

   "Quite certain. I heard him lecture many times at the University at          
   Buda-Pest when I was an undergraduate there in 'sixty-eight,                 
   'sixty-nine, and 'seventy. He was taking his Th.D. in theoretics and         
   analog math. His King paid for it from the Privy Purse, but he               
   supplemented his income by giving undergrad lectures."                       
                                                                                
   "Would he recognize you?"                                                    
                                                                                
   "Highly unlikely. Who pays any attention to undergraduate students at a      
   large university?"                                                           
...
   Master Sean suddenly snapped his fingers. "That's where I heard the          
   name before! Olga Polovski! Six years ago, she was an undergraduate at       
   the University in Buda-Pest. A good student, with high-grade Talent.

And from "The Napoli Express":

   "Sean!" the Praefect grabbed him by both shoulders. "It's been a long        
   time! You should write more often." He turned to Lord Darcy. "Pardon         
   me, Padre, but I haven't seen my friend here since we took a course          
   together at the University of Milano, five years ago. 'The                   
   Admissibility of Certain Magically Derived Evidence in Criminal              
   Jurisprudence' it was."

although that's more of a class on magic as it relates to forensic
science practice in the Darcyverse.

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#451635

On 2016-09-17 13:26, Richard Todd wrote:
> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Which reminds me that Lord Darcy's assistant, Sean, goes to technical
>> conferences on magical research, which include presentation of papers
>> (including pre-prints) and academic rivalries.
>>
>> To the best of my recollection, no schools were specifically mentioned,
>> but the existence of the conferences at least implies the existence of
>> schools where magic is not only taught, but researched.
>
> IIRC, there was at least one mention of a university where magic is
> taught.  From "The Ipswitch Phial":

[snip one mention]

> And from "The Napoli Express":

[snip mention of a different school]

> although that's more of a class on magic as it relates to forensic
> science practice in the Darcyverse.

Thanks for looking that up and typing it in. I feel vindicated (even
though nobody challenged me).

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk like Mr. Ed
by rubbing peanut butter on his gums.

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#451575

Not exactly an early book, but no one's mentioned "The Little Broomstick" (1971), by Mary Stewart, which features Endor College.

While some adult critics may argue that it would be comparing apples and oranges to compare that book to any book in the Harry Potter series, children, unfortunately, are not likely to agree. That is, once they've read any HP book, they're likely to frown on "The Little Broomstick." Why? Because it's too easy for children to conclude that Stewart's "message" was: "Magic is evil, or at least not virtuous enough to coexist with." 

(For example - SPOILER - while the fly-by-night flower is "good," it still has to be forfeited once evil is conquered.) 

All the more reason for kids to hear or read Stewart's story first, if you can possibly arrange it, so they can appreciate her very haunting, low-key writing style. 

Besides, even though the fictional worlds of the two authors ARE apples and oranges, that doesn't change the fact that any educated adult ought to be able to realize that the HP books are in fact pulp fiction from the first book onwards (and especially books 4-7), while Stewart's writing style, with or without the characters or plot, is clearly superior.

Example:

The end of Chapter V of "The Little Broomstick":

And now they were at the foot of the wide flight of steps that led up
to the front door. There were (stone) griffins here, too. They sat on
their stone pedestals, one at each side of the steps. On the right-hand
pedestal Mary saw yet another notice. It said, simply:

                                           TRESPASSERS
                                               WILL BE
                                          TRANSFORMED

Mary stared, stopped dead, then turned quickly to look behind her.

Mr. Flanagan was nowhere to be seen. And as he went back to his
stableyard, he had shut the gate behind him. The archway was barred by
a solid slab of studded oak.

Then the front door of the College opened, and a tall woman in black
came out on to the head of the steps. She beckoned to Mary.

Mary looked at Tib (the cat). Tib looked back with no expression whatever in his
green, green eyes.

The woman beckoned again.

Mary walked up the steps towards her.

(end)

BTW, Stewart's 100th anniversary is tomorrow.

Lenona.   

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#451579

On 9/16/16 2:31 PM, lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:
> Not exactly an early book, but no one's mentioned "The Little Broomstick" (1971), by Mary Stewart,


	And you just reminded me of The Witch Family, by Eleanor Estes (1960), 
in which Little Witch has to attend Witch School.


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

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#451594

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 11:31:07 AM UTC-7, leno...@yahoo.com 
wrote:

[Mary Stewart's <The Little Broomstick>, 1971, vs the more recent 
Harry Potter books]

> Besides, even though the fictional worlds of the two authors ARE 
> apples and oranges, that doesn't change the fact that any educated 
> adult ought to be able to realize that the HP books are in fact pulp 
> fiction from the first book onwards (and especially books 4-7), while 
> Stewart's writing style, with or without the characters or plot, is 
> clearly superior.

