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Groups > linux.debian.user > #206560 > unrolled thread
| Started by | mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2019-03-25 05:40 +0100 |
| Last post | 2019-03-30 12:20 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 118 — 29 participants |
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text editors mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-03-25 05:40 +0100
Re: text editors Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-25 06:00 +0100
Re: text editors Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2019-03-25 06:10 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-25 06:40 +0100
Re: text editors mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-03-25 09:00 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-25 11:20 +0100
Re: text editors mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-03-25 11:40 +0100
Re: text editors Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2019-03-25 07:00 +0100
Re: text editors john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2019-03-25 07:40 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-25 12:10 +0100
Re: text editors rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-03-25 12:50 +0100
Re: text editors rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-03-25 13:10 +0100
Re: text editors Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2019-03-25 21:20 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-25 22:10 +0100
Re: text editors Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-03-25 13:30 +0100
Re: text editors mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-03-26 08:40 +0100
Re: text editors Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-03-26 16:50 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-26 18:00 +0100
Re: text editors Håkon Alstadheim <hakon@alstadheim.priv.no> - 2019-03-26 21:20 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-27 03:30 +0100
Re: text editors rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-03-27 13:10 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-27 14:30 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-27 15:10 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-27 15:40 +0100
Re: text editors rlharris@oplink.net - 2019-03-27 17:30 +0100
Re: text editors rlharris@oplink.net - 2019-03-28 18:40 +0100
keyboard macros (was: Re: text editors) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-03-28 19:00 +0100
Re: keyboard macros John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-28 19:30 +0100
Re: keyboard macros Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 20:00 +0100
Re: keyboard macros rlharris@oplink.net - 2019-03-28 19:50 +0100
Re: keyboard macros John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-28 20:10 +0100
xfce launchers rlharris@oplink.net - 2019-04-03 18:40 +0200
Re: xfce launchers Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu> - 2019-04-04 07:20 +0200
Re: xfce launchers rlharris@oplink.net - 2019-04-04 07:40 +0200
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-29 06:20 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 03:40 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-28 03:50 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 08:00 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-28 09:20 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-28 10:40 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 21:10 +0100
Emacs without knowing any Lisp (was: text editors) Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2019-03-29 02:50 +0100
Re: Emacs without knowing any Lisp (was: text editors) Bill Wood <william.wood3@comcast.net> - 2019-03-29 06:50 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-28 14:10 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-28 14:50 +0100
Re: text editors David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-03-28 14:30 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-28 15:20 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-28 15:30 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 21:30 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 00:40 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-29 06:30 +0100
Re: text editors Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-03-29 09:00 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-29 10:20 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-29 12:40 +0100
Re: text editors Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-03-29 18:00 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 19:50 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-29 20:10 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-30 00:10 +0100
Re: text editors Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-03-30 00:30 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-30 01:20 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-30 01:40 +0100
Re: text editors David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-03-30 04:30 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-30 09:30 +0100
What does all this mean? was Re: text editors David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-03-30 17:20 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-30 05:30 +0100
Re: text editors Bob Bernstein <poobah@ruptured-duck.com> - 2019-03-30 02:20 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-30 02:30 +0100
Re: text editors David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-03-30 01:50 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-04-01 12:10 +0200
