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Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster?

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  Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian  after Buster? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-06-18 23:40 +0200
    Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster? Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-06-20 00:40 +0200
    Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster Lazar Tadić <lazar.tadic34@gmail.com> - 2019-06-20 00:50 +0200
      Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-06-20 01:10 +0200
        Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-06-20 08:30 +0200
          Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2019-06-21 12:10 +0200
            Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-06-21 13:50 +0200
            Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster Dekks Herton <dekkzz78@gmail.com> - 2019-06-21 15:20 +0200
            Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2019-06-21 15:50 +0200
              Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-06-21 16:10 +0200
              Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2019-06-21 16:20 +0200
                Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with  Debian after Buster Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2019-06-21 16:40 +0200

#210074 — Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster?

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I was just reading the announcement that the Ubuntu folks are dropping
32-bit x86 support completely. Although Ubuntu is a downstream
derivative of Debian, Debian and Ubuntu have a lot of overlap in terms
of maintainers and developers, and certain developments between the two
projects tend to overlap.

https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/i386-architecture-will-be-dropped-starting-with-eoan-ubuntu-19-10/11263/2

As someone who uses a good chunk of 32-bit x86 software on a 64-bit
machine (with no hopes of my software ever being ported to 64-bit), this
has me worried about the future viability of running my software. For
now, the solution is simple: stick with Debian, use an older version of
Ubuntu, or use a different Linux-based distro altogether.

I won't be surprised when Debian stops shipping ISOs for 32-bit x86
support, as the demand for this architecture is rapidly declining with
each Debian release. However, there is still considerable demand for
32-bit legacy software.

Debian Buster will definitely ship with multilib support to allow using
32-bit x86 applications on 64-bit amd64 systems, without the need to
jump through virtualization hoops or running snap packages (like the
Ubuntu folks are recommending). But I'm worried that future versions of
Debian (ie: Bullseye and Bookworm) are going to be the final nail in the
coffin for 32-bit software support.

Am I worried over nothing?

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#210116 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster?

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On 19/06/19 9:32 AM, Matthew Crews wrote:
> I won't be surprised when Debian stops shipping ISOs for 32-bit x86
> support, as the demand for this architecture is rapidly declining with
> each Debian release.

I hope it doesn't happen too soon. I have multiple 32-bit machines which
are still perfectly serviceable and useful.

Richard

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#210117 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

Don't worry Mathew, 32-bit arch is currently 2nd most popular arch on
Debian. There's no way it will be dropped even after Buster.

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#210118 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

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On 6/19/19 3:30 PM, Lazar Tadić wrote:
> Don't worry Mathew, 32-bit arch is currently 2nd most popular arch on
> Debian. There's no way it will be dropped even after Buster.
> 

Curious, where can one look up these numbers?

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#210126 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

	Hi.

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 01:03:50AM +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
> On 6/19/19 3:30 PM, Lazar Tadić wrote:
> > Don't worry Mathew, 32-bit arch is currently 2nd most popular arch on
> > Debian. There's no way it will be dropped even after Buster.
> 
> Curious, where can one look up these numbers?

https://popcon.debian.org/

First graph from the top.

Reco

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#210183 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

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Hi,

On 20/6/19 4:28 pm, Reco wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 01:03:50AM +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
>> On 6/19/19 3:30 PM, Lazar Tadić wrote:
>>> Don't worry Mathew, 32-bit arch is currently 2nd most popular
>>> arch on Debian. There's no way it will be dropped even after
>>> Buster.

I would think this would be due to misunderstanding by new users more
than anything else.

Most, if not all 32 bit arch machines are probably going to consume
far more energy than newer machines of far greater capability.  That
is, it probably doesn't make any financial sense to continue running
an old 32 bit machine.

And if it is user misunderstanding, then many of those probably have
suitable 64 bit machines anyway.

Cheers
A.
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#210188 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

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Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> I would think this would be due to misunderstanding by new users more
> than anything else.

Right, I'm not referring to running Debian on 32-bit machines. I'm
referring to being able to:

# dpkg --add-architecture i386

in an amd64 machine, and

# apt install <software>:i386

in an amd64 environment, in order to maintain i386 compatibility in an
amd64 environment.

For now it seems that Debian will be just fine for this purpose.

Cheers.