Um.  I don't know how long you've been here, so maybe this is 
condescending of me, but you *do* realise, don't you, that the 
tradition of science fiction most often discussed here originated, 
literally, as a genre of pulp fiction?  (Major sf magazines were 
printed on pulp paper within the memory of some people posting here; 
and in fantasy, <Weird Tales> and <Beyond> were too.)  Now it seems 
you mean something else by "pulp fiction", but it also seems you mean 
an insult.  And in my experience, the sorts of people who congregate 
here usually react badly to that sort of use of the phrase.

More substantively, it isn't obvious to me that the Harry Potter books 
are without artistic merit, though you're correct that that isn't 
likely to be primarily in their style, as opposed to their characters 
and plot.  (Both of which kids tend to value more than adults, but 
many of us adults *also* value them strongly.  Again to local custom, 
one reasonably well known meme related to this originated right here 
in this newsgroup; the coiner of the "Eight Deadly Words" - "I don't 
care what happens to these people" - as a judgement precisely on the 
relative importance of plot vs. characters, has posted in this thread.)

I'm not sure I'll ever be able to perceive that merit - God knows lots 
of people older than me have never seen what I can see in the first 
Thomas Covenant trilogy (though, to be fair, this is also true of lots 
of people my age and younger!), and it's well established that respect 
for Tolkien was never as high among people adult when <The Lord of the 
Rings> appeared as it has been among all subsequent generations.  I'm 
not saying Rowling is artistically equal to Donaldson, let alone to 
Tolkien, but I'm pretty sure whatever the Harry Potter books *have*, 
artistically, is largely closed to many of those of us born too soon; 
that that hypothetical merit is as *generational* as Donaldson's or 
Tolkien's.

Also, bluntly, meseems style is easy.  I know there are limits to mine, 
but there are much more constricting limits to my abilities with plot 
and characters.  If you want to believe that style is the main 
criterion by which fiction should be evaluated, go ahead, but you 
aren't going to convince me.

Joe Bernstein

-- 
Joe Bernstein, writer and tax preparer                 <joe@sfbooks.com>

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#451602

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT), Joe Bernstein
<joe@sfbooks.com> wrote
in<news:e6ca73e5-d9e2-4870-9023-038f1e0c480d@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 11:31:07 AM UTC-7,
> leno...@yahoo.com wrote:

> [Mary Stewart's <The Little Broomstick>, 1971, vs the
> more recent Harry Potter books]

>> Besides, even though the fictional worlds of the two
>> authors ARE apples and oranges, that doesn't change the
>> fact that any educated adult ought to be able to
>> realize that the HP books are in fact pulp fiction from
>> the first book onwards (and especially books 4-7),
>> while Stewart's writing style, with or without the
>> characters or plot, is clearly superior.
> 
> Um.  I don't know how long you've been here, 

At least since early 2002.

> so maybe this is condescending of me, but you *do*
> realise, don't you, that the tradition of science
> fiction most often discussed here originated, literally,
> as a genre of pulp fiction?  

So what?  That has nothing to do with Lenona’s point.

> (Major sf magazines were printed on pulp paper within the
> memory of some people posting here; and in fantasy,
> <Weird Tales> and <Beyond> were too.)  Now it seems you
> mean something else by "pulp fiction", but it also seems
> you mean an insult. And in my experience, the sorts of
> people who congregate here usually react badly to that
> sort of use of the phrase.

I’m certainly not bothered: the nature of the distinction
being drawn is clear enough.  I have no opinion either way,
since I’ve read neither HP nor this particular Stewart, but
I don’t find it at all offensive for someone to suggest
that Stewart was a better writer than Rowling

[...]

Brian
-- 
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties.  The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

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#451623

On Friday, 16 September 2016 19:31:07 UTC+1, leno...@yahoo.com  wrote:
> Not exactly an early book, but no one's mentioned "The Little Broomstick" (1971), by Mary Stewart, which features Endor College.
> 
> While some adult critics may argue that it would be comparing apples and oranges to compare that book to any book in the Harry Potter series, children, unfortunately, are not likely to agree. That is, once they've read any HP book, they're likely to frown on "The Little Broomstick." Why? Because it's too easy for children to conclude that Stewart's "message" was: "Magic is evil, or at least not virtuous enough to coexist with." 

Pre Star Wars, the name of "Endor College" has a specific
negative association with witchcraft.  Well - 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_of_Endor> 
uses the words "portrayed sympathetically".  
Not exactly how I remember that, but there it is.

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