Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing

From	Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	linux.kernel
Subject	Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing
Date	2015-10-22 21:00 +0200
Message-ID	<qmtfJ-2HW-45@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On 10/22/2015 7:44 AM, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> <oops, sent too early...>
> 
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 11:05:11AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
>> But that's moot currently because Greg believes that the time spent
>> probing devices at boot time could be reduced enough so that the order
>> in which devices are probed becomes irrelevant. IME that would have to
>> be under 200ms so that the user doesn't notice and that's unicorn-far
>> from any bootlog I have ever seen.
> 
> But as no one has actually produced a bootlog, how do you know that?
> Where exactly is your time being spent?  What driver is causing long
> delays?  Why is the long-delay-drivers not being done in their own
> thread?  And most importantly, why are you ignoring the work that people
> did back in 2008 to solve the issue on other hardware platforms?
> 
>> Given that downstreams are already carrying as many hacks as they
>> could think of to speed total boot up, I think this is effectively
>> telling them to go away.
> 
> No I'm not, I'm asking for real data, not hand-wavy-this-is-going-to
> solve-the-random-issue-i'm-having type patch by putting random calls in
> semi-random subsystems all over the kernel.
> 
> And when I ask for real data, you respond with the fact that you aren't
> trying to speed up boot time here at all, so what am I supposed to think

I also had the understanding that this patch series was about improving
boot time.  But I was kindly corrected that the behavior change was
getting the panel displaying stuff at an earlier point in the boot sequence,
_not_ completing the entire boot faster. 

The claim for the current series, in patch 0 in v7 is:

   With this series I get the kernel to output to the panel in 0.5s,
   instead of 2.8s.

Just to get side-tracked, one other approach at ordering to reduce
deferrals reported a modest boot time reduction for four boards and a
very slight boot time increase for one other board.) The report of boot
times with that approach was in:

  http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.drivers.devicetree/133010

from Alexander Holler.

I have not searched further to see if there is more data of boot time
reductions from any of the other attempts to change driver binding
order to move dependencies before use of a resource.  But whether
there is a performance improvement or not, there continues to be
a stream of developers creatively impacting the binding order for
their specific driver(s) or board.  So it seems that maybe there
is an underlying problem, or we don't have adequate documentation
explaining how to avoid a need to order bindings, or the
documentation exists and is not being read.

I have been defaulting to the position that has been asserted by
the device tree maintainters, that probe deferrals work just fine
for at least the majority of cases (and is the message I have been
sharing in my conference presentations about device tree).  But I
suspect that there is at least a small minority of cases that are not
well served by probe deferral.  (Not to be read as an endorsement of
this specific patch series, just a generic observation.)

-Frank

> other than that you don't care enough to do the real work and are trying
> to hack the driver core up instead.
> 
>> Sorry for the rant,
> 
> No apologies needed, it's cathartic at times :)
> 
> thanks,
> 
> greg k-h
> .
> 

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Thread

Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-18 21:40 +0200
  Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> - 2015-10-18 21:40 +0200
    Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-18 22:00 +0200
      Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> - 2015-10-19 11:50 +0200
        Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-19 12:00 +0200
        Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-19 13:10 +0200
        Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Rob Herring <robh+dt@kernel.org> - 2015-10-19 14:40 +0200
          Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> - 2015-10-19 14:50 +0200
            Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-19 17:00 +0200
              Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> - 2015-10-19 17:40 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-19 17:50 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Uwe Kleine-König   <u.kleine-koenig@pengutronix.de> - 2015-10-19 20:30 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-19 20:50 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Alexandre Courbot <gnurou@gmail.com> - 2015-10-20 01:50 +0200
                Re: gpiod API considerations [Was: [GIT PULL] On-demand device  probing] Uwe Kleine-König   <u.kleine-koenig@pengutronix.de> - 2015-10-20 09:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> - 2015-10-20 13:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Rob Herring <robh+dt@kernel.org> - 2015-10-19 18:00 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net> - 2015-10-19 23:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Rob Herring <robh@kernel.org> - 2015-10-20 01:00 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net> - 2015-10-20 09:30 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Rob Herring <robh@kernel.org> - 2015-10-20 16:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2015-10-20 16:50 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-20 17:40 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2015-10-20 18:10 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@collabora.com> - 2015-10-20 18:30 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2015-10-20 19:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-20 21:40 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net> - 2015-10-21 01:10 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Jean-Francois Moine <moinejf@free.fr> - 2015-10-21 08:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net> - 2015-10-22 02:30 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@collabora.com> - 2015-10-22 11:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net> - 2015-10-27 05:40 +0100
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net> - 2015-10-21 01:10 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> - 2015-10-21 11:00 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net> - 2015-10-22 01:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-19 18:10 +0200
      Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@collabora.com> - 2015-10-19 14:40 +0200
        Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-19 15:20 +0200
          Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@collabora.com> - 2015-10-19 16:20 +0200
            Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-19 16:40 +0200
              Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@collabora.com> - 2015-10-19 17:10 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-19 17:40 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> - 2015-10-19 18:30 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-19 18:50 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe (was: [GIT  PULL] On-demand device probing) Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-20 17:50 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 06:00 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-21 10:20 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 17:40 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Grygorii Strashko <grygorii.strashko@ti.com> - 2015-10-21 19:00 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-21 19:30 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Grygorii Strashko <grygorii.strashko@ti.com> - 2015-10-21 20:20 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-21 20:30 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Grygorii Strashko <grygorii.strashko@ti.com> - 2015-10-22 17:20 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 20:10 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Grygorii Strashko <grygorii.strashko@ti.com> - 2015-10-21 20:40 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-21 22:40 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 02:10 +0200
                Re: Alternative approach to solve the deferred probe (was: [GIT  PULL] On-demand device probing) Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-23 01:40 +0200
        Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 18:10 +0200
          Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-21 18:30 +0200
            Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 20:30 +0200
              Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-21 23:10 +0200
              Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Rob Herring <robh+dt@kernel.org> - 2015-10-21 23:20 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 00:00 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@collabora.com> - 2015-10-22 11:10 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> - 2015-10-22 16:40 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> - 2015-10-22 16:50 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@arm.linux.org.uk> - 2015-10-22 17:10 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-23 01:40 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Frank Rowand <frowand.list@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 21:00 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> - 2015-10-22 21:30 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Tim Bird <tim.bird@sonymobile.com> - 2015-10-23 17:50 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Rob Herring <robh+dt@kernel.org> - 2015-10-23 18:40 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net> - 2015-10-24 15:50 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-25 00:10 +0200
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@kernel.org> - 2015-10-25 15:00 +0100
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org> - 2015-10-26 02:20 +0100
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Michael Turquette <mturquette@baylibre.com> - 2015-10-26 12:00 +0100
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@collabora.com> - 2015-10-26 14:00 +0100
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@kernel.org> - 2015-10-27 00:40 +0100
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing "Andrew F. Davis" <afd@ti.com> - 2015-10-25 20:50 +0100
                Re: [GIT PULL] On-demand device probing Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> - 2015-10-24 20:00 +0200

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