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Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

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  Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-23 16:00 +0200
    Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-23 16:40 +0200
    Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Jeremy Nicoll <jn.ml.dbn.25@letterboxes.org> - 2018-10-23 16:50 +0200
    Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-10-23 17:20 +0200
      Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-24 02:20 +0200
        Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-10-24 06:40 +0200
          Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-24 12:50 +0200
            Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-10-24 18:50 +0200
              Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-24 19:00 +0200
                Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-10-24 19:10 +0200
                Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-10-24 20:10 +0200
                  Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2018-10-25 02:40 +0200
              Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-24 19:50 +0200
                Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2018-10-24 20:10 +0200
                  Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-24 20:40 +0200
                    Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-10-24 21:10 +0200
              Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Andrew Wood <andrewjameswood@ymail.com> - 2018-10-24 20:00 +0200
                Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-24 20:30 +0200
                  Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Andrew Wood <andrewjameswood@ymail.com> - 2018-10-25 22:20 +0200
                    Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Andrew Wood <andrewjameswood@ymail.com> - 2018-10-25 22:30 +0200
                    Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-25 22:40 +0200
                      Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2018-10-30 18:30 +0100
                        Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-30 18:40 +0100
                          Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-30 20:10 +0100
                            Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-30 20:30 +0100
                              Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-30 20:40 +0100
                            Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-30 20:30 +0100
                              Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-10-30 22:00 +0100
                                Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 00:20 +0100
              Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-10-24 20:10 +0200
                Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2018-10-24 21:20 +0200
                  Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-10-24 23:00 +0200
                    Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-24 23:10 +0200
    Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-23 18:00 +0200
      Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-24 16:00 +0200

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#201643

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 09:19:02PM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> I chose Haiku becuase the MUA is unique - it doesnt have a typcial GUI it
> simply periodically downloads mail from an IMAP/POP server into a folder.
> MailMistress gets notified when the contents of this folder is updated,
> processes the incoming message and sends it out via the Haiku MUA which
> talks SMTP to the MTA, hence it works behind NAT etc.

http://www.fetchmail.info/
https://packages.debian.org/stretch/fetchmail

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#201895

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 16:31:47 -0400
Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 09:19:02PM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> > I chose Haiku becuase the MUA is unique - it doesnt have a typcial GUI it
> > simply periodically downloads mail from an IMAP/POP server into a folder.
> > MailMistress gets notified when the contents of this folder is updated,
> > processes the incoming message and sends it out via the Haiku MUA which
> > talks SMTP to the MTA, hence it works behind NAT etc.
> 
> http://www.fetchmail.info/
> https://packages.debian.org/stretch/fetchmail

Probably better:

http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/
https://packages.debian.org/sid/getmail
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getmail
http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why

Celejar

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#201899

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 01:27:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> Probably better:
> 
> http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/getmail
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getmail
> http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why

Interesting.  I haven't used fetchmail in a *long* time (think dial-up),
so I wasn't aware of the issues in that FAQ.

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#201903

On Tuesday 30 October 2018 13:31:05 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 01:27:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > Probably better:
> >
> > http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/
> > https://packages.debian.org/sid/getmail
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getmail
> > http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why
>
> Interesting.  I haven't used fetchmail in a *long* time (think
> dial-up), so I wasn't aware of the issues in that FAQ.

As a long term, probably 15+ years user of fetchmail, I've never found it 
hard to configure, and the only incoming I didn't get was what procmail, 
as the mda agent didn't like from clamav, even spam comes on in and 
kmail sorts it to a spam directory. That which is virii, procmail puts 
in /var/spool/virii instead of delivering it to me.

As a long term, 20 years or so, use of an isp who used qmail, by djb, I 
was rather put off by its instant acceptance of what was patently spam, 
and finally switching because the place was sold and I lost that account 
since I'd been retired 13 years already, I switched to my isp's dovecot 
server, and 99% of the spam disappeared. Their install of dovecot 
includes its also being a pop3 server, but because 99% of Shentels users 
are rigged for imap, fetchmails ability to delete a successfully 
transferred email has been defaulted to off. But I can and do log in 
about daily and clean it out with FF.

If I was to switch to getmail, would getmail then be able to delete a 
fetched email from this dovecot server which I am currently accessing as 
a pop3 client.

Found the docs, s/b well explained there. But the initial setup would be 
a bunch easier if it was all printed out so I had the step by step in 
hand. Can FF do a decent job of the html versions?  Or do I need to 
extract the .gz's and load them into geany for conversion to paper 
copies?