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#210191 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> writes:

> Hi,
>
> On 20/6/19 4:28 pm, Reco wrote:
>> Hi.
>> 
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 01:03:50AM +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
>>> On 6/19/19 3:30 PM, Lazar Tadić wrote:
>>>> Don't worry Mathew, 32-bit arch is currently 2nd most popular
>>>> arch on Debian. There's no way it will be dropped even after
>>>> Buster.
>
> I would think this would be due to misunderstanding by new users more
> than anything else.
>
> Most, if not all 32 bit arch machines are probably going to consume
> far more energy than newer machines of far greater capability.  That
> is, it probably doesn't make any financial sense to continue running
> an old 32 bit machine.
>
> And if it is user misunderstanding, then many of those probably have
> suitable 64 bit machines anyway.
>
> Cheers
> A.
>

In the corp world that's very true Andrew re: energy but you under
estimate the amount of 32bit machines still running under desks, connected to
devices in workshops, in homes doing stuff out of sight. 

-- 
Regards.........
 
PGP Fingerprint: 3DF8 311C 4740 B5BC 3867  72DF 1050 452F 9BCE BA00

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#210192 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

Andrew McGlashan composed on 2019-06-21 20:03 (UTC+1000):

> Most, if not all 32 bit arch machines are probably going to consume
> far more energy than newer machines of far greater capability.  That
> is, it probably doesn't make any financial sense to continue running
> an old 32 bit machine. 

Retiring a working old PC requires an investment of not just money, but also time,
and possibly retraining. The old PC is a sunk cost, and its user(s) may have no
need for greater capability. Periodic energy cost is probably trivial by
comparison, so even if a new PC uses a third or less energy than the old, the
investment could take more than a PC's lifetime to recover, assuming the required
funding of the cost was even available to make. e.g. $6.00/month for energy to
continue vs. $2.00 after investment nets only $48/year. A cheap replacement, $500,
would take more than 10 years to be paid for at that rate, not counting anything
for the time value of the money invested, which could easily more than double the
required time to recover. IOW, it doesn't make any sense on a purely financial
basis to replace a working PC.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#210193 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

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On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 09:44:37AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> Andrew McGlashan composed on 2019-06-21 20:03 (UTC+1000):
> 
> > Most, if not all 32 bit arch machines are probably going to consume
> > far more energy than newer machines of far greater capability.  That
> > is, it probably doesn't make any financial sense to continue running
> > an old 32 bit machine. 
> 
> Retiring a working old PC requires an investment of not just money, but also time,
> and possibly retraining. The old PC is a sunk cost, and its user(s) may have no
> need for greater capability [...]

Besides, there's sometimes unique hardware involved, which makes things more...
"interesting". But yeah, at some point, an old archived Debian version will
be the sanest choice.

Cheers
-- t

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#210194 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

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On 21/6/19 11:44 pm, Felix Miata wrote:
> Andrew McGlashan composed on 2019-06-21 20:03 (UTC+1000):
> 
>> Most, if not all 32 bit arch machines are probably going to
>> consume far more energy than newer machines of far greater
>> capability.  That is, it probably doesn't make any financial
>> sense to continue running an old 32 bit machine.
> 
> Retiring a working old PC requires an investment of not just money,
> but also time, and possibly retraining. The old PC is a sunk cost,
> and its user(s) may have no need for greater capability. Periodic
> energy cost is probably trivial by comparison, so even if a new PC
> uses a third or less energy than the old, the investment could take
> more than a PC's lifetime to recover, assuming the required funding
> of the cost was even available to make. e.g. $6.00/month for energy
> to continue vs. $2.00 after investment nets only $48/year. A cheap
> replacement, $500, would take more than 10 years to be paid for at
> that rate, not counting anything for the time value of the money
> invested, which could easily more than double the required time to
> recover. IOW, it doesn't make any sense on a purely financial basis
> to replace a working PC.

Sure, it doesn't make sense for every case, but there are often other
factors; in time one of those factors will be lack of support for
i386, even if it isn't Debian itself.

And there are other reasons, power usage is but one; sometimes just
the risk of an older box dying and having no replacement is a more
important consideration.

Cheers
A.
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#210195 — Re: Does 32-bit x86 support (aka [multilib] ) have a future with Debian after Buster

Andrew McGlashan composed on 2019-06-22 00:18 (UTC+1000):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> Andrew McGlashan composed on 2019-06-21 20:03 (UTC+1000):

>>> ...That is, it probably doesn't make any financial
>>> sense to continue running an old 32 bit machine.
...
>> IOW, it doesn't make any sense on a purely financial basis
>> to replace a working PC.

> Sure, it doesn't make sense for every case, but there are often other
> factors; in time one of those factors will be lack of support for
> i386, even if it isn't Debian itself.

> And there are other reasons, power usage is but one; sometimes just
> the risk of an older box dying and having no replacement is a more
> important consideration.

Like I wrote, on a purely financial basis, the assertion you were making, to which
I was responding.

There are other reasons to keep an old PC, such as irreplaceable CRC controllers
or other proprietary hardware that doesn't work with new hardware, or lack of LPT
port availability on newer, lots of reasons, cutting in both directions.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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