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-01 12:10 +0200
Re: text editors Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-01 12:50 +0200
Re: text editors David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-01 16:40 +0200
Re: text editors Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-04-01 16:00 +0200
Re: text editors "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2019-04-01 16:30 +0200
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-04-01 16:50 +0200
Re: text editors Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-01 17:40 +0200
Re: text editors Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-04-01 18:20 +0200
Re: text editors "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2019-04-01 19:50 +0200
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-04-01 18:40 +0200
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-04-01 16:50 +0200
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-01 17:10 +0200
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 11:00 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-29 13:00 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 21:20 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 10:50 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-29 11:50 +0100
Re: text editors David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-03-28 17:20 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-28 17:50 +0100
Re: text editors Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-03-28 18:20 +0100
Re: text editors Dekks Herton <dekkzz78@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 10:40 +0100
Re: text editors David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-03-29 20:30 +0100
Re: text editors Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2019-03-30 03:20 +0100
Re: text editors David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-01 18:40 +0200
Re: text editors Dekks Herton <dekkzz78@gmail.com> - 2019-03-29 10:40 +0100
Re: text editors Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-03-27 20:40 +0100
Re: text editors Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-03-28 01:30 +0100
Re: text editors Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-03-27 12:10 +0100
Re: text editors Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-03-28 07:30 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-28 11:40 +0100
Re: text editors "tomas@tuxteam.de" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-28 12:30 +0100
Re: text editors "tomas@tuxteam.de" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-28 13:00 +0100
Re: text editors Pierre Fourès <pierre.foures@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 17:50 +0100
Re: text editors deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 21:40 +0100
Re: text editors mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-03-27 10:00 +0100
Re: text editors Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-03-27 11:20 +0100
Re: text editors Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-03-27 16:50 +0100
Understanding (some) Lisp (was: Re: text editors) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-03-28 17:10 +0100
Re: Understanding (some) Lisp Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-03-28 17:20 +0100
Re: text editors Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2019-03-26 03:30 +0100
Re: text editors Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-03-26 06:30 +0100
Re: text editors Tony Rowe <ay986@chebucto.ns.ca> - 2019-03-26 23:40 +0100
Re: text editors Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-03-28 01:30 +0100
Re: text editors John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-03-28 03:00 +0100
Re: text editors <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-03-28 09:20 +0100
Re: text editors mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-03-27 12:10 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-29 07:30 +0100
Re: text editors Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-03-29 09:30 +0100
Re: text editors mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-03-30 12:20 +0100
Page 3 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Next page →
| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-28 21:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGJvz-1EE-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206715 |
tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > Eating roquefort is impractical because you gotta drink wine anyway :-) > hahaha, true! > Look -- you can do both (I do). If you're looking for excuses to stay > away from Emacs: no need to, just do. But as little need to spread FUD > about Emacs. Yes, Emacs is a decent editor. No, you don't /have/ to > know Lisp to use it. Yes, if you do learn Lisp, you get powers few > other editors give you. Yes, Emacs is somewhat idiosincratic (as Vi(m) > is -- most powerful editors seem to be). I've been there exactly 17y ago. I still have no idea where lisp is used except in Emacs and some exotic projects, so being pragmatic ... good for you who know emacs - for the rest good that you do not know emacs. I can not be more balanced :) regards
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| From | Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 02:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Emacs without knowing any Lisp (was: text editors) |
| Message-ID | <xGOOB-4I5-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206758 |
deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> writes: > I've been there exactly 17y ago. I still have no idea where lisp is used > except in Emacs and some exotic projects, so being pragmatic ... good for > you who know emacs - for the rest good that you do not know emacs. I've been a happy and productive Emacs user for more than 17 years and still don't edit any Lisp. It just isn't necessary to get things done. (I hear the Atom text editor is implemented in JavaScript; that doesn't imply JavaScript knowledge is needed to use Atom.) With that knowledge, hopefully more people can explore using Emacs <URL:https://tuhdo.github.io/emacs-tutor.html>. -- \ “The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not | `\ you believe in it.” —Neil deGrasse Tyson, 2011-02-04 | _o__) | Ben Finney
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| From | Bill Wood <william.wood3@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 06:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Emacs without knowing any Lisp (was: text editors) |
| Message-ID | <xGSyS-77e-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206766 |
On Fri, 2019-03-29 at 12:48 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: > deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> writes: > > > I've been there exactly 17y ago. I still have no idea where lisp is used > > except in Emacs and some exotic projects, so being pragmatic ... good for > > you who know emacs - for the rest good that you do not know emacs. > > I've been a happy and productive Emacs user for more than 17 years and > still don't edit any Lisp. It just isn't necessary to get things done. > > (I hear the Atom text editor is implemented in JavaScript; that doesn't > imply JavaScript knowledge is needed to use Atom.) > > With that knowledge, hopefully more people can explore using Emacs > <URL:https://tuhdo.github.io/emacs-tutor.html>. > FWIW I've been using emacs on mainframes, workstations, and PCs since about 1984. I've found the elisp programmatic interface useful since I first cobbled together a set of rectangle-oriented tools (since replaced by the rectangle commands provided by more recent versions of emacs; see section 9.5 of the emacs manual for emacs 24). I also use Common Lisp for most of my application programming, which involves either mathematical programming (bignums and big rationals are wonderful for some number theoretic computations) or interesting computational problems (suffix trees for classical cryptanalysis, exploring patterns in calendars, whatever catches my eye). I've recently been developing tools to assist extracting text from web sites and reformatting as page-oriented documents rather than unpaged HTML (personal preference; I'm an old fart who likes documents with real pages, footnotes, headers and footers, etc.) The elisp tools help me transform scraped text into LaTeX source files. I also put together some Python scripts for setting up and managing the directory structure for extracted texts. My first point is, having access to a full-blown programming language for doing task-specific work within an editor is *wonderful*; my second point is, the lisp family of languages are very useful and flexible tools for, among other things, exploratory programming. -- Bill Wood
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| From | John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-28 14:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGCX7-64X-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206710 |
Gian Uberto Lauri writes: > But vim is an attempt to rewrite emacs the wrong way. I don't think that's fair. Vim is an attempt to extend Vi. I don't like it and always run it in "compatible" mode, but that's because Vi was the first text editor I learned. -- John Hasler jhasler@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-28 14:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGDzP-6ii-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206731 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 08:00:27AM -0500, John Hasler wrote: > Gian Uberto Lauri writes: > > But vim is an attempt to rewrite emacs the wrong way. > > I don't think that's fair [...] Me neither. And this is slowly sliding into That Kind Of Flame War. I had that already... over twenty years ago. I don't think I need that again. Cheers & enjoy -- tomás
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-28 14:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGDgu-6bx-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206710 |
On Thu 28 Mar 2019 at 07:51:53 (+0100), deloptes wrote: > John Hasler wrote: > > > Not true. [… in response to "exactly - learning emacs means learning lisp - what for? I switched years ago to ne."] > really, I did not know that you could be me and you knew my experience. > Anyway emacs is not bad for those who know it, but it is impractical because > you have mostly vim installed, so learning vim is a must indeed. > > If you use debian I recommend learning ne - a great editor unfortunately not > installed by default. Please, if you're going to criticise someone's comment, include their comment in your quoting. If you think that it requires being you or knowing your experience to judge the statement "learning emacs means learning lisp", then it's likely that you don't understand what the word "means" means when used like that. So we're left wondering why you've stated that learning emacs necessarily involves learning lisp, either beforehand or at the same time. I've been using, and learning, emacs for over two decades and I have no knowledge of lisp other than . it's used to implement emacs, . there are lots of dialects, . it uses lots and lots of parentheses. Cheers, David.