Many Thanks to anyone familiar with this.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#201904

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 03:03:05PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> As a long term, 20 years or so, use of an isp who used qmail, by djb, I 
> was rather put off by its instant acceptance of what was patently spam, 
> and finally switching because the place was sold and I lost that account 

qmail is great, but the qmail-smtpd that comes with it is not.  Any
serious qmail admin in 2018 has to understand that, and replace it with
something else.  There are a few drop-in replacements for it, but sadly
qmail is dying out.  I think many of the former qmail admins have
migrated to postfix.

I'm currently using qmail + qpsmtpd.  Setting up qpsmtpd is several times
harder than setting up qmail.

Handling incoming mail is just *hard*.

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#201907

On 2018-10-30 19:23, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 03:03:05PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> As a long term, 20 years or so, use of an isp who used qmail, by djb, 
>> I
>> was rather put off by its instant acceptance of what was patently 
>> spam,
>> and finally switching because the place was sold and I lost that 
>> account
> 
> qmail is great, but the qmail-smtpd that comes with it is not.  Any
> serious qmail admin in 2018 has to understand that, and replace it with
> something else.  There are a few drop-in replacements for it, but sadly
> qmail is dying out.  I think many of the former qmail admins have
> migrated to postfix.
> 
> I'm currently using qmail + qpsmtpd.  Setting up qpsmtpd is several 
> times
> harder than setting up qmail.
> 
> Handling incoming mail is just *hard*.

polishes glasses and rereads previous mail.

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#201905

On 2018-10-30 19:03, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 October 2018 13:31:05 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 01:27:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
>> > Probably better:
>> >
>> > http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/
>> > https://packages.debian.org/sid/getmail
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getmail
>> > http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why
>> 
>> Interesting.  I haven't used fetchmail in a *long* time (think
>> dial-up), so I wasn't aware of the issues in that FAQ.
> 
> As a long term, probably 15+ years user of fetchmail, I've never found 
> it
> hard to configure, and the only incoming I didn't get was what 
> procmail,
> as the mda agent didn't like from clamav, even spam comes on in and
> kmail sorts it to a spam directory. That which is virii, procmail puts
> in /var/spool/virii instead of delivering it to me.
> 
> As a long term, 20 years or so, use of an isp who used qmail, by djb, I
> was rather put off by its instant acceptance of what was patently spam,
> and finally switching because the place was sold and I lost that 
> account
> since I'd been retired 13 years already, I switched to my isp's dovecot
> server, and 99% of the spam disappeared. Their install of dovecot
> includes its also being a pop3 server, but because 99% of Shentels 
> users
> are rigged for imap, fetchmails ability to delete a successfully
> transferred email has been defaulted to off. But I can and do log in
> about daily and clean it out with FF.
> 
> If I was to switch to getmail, would getmail then be able to delete a
> fetched email from this dovecot server which I am currently accessing 
> as
> a pop3 client.
> 
> Found the docs, s/b well explained there. But the initial setup would 
> be
> a bunch easier if it was all printed out so I had the step by step in
> hand. Can FF do a decent job of the html versions?  Or do I need to
> extract the .gz's and load them into geany for conversion to paper
> copies?
> 
> Many Thanks to anyone familiar with this.

I'm using getmail with dovecot deliver since fetchmail stopped working 
with gmail changing the ssl certificate ( server ) all the bloody time.
getmail doesn't have this problem for me although there is still a 
problem with gmail insisting on keeping deleted mail ( gone from IMAP 
inbox) in "all mail".
Other people seem to manage from the getmail mailing list so I probably 
haven't got the syntax quite right in getmairc.
dunno about pop.

mick

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#201910

On 2018-10-30, mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm using getmail with dovecot deliver since fetchmail stopped working 
> with gmail changing the ssl certificate ( server ) all the bloody time.
> getmail doesn't have this problem for me although there is still a 
> problem with gmail insisting on keeping deleted mail ( gone from IMAP 
> inbox) in "all mail".

I believe there is a setting to prevent it from insisting on this (IOW
to make it act like a conforming IMAP implementation in this regard).

