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Youtube - newbie guidance

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  Youtube - newbie guidance Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-22 22:10 +0100
    Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Kent West <westk@acu.edu> - 2017-12-22 22:20 +0100
      Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Kent West <westk@acu.edu> - 2017-12-22 22:20 +0100
      Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 12:50 +0100
        Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-12-23 13:40 +0100
      Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-23 12:50 +0100
      Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2017-12-24 03:40 +0100
        Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-24 06:10 +0100
    Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-12-22 23:10 +0100
      Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Andre Majorel <aym-naibed@teaser.fr> - 2017-12-22 23:30 +0100
        Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-12-22 23:30 +0100
      Re: Youtube - newbie guidance songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-12-23 00:00 +0100
        Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2017-12-23 01:50 +0100
          Re: Youtube - newbie guidance <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-12-23 11:30 +0100
            Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-12-23 16:10 +0100
              Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-12-23 17:30 +0100
          Re: Youtube - newbie guidance songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-12-23 15:10 +0100
            Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2017-12-23 16:10 +0100
            Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-12-24 02:50 +0100
              Re: Youtube - newbie guidance The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-12-24 03:30 +0100
      Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-23 11:10 +0100
        Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 21:40 +0100
          OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-12-23 22:00 +0100
            Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance) Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2017-12-23 22:20 +0100
              Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance) Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 22:40 +0100
            Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance) Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 22:30 +0100
            Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance) Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-12-26 18:40 +0100
              Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-12-27 05:30 +0100
                Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance) Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-12-28 06:00 +0100
        Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@surfnaked.ca> - 2017-12-24 00:40 +0100
    Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 00:40 +0100
    Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2017-12-23 04:10 +0100
      Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-23 11:20 +0100
        Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 12:00 +0100
          Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-23 12:30 +0100
            Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 12:50 +0100
              Re: Youtube - newbie guidance deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-12-23 13:00 +0100
                Re: Youtube - newbie guidance Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-12-23 13:30 +0100
              Re: Youtube - newbie guidance davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2017-12-23 23:10 +0100

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#190186

On 12/22/2017 04:06 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:
>
>> I've never used youtube before.
>
> One thing to note explicitly: YouTube is deliberately designed to
> thwart downloading videos.
>
> YouTube's owner (Google, Alphabet, whatever they call themselves next
> year) have chosen a business model [0] that benefits when more people
> keep watching videos *via the site* [1]. So downloading videos from
> the site works directly against the business model they have chosen.

I personally consider Google goal is to be as obnoxious as possible.
I avoid them whenever physically possible.

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#190220

On 12/23/2017 05:02 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 12/22/2017 04:06 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>> Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:
>>
>>> I've never used youtube before.
>>
>> One thing to note explicitly: YouTube is deliberately designed to
>> thwart downloading videos.
>>
>> YouTube's owner (Google, Alphabet, whatever they call themselves next
>> year) have chosen a business model [0] that benefits when more people
>> keep watching videos *via the site* [1]. So downloading videos from
>> the site works directly against the business model they have chosen.
> 
> I personally consider Google goal is to be as obnoxious as possible.
> I avoid them whenever physically possible.

Just use youtube-dl on the command line while being in the directory you 
wish to save the video in. The copy the video url and use it like this:
 >youtube-dl <paste the URL here>
Every once in awhile use this to update it
 >sudo youtube-dl -U


Bob's your uncle. BTW, Google is no where as obnoxious as AOL during the 
old days when you could be paying hundreds a month for access to the web 
and email. I'll take Google any day and thank them for the huge 
freebies. Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#190222 — OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance)

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 03:31:31 PM Ric Moore wrote:
> Bob's your uncle. BTW, Google is no where as obnoxious as AOL during the
> old days when you could be paying hundreds a month for access to the web
> and email. I'll take Google any day and thank them for the huge
> freebies. Ric

This is OT, but I remember AOL as being expensive, but I didn't think it was 
hundreds per month.

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#190223 — Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance)

On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 03:50:34PM -0500, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>This is OT, but I remember AOL as being expensive, but I didn't think it was
>hundreds per month.

It really depended on how much self control you had--in the early 90s it 
was like $6/hr.

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#190226 — Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance)

On 12/23/17, Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 03:50:34PM -0500, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>>This is OT, but I remember AOL as being expensive, but I didn't think it
>> was
>>hundreds per month.
>
> It really depended on how much self control you had--in the early 90s it
> was like $6/hr.


*Self-control* was the word I was looking for in my response. One bill
like whatever ours was that time, and we never used close to an hour
again ever after..

I don't know who we used.. Or maybe the kids stayed up all night.. Or
worse yet, they just walked away and left it connected or something.
The bill we had was LARGE and became the beginning of the end of how
he became an ex, lol...