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| From | John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-28 15:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGE2R-6HB-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206732 |
David writes: > So we're left wondering why you've stated that learning emacs > necessarily involves learning lisp, either beforehand or at the same > time. Probably because Emacs advocates often over-enthuse about extensibility, giving the erroneous impression that knowing how to write extensions is a necessary part of knowing how to use Emacs. In fact, much of what we now know as Emacs *is* extensions written in Elisp and many more extensions are available. You no more need to know Elisp to use them or to install additional ones than you need to know C to use Vim. There is also the fact that the configuration file is written in Elisp and one once had to know at least a tiny bit of Elisp to edit it. Now there is a configuration interface to handle that but the myth lingers on, along with the myth that one needs to memorize hundreds of esoteric escape sequences. -- John Hasler jhasler@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-28 15:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGEcx-6KX-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206734 |
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On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 09:15:19AM -0500, John Hasler wrote: > David writes: > > So we're left wondering why you've stated that learning emacs > > necessarily involves learning lisp, either beforehand or at the same > > time. [...] > There is also the fact that the configuration file is written in Elisp > and one once had to know at least a tiny bit of Elisp to edit it [...] That's as if you say you gotta know Javascript to edit a JSON file. Well... yes, kinda :-) Cheers -- t
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-28 21:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGJOV-1Li-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206734 |
John Hasler wrote: > In fact, much of what we now know as Emacs *is* extensions written in > Elisp and many more extensions are available. You no more need to know > Elisp to use them or to install additional ones than you need to know C > to use Vim. I prefer learning C ;-)
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 00:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGMMN-3wN-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206760 |
Matyáš Bobek wrote: > I reckon writing vim extensions in C must be quite obscure... How is it > done? I just started with C and never needed to write extension so far, but I did use C to solve some kernel bugs :D
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| From | Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 06:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGSfv-70f-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206760 |
On 28.03.19 21:32, Matyáš Bobek wrote: > I reckon writing vim extensions in C must be quite obscure... How is it > done? It's not. They are written in vimscript, analogous to elisp. There is a large landscape of add-ons written in the language, and a choice of managers to automate the minor tedium of installing them in the right place. The few bits of vimscript in my .vimrc are minimal, such as a function to append section length in lines or pages when the section is folded. Erik
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| From | Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 09:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGUAF-8kT-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206768 |
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Erik Christiansen [2019-03-29 16:26:41+11] wrote:
> It's not. They [Vim extensions] are written in vimscript, analogous to
> elisp.
Vim script is analogous to Emacs Lisp in the point of view that both of
them are used to extend and configure the editor. There is also
important difference which comes from the environment.
Vim is written in the C language which provides the editor interface and
the programming environment for Vim script. Some Vim's features are
written in Vim script language.
Emacs's core is written in the C language but the relation to Emacs Lisp
is different from Vim. Very big part of the editor and the Lisp
environment is written in Emacs Lisp. So Emacs Lisp is not only an
extension language or a scripting language. It's also the
_implementation_ language of the Emacs system itself. This means that
Emacs developers and Emacs users mostly work on the same language and
users can go much deeper into the Emacs core than in Vim's case.
For example, text buffers are first-class Lisp objects in the Emacs
system, just like integers, strings and other usual programming language
objects. Below is an example with "M-x ielm" REPL:
ELISP> (type-of "foo")
string
ELISP> (current-buffer)
#<buffer *ielm*>
ELISP> (type-of (current-buffer))
buffer
--
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. <https://keybase.io/tlikonen> //
// PGP: 4E10 55DC 84E9 DFF6 13D7 8557 719D 69D3 2453 9450 ///
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| From | Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 10:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGVQ5-Qf-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206768 |
On 29.03.19 08:47, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> >>>>> "EC" == Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> writes:
>
> EC> On 28.03.19 21:32, Matyáš Bobek wrote:
> >> I reckon writing vim extensions in C must be quite obscure... How
> >> is it done?
>
> EC> It's not. They are written in vimscript, analogous to elisp.
>
> Sorry not. While Elisp is a Lisp dialect, therefore is a language that
> has been formally proved to be equivalent to turing-machine, that is
> not certain for vimscript.
Yes, yes, reflexive combativeness is jolly good fun, but understanding
is more useful in the long term. The statement you think you've replied
to would seem to use "equal"¹, but the actual word used refers to being an
analogue, i.e. taking the same place in the other editor.
Erik
¹ As in "of equal standing", perhaps.
--
No one really listens to anyone else, and if you try it for a while
you'll see why.