-- 
When you have fever you are heavy and light, you are small and swollen, you
climb endlessly a ladder which turns like a wheel. 
--Jean Rhys, Voyage in the Dark

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#201915

On 2018-10-30 20:54, Curt wrote:
> On 2018-10-30, mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I'm using getmail with dovecot deliver since fetchmail stopped working
>> with gmail changing the ssl certificate ( server ) all the bloody 
>> time.
>> getmail doesn't have this problem for me although there is still a
>> problem with gmail insisting on keeping deleted mail ( gone from IMAP
>> inbox) in "all mail".
> 
> I believe there is a setting to prevent it from insisting on this (IOW
> to make it act like a conforming IMAP implementation in this regard).

just looked and it all seems to be working as expected, maybe something 
changed.


-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#201602

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:47:10 -0400
Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:

> On 10/24/18 6:45 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:32:15 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:
> >  
> > > Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things
> > > tend to  
> >  
> > > get hairy.  Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.  And, a
> > > lot of  
> >  
> > > ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.  
> >
> > We are currently such a small group, I don't think it will be an
> > issue -- if that changes, we can change.
> >  
> 
> Which - DynDNS or ISP objections?
> 
> The thing about dynamic DNS is that people cache DNS records - mail
> sent to the list WILL go to the wrong place on occasion.
> 
> Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of
> active measures that block various kinds of traffic.

Then they're not a proper ISP. I pay for an *Internet* connection, not
just the forwarding of a few ports that are convenient for the provider.

> 
> > > Bummer.  But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help
> > > you  
> >  
> > > out?  I expect there might be somebody on this list who might
> > > volunteer  
> >  
> > > (hint, hint).  Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe
> > > you  
> >  
> > > have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)  
> >
> > We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them
> > up on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on
> > one of my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server
> > or a *nix style MTA
> >  
> Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that
> I've worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the
> MTA that processes mail.  And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam
> and anti-virus filters.  And, you'll need a webserver for access to
> various administrative functions, and archive access.  Depending on
> the list server, you might also require a dbms.  Setting up list
> services can be an entertaining and educational exercise (also
> frustrating), but it's not simple.  (Actually, the simplest approach
> is using an MTA and managing lists in the alias file.)

There's no technical problem to using a local MTA and your ISP's SMTP
server as a proxy.

-- 
Joe

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#201608

On 10/24/18 2:05 PM, Joe wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:47:10 -0400
> Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/24/18 6:45 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:32:15 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>   
>>>> Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things
>>>> tend to
>>>   
>>>> get hairy.  Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.  And, a
>>>> lot of
>>>   
>>>> ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.
>>> We are currently such a small group, I don't think it will be an
>>> issue -- if that changes, we can change.
>>>   
>> Which - DynDNS or ISP objections?
>>
>> The thing about dynamic DNS is that people cache DNS records - mail
>> sent to the list WILL go to the wrong place on occasion.
>>
>> Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of
>> active measures that block various kinds of traffic.
> Then they're not a proper ISP. I pay for an *Internet* connection, not
> just the forwarding of a few ports that are convenient for the provider.

You can argue what constitutes proper or not, if you want a connection 
with any level of bandwidth, you're talking a major carrier - and they 
deliver the service that they want to.

>
>>>> Bummer.  But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help
>>>> you
>>>   
>>>> out?  I expect there might be somebody on this list who might
>>>> volunteer
>>>   
>>>> (hint, hint).  Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe
>>>> you
>>>   
>>>> have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)
>>> We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them
>>> up on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on
>>> one of my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server
>>> or a *nix style MTA
>>>   
>> Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that
>> I've worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the
>> MTA that processes mail.  And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam
>> and anti-virus filters.  And, you'll need a webserver for access to
>> various administrative functions, and archive access.  Depending on
>> the list server, you might also require a dbms.  Setting up list
>> services can be an entertaining and educational exercise (also
>> frustrating), but it's not simple.  (Actually, the simplest approach
>> is using an MTA and managing lists in the alias file.)
> There's no technical problem to using a local MTA and your ISP's SMTP
> server as a proxy.
>
You still need a local MTA - which the OP doesn't seem to want to run.

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

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#201610

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:09:37 -0400
Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:

> On 10/24/18 2:05 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:47:10 -0400
> > Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
> >  

> >>
> >> Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of
> >> active measures that block various kinds of traffic.  
> > Then they're not a proper ISP. I pay for an *Internet* connection,
> > not just the forwarding of a few ports that are convenient for the
> > provider.  
> 
> You can argue what constitutes proper or not, if you want a
> connection with any level of bandwidth, you're talking a major
> carrier - and they deliver the service that they want to.