In hindsight, I can't imagine what the whole bunch of us did to spend
that much time online. Studebaker is always my fall back example.
There were only 300 references to Studebaker TOTAL circa 1998, 1999.
That number has slightly increased since then.

Today, anyone with a phone where they're sick at their stomach having
to monitor the data usage has a taste of what it was like back
then.... :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

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#190224 — Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance)

On 12/23/17, rhkramer@gmail.com <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 23, 2017 03:31:31 PM Ric Moore wrote:
>> Bob's your uncle. BTW, Google is no where as obnoxious as AOL during the
>> old days when you could be paying hundreds a month for access to the web
>> and email. I'll take Google any day and thank them for the huge
>> freebies. Ric
>
> This is OT, but I remember AOL as being expensive, but I didn't think it was
>
> hundreds per month.


I don't remember who my ex-boyfriend was using back circa ~1994, but
we got something like one single hour.... then paid by each single
minute thereafter..

His daughter and her boyfriend ran up the bill one time, and he wanted
MY bank account to pay for it. I don't remember the amount now, but it
was no petty $10... or even $50. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

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#190321 — Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance)

On 12/23/2017 03:50 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 23, 2017 03:31:31 PM Ric Moore wrote:
>> Bob's your uncle. BTW, Google is no where as obnoxious as AOL during the
>> old days when you could be paying hundreds a month for access to the web
>> and email. I'll take Google any day and thank them for the huge
>> freebies. Ric
> 
> This is OT, but I remember AOL as being expensive, but I didn't think it was
> hundreds per month.


If you used it to any etent it was. I racked up several bills in the 
hundreds, doing what we take for granted nowadays. Luckily I had a 
moderator friend! Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#190333 — Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance)

On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:35:16 PM Ric Moore wrote:
> On 12/23/2017 03:50 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 23, 2017 03:31:31 PM Ric Moore wrote:
> >> Bob's your uncle. BTW, Google is no where as obnoxious as AOL during the
> >> old days when you could be paying hundreds a month for access to the web
> >> and email. I'll take Google any day and thank them for the huge
> >> freebies. Ric
> > 
> > This is OT, but I remember AOL as being expensive, but I didn't think it
> > was hundreds per month.
> 
> If you used it to any etent it was. I racked up several bills in the
> hundreds, doing what we take for granted nowadays. Luckily I had a
> moderator friend! Ric

Thanks!  I guess then I'm extra glad I never signed up for AOL!  (I used 
various Bulletin Boards back then.)

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#190372 — Re: OT: AOL fees (Re: Youtube - newbie guidance)

On 12/26/2017 11:28 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:35:16 PM Ric Moore wrote:

>> If you used it to any etent it was. I racked up several bills in the
>> hundreds, doing what we take for granted nowadays. Luckily I had a
>> moderator friend! Ric
> 
> Thanks!  I guess then I'm extra glad I never signed up for AOL!  (I used
> various Bulletin Boards back then.)

I ran "The Home for Wayward computers" BBS with 8 incoming lines/modems 
that gave everyone command-line access to a Linux server. We ran ytalk 
for everyone to chat with and a Nightmare MudOS that everyone edited and 
built. Great times. And all of that on a 486-66. One of the biggest free 
BBS's on the east coast at the time. It's amazing what you can do with a 
little CPU using just text mode. Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#190231

On 23/12/17 02:02 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 12/22/2017 04:06 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>
>> Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:
>>
>>> I've never used youtube before.
>>
>> One thing to note explicitly: YouTube is deliberately designed to
>> thwart downloading videos.
>>
>> YouTube's owner (Google, Alphabet, whatever they call themselves next
>> year) have chosen a business model [0] that benefits when more people
>> keep watching videos *via the site* [1]. So downloading videos from
>> the site works directly against the business model they have chosen.
>
> I personally consider Google goal is to be as obnoxious as possible.
> I avoid them whenever physically possible.

I consider their goal to own every piece of data that exists in 
machine-readable form (with the exception of music, which they've agreed 
to let iTunes have).  This includes your personal data, which explains 
why they are setting up a surveillance network that puts Orwell's 
telescreens to shame.

This is why I use DuckDuckGo (https://duckduckgo.com) instead of Google 
for my search engine, MapQuest or zoom.earth for maps and satellite 
views, etc.

As for YouTube, if you do a search for (I don't say "google for" for 
reasons mentioned above) "youtube to mp3", you'll find a number of web 
pages into which you can paste a YouTube URL and it will convert the 
sound to an MP3 file which you can then download.  Great for getting a 
piece of music to practise with, for instance.  For that matter, some 
sites will convert to MP4 and you can download the video.

One of my favourite sites has disappeared, but lots remain.

-- 
cgibbs@surfnaked.ca (Charlie Gibbs)

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#190174

On Fri 22 Dec 2017 at 15:04:06 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

> I use User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:51.0) Gecko/20100101
> Firefox/51.0 SeaMonkey/2.48 on a Debian Stretch machine with the MATE
> desktop.
> 
> I've never used youtube before.
> I received a link to a youtube video
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82_bPWyrPFc> which played fine.