- Mignon McLaughlin
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| From | Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 12:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xGY1A-28a-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206773 |
On 29.03.19 10:50, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote: > >>>>> "EC" == Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> writes: > > EC> Yes, yes, reflexive combativeness is jolly good fun, but > EC> understanding is more useful in the long term. > > In my experience, if the language is elegant and wise, you can write > your code "easily" and often you get better coding. > > EC> word used refers to being an analogue, i.e. taking the same place > EC> in the other editor. > > As someone else wisely pointed out in this thread (my apologies for > forgetting the name), Emacs is built in Lisp, the interpreter and some > speed critical parts are coded in C, but the latter are somewhat "C > coded Lisp objects". > > Differently from other tools that can be extended with "plugins", in > Emacs is simpler to pass from the "I know which key to press" to the > "I know what code to write" - provided you have some minimal knowledge > of Lisp syntax and constructs - because in Emacs every keystroke > triggers a function call and you Emacs tells you which function is > invoked, how to use it and even, if you have the lisp sources > installed, see its implementation. That's how some "random amateur > lisp coder" was able to bang the original html-helper-mode to the tool > he used to survive ASP pages :). Yup, again, output-only mode - unrelated to input. A ROM-based monologue doesn't make for much of a conversation, certainly not a thoughtful one. Erik
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| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 18:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xH31f-56s-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206768 |
> Sorry not. While Elisp is a Lisp dialect, therefore is a language that
> has been formally proved to be equivalent to turing-machine, that is
> not certain for vimscript.
Vimscript may not be as elegant and powerful as Elisp, but there is no
doubt that it is Turing-complete (pretty much any language with a `while`
loop and some kind of dynamic allocation is Turing-complete, so it's
a pretty low bar).
It's a full-blown programming language.
Stefan
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 19:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xH4JH-6ek-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206768 |
Gian Uberto Lauri wrote: > EC> It's not. They are written in vimscript, analogous to elisp. > > Sorry not. While Elisp is a Lisp dialect, therefore is a language that > has been formally proved to be equivalent to turing-machine, that is > not certain for vimscript. > > And the elegance of the tool is more important that it seems at first > glance. I've been listening at this BS at the university as well. Until now I have not seen any practical or pragmatic use of this. I have worked with PL and prolog for a while ... unfortunately I think in coming years or decades it all will be declared dead ... when the true AI from China will take over :D :D :D regards
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| From | John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-29 20:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xH533-6AN-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206785 |
Gian writes: > And the elegance of the tool is more important that it seems at first > glance. deloptes writes: > I've been listening at this BS at the university as well. Until now I > have not seen any practical or pragmatic use of this. The results of ignoring it are evident all over the Web. -- John Hasler jhasler@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-30 00:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xH8Nk-tw-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206786 |
John Hasler wrote: > deloptes writes: >> I've been listening at this BS at the university as well. Until now I >> have not seen any practical or pragmatic use of this. > > The results of ignoring it are evident all over the Web. this is true, unfortunately. It was 2009 when I finally gave up. If found out that in every single are of science there is the mainstream and the good stream, but the mainstream supressing the good stream ... I was dreaming of applications programmed in PL, but found out that it is not desired, so it is laughable how today everybody is talking of AI. WTF! It's screwed at the base and unless things change there, nothing will change else where. This is crap and this whole discussion around emacs and lisp is laughable as well - overblown text editor for what ... to write text files?! Give me a break, pls!
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| From | Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-30 00:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xH96F-zZ-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206788 |
On Friday 29 March 2019 19:08:20 deloptes wrote: > John Hasler wrote: > > deloptes writes: > >> I've been listening at this BS at the university as well. Until now > >> I have not seen any practical or pragmatic use of this. > > > > The results of ignoring it are evident all over the Web. > > this is true, unfortunately. It was 2009 when I finally gave up. If > found out that in every single are of science there is the mainstream > and the good stream, but the mainstream supressing the good stream ... > I was dreaming of applications programmed in PL, but found out that it > is not desired, so it is laughable how today everybody is talking of > AI. WTF! It's screwed at the base and unless things change there, > nothing will change else where. > This is crap and this whole discussion around emacs and lisp is > laughable as well - overblown text editor for what ... to write text > files?! Give me a break, pls! +10 deloptes The editor is a personal choice. What I care about is what comes out of it. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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| From | John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-03-30 01:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <xH9T3-165-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206789 |
I'm not trying to persuade anyone to use Emacs. I am trying to convince people not to be deterred from trying it because of myths such as "You can't use Emacs if you can't program in Lisp". -- John Hasler jhasler@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
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