I've always found it odd that the country that invented the Internet
seems to have such poor Internet provision. We (UK) have the choice of
at least half a dozen major ISPs, all delivering fibre to the local
cabinet, i.e. 40-80Mb/s, at least in cities and towns. Rural is a bit
patchy.

Two of them are fairly professional, another one very much so but
expensive, the rest are domestic who wouldn't know a fixed IP address if
it bit them. There are also many small ISPs who buy wholesale from
BT, the national phone company. But there's plenty of genuine
competition, and at least three of the ISPs will provide a fixed IP
address and no messing about with blocking. BT itself will also
provide fixed IP but unfortunately with a domestic level of customer
service, even on its 'business' accounts. 

As to bandwidth, I'd have thought a private mailing list would have
fairly small requirements, at least compared with a houseful of teens
streaming films...

-- 
Joe

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#201611

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 09:52:20PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> I've always found it odd that the country that invented the Internet
> seems to have such poor Internet provision. We (UK) have the choice of
> at least half a dozen major ISPs, all delivering fibre to the local
> cabinet, i.e. 40-80Mb/s, at least in cities and towns. Rural is a bit
> patchy.

You also have a lot less land area to cover.  But you do have a valid
point -- consumer-level availability and quality of Internet service in
the US is lagging far behind much of Europe.

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#201554

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 09:53:57AM -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> I want to establish a mailing list for the group.
> 
> I want to find either:
> 
>    * a "service" that would host a mailing list for the group for free
> 
>    * or, put a (simple) mailing list application on one of my machines, behind 
> a firewall (well, NAT) and not require the use of anything that (in my mind) 
> takes a lot of work or more knowledge than I have atm to setup -- for example, 
> I don't want it to depend on (or be) an MTA, Apache (or any other web server), 
> or even a windows email client that I'm not using (I currently use kmail, and 
> plan to stick with it).
> 
> I'd prefer that, whatever I find, receive / retrieve posts via POP3 (via my 
> ISP) and send posts via SMTP (again, via my ISP), and I'd prefer that emails 
> be stored in mbox files (but, I could live with maildir).
> 
> I looked at packages available that might meet my needs (just by searching for 
> mailing list in apper and then looking at the dependencies) -- I found the 
> following that might meet my needs -- I'll start by investigating courier (the 
> pop version).
> 
>    * courier-pop
>    * enemies-of-carlotta
>    * mimmj
>    * quickml
>    * schleuder
>    * smartlist

You have a weird restriction:

"I don't want it to depend on (or be) an MTA"

and MTA is pretty much the definition of "can receive and send
arbitrary email messages", which is what you need.

courier is an MTA.

enemies-of-carlotta and the others you mention depend on having
at least some MTA available to them.

Given your restriction, you need a service.

-dsr-

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#201590

BTW, I'm on the mailing list, so you don't need to copy me directly.

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 08:12:13 PM rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:51:21 AM Dan Ritter wrote:
> > You have a weird restriction:
> I was trying to usurp Richard Owlett's position ;-)
> 
> > "I don't want it to depend on (or be) an MTA"
> > 
> > and MTA is pretty much the definition of "can receive and send
> > arbitrary email messages", which is what you need.
> > 
> > courier is an MTA.
> > 
> > enemies-of-carlotta and the others you mention depend on having
> > at least some MTA available to them.
> > 
> > Given your restriction, you need a service.

I guess I could clarify -- I don't mind if the mailing list software uses my 
ISP's MTA, I don't want to have one on my own machine.  (Note that I don't 
consider kmail as being an MTA, but instead, being a Windows-style (mcow -- my 
choice of words) email client, using POP3 and SMTP to communicate to my ISP 
(and maybe to their MTA).

Anyway, as stated below, we'll probably use the service that has been 
volunteered to us.

> Thanks for your reply!
> 
> I'm going to ramble for a minute:
> 
>    * kmail, afaik, is not an MTA, but it can send and receive arbitrary
> email messages, so I thought that there might be a mail list manager that
> can do the same (I sometimes call that kind of thing a Windows-style email
> client)
> 
>    * I guess I read the dependencies for courier-pop wrong, becaust it does
> seem to require an MTA, but, the other software I had on that list did not
> list either an MTA or a web server (unless I misread some of those, also)
> 
> But, if none of those work, I'll go for a service -- one has already been
> graciously volunteered to us.

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