A mini howto is coming up.

> I did not have time to watch the whole video.
> How can I download and save it?

What does Debian have relating to youtube?

  apt search youtube | less

What can Debian do about downloading a youtube video on Stretch?

  youtube-dl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82_bPWyrPFc
   [youtube] 82_bPWyrPFc: Downloading webpage
   [youtube] 82_bPWyrPFc: Downloading video info webpage
   [youtube] 82_bPWyrPFc: Extracting video information
   WARNING: unable to extract uploader nickname
   [youtube] 82_bPWyrPFc: Downloading MPD manifest
   WARNING: Requested formats are incompatible for merge and will be merged into mkv.
   [download] Destination: Noodle Pi - Linux Powered Modular PDA _ Tablet-82_bPWyrPFc.f137.mp4
   [download]  44.0% of 562.32MiB at 674.29KiB/s ETA 07:58
        and so on until 100% .........
   [download] 100% of 38.35MiB in 00:56
   [ffmpeg] Merging formats into "Noodle Pi - Linux Powered Modular PDA _ Tablet-82_bPWyrPFc.mkv"
   Deleting original file Noodle Pi - Linux Powered Modular PDA _ Tablet-82_bPWyrPFc.f137.mp4 (pass -k to keep)
   Deleting original file Noodle Pi - Linux Powered Modular PDA _ Tablet-82_bPWyrPFc.f251.webm (pass -k to keep)

  brian@desktop:~$ ls -l Noodle\ Pi\ -\ Linux\ Powered\ Modular\ PDA\ _\ Tablet-82_bPWyrPFc.mkv
  -rw-r--r-- 1 brian brian 629306844 Dec 20 05:10 Noodle Pi - Linux Powered Modular PDA _ Tablet-82_bPWyrPFc.mkv

>    Its content is something I will wish to review and my data cap is
>    low enough that I can not just repeatedly access it If I didn't get
>    some point the creator was making.

How can I view the downloaded video?

  brian@desktop:~$ vlc Noodle\ Pi\ -\ Linux\ Powered\ Modular\ PDA\ _\ Tablet-82_bPWyrPFc.mkv 

> Is there some way to pause a video if I'm interrupted?

No problem with vlc.

> I did some searches of Synaptic. There were some hopeful hits. Their
> homepages didn't tell me if they could do what I want.
> 
> I did some web searches but again came away confused.
> I suspect I'm using wrong search terms &/or there is some underlying
> assumption that I'm missing.

'apt search' is the man!

-- 
Brian.

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#190181

cliget or youtube-viewer or youtube-dl can do that, but cliget does it 
with least complexity.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2017, Richard Owlett wrote:

> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 16:04:06
> From: Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net>
> To: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
> Subject: Youtube - newbie guidance
> Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 21:04:33 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> I use User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:51.0) Gecko/20100101 
> Firefox/51.0 SeaMonkey/2.48 on a Debian Stretch machine with the MATE 
> desktop.
>
> I've never used youtube before.
> I received a link to a youtube video 
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82_bPWyrPFc> which played fine.
>
> I did not have time to watch the whole video.
> How can I download and save it?
>    Its content is something I will wish to review and my data cap is
>    low enough that I can not just repeatedly access it If I didn't get
>    some point the creator was making.
> Is there some way to pause a video if I'm interrupted?
>
> I did some searches of Synaptic. There were some hopeful hits. Their 
> homepages didn't tell me if they could do what I want.
>
> I did some web searches but again came away confused.
> I suspect I'm using wrong search terms &/or there is some underlying 
> assumption that I'm missing.
>
>
> TIA
>
>

-- 

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#190187

On 12/22/2017 09:00 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> cliget or youtube-viewer or youtube-dl can do that, but cliget does it
> with least complexity.
>


Neither cliget nor youtube-viewer appear to be in Debian repository.

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#190190

On Sat 23 Dec 2017 at 04:10:00 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 12/22/2017 09:00 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > cliget or youtube-viewer or youtube-dl can do that, but cliget does it
> > with least complexity.
> > 
> 
> Neither cliget nor youtube-viewer appear to be in Debian repository.

youtube-viewer depends on youtube-dl, so it looks like a bells and
whistles provider.

Download a Debian package from

 https://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/webupd8/artful/main/base/youtube-viewer

All indications are that it will install successfully (on unstable
at least) with 'dpkg -i' and 'apt -f install'.

-- 
Brian.

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#190193

On 12/23/2017 04:55 AM, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 23 Dec 2017 at 04:10:00 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
>> On 12/22/2017 09:00 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>> cliget or youtube-viewer or youtube-dl can do that, but cliget does it
>>> with least complexity.
>>>
>>
>> Neither cliget nor youtube-viewer appear to be in Debian repository.
>
> youtube-viewer depends on youtube-dl, so it looks like a bells and
> whistles provider.
>
> Download a Debian package from
>
>  https://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/webupd8/artful/main/base/youtube-viewer
>

*WHY?* It does not appear to offer any appear to offer me any additional 
functionality, having installed youtube-dl.

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#190197

On Sat 23 Dec 2017 at 05:21:33 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 12/23/2017 04:55 AM, Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 23 Dec 2017 at 04:10:00 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > 
> > > On 12/22/2017 09:00 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > > > cliget or youtube-viewer or youtube-dl can do that, but cliget does it
> > > > with least complexity.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Neither cliget nor youtube-viewer appear to be in Debian repository.
> > 
> > youtube-viewer depends on youtube-dl, so it looks like a bells and
> > whistles provider.
> > 
> > Download a Debian package from
> > 
> >  https://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/webupd8/artful/main/base/youtube-viewer
> > 
> 
> *WHY?* It does not appear to offer any appear to offer me any additional
> functionality, having installed youtube-dl.

You remarked that youtube-viewer was not in the Debian archives; this
is correct. I provided a way for users to get and install it.

This is a mailing list, not a help-line for one user. You judge it not
to offer you anything (which you could have determined before writing
the mail with your cliget and youtube-viewer remark) but others might
be of a different opinion. Please refrain from having an expectation of
responses tailored exactly to your mode of thinking and over-emphasised
queries.

-- 
Brian.

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#190199

Brian wrote:

> You remarked that youtube-viewer was not in the Debian archives; this
> is correct. I provided a way for users to get and install it.

this is bad advise - you can not do this here on the list - IMO you should
take it off next time

regards

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#190201

On Sat 23 Dec 2017 at 12:55:05 +0100, deloptes wrote:

> Brian wrote:
> 
> > You remarked that youtube-viewer was not in the Debian archives; this
> > is correct. I provided a way for users to get and install it.
> 
> this is bad advise - you can not do this here on the list - IMO you should
> take it off next time

None of the advice I give here is bad :). Sub-optimal at times perhaps.
Incomplete - maybe. Contentious - adds spice to life.

Compile the program from source. Preferable? I wasn't prepared to test
this, whereas I did test (and felt I could advise) installing the
Debian package.

-- 
Brian.

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#190229

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017, Brian wrote:

> On Sat 23 Dec 2017 at 05:21:33 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
>> On 12/23/2017 04:55 AM, Brian wrote:
>>> On Sat 23 Dec 2017 at 04:10:00 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/22/2017 09:00 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>>> cliget or youtube-viewer or youtube-dl can do that, but cliget
>>>>> does it with least complexity.
>>>>>
>>>> Neither cliget nor youtube-viewer appear to be in Debian
>>>> repository.
>>>
>>> youtube-viewer depends on youtube-dl, so it looks like a bells and
>>> whistles provider.
>>>
>>> Download a Debian package from
>>>
>>>  https://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/webupd8/artful/main/base/youtube-viewer
>>>
>>
>> *WHY?* It does not appear to offer any appear to offer me any
>> additional functionality, having installed youtube-dl.
>
> You remarked that youtube-viewer was not in the Debian archives; this
> is correct. I provided a way for users to get and install it.
>
> This is a mailing list, not a help-line for one user. You judge it not
> to offer you anything (which you could have determined before writing
> the mail with your cliget and youtube-viewer remark) but others might
> be of a different opinion. Please refrain from having an expectation of
> responses tailored exactly to your mode of thinking and over-emphasised
> queries.

I concur with the gist of this final paragraph of Brian's.  Solutions
proposed on this list in response to clearly formulated queries might
benefit many subsequent readers besides an OP, and it rings a sour
note (for me, at any rate) whenever an OP seems not to recognise this.

However, it is worth noting that thread's subject includes the
qualifier "newbie guidance".[1]

The advice of Brian's above which OP (and deloptes) objected to is
cautioned against here, and rightly so:

  DontBreakDebian - Debian Wiki # Don't make a FrankenDebian
  https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian#Don.27t_make_a_FrankenDebian

Forcibly installing an ubuntu package on a debian system is bad advice
for someone new to debian.

Following such advice would tend to sabotage the great care that
debian invests in package management. Were a conflict to arise due to
a foreign package's installation, the frustrated new user might never
learn that their own actions, and not debian, were wholly to blame.

NOTE

1. I admit it is likely OP meant only to inform us of their
inexperience with YouTube, and not with debian. The many experiments
and investigations of Richard's, documented on this list, disqualify
him from debian newbie-hood. But subsequent readers of this thread
might easily miss that distinction.

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