Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #174869 > unrolled thread

hplip and use of the "driver plugin"

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

Contents

  hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-11-19 02:40 +0100
    Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-19 12:50 +0100
      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-11-19 19:00 +0100
    Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2016-11-19 15:40 +0100
      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-19 17:00 +0100
        Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2016-11-19 17:40 +0100
          Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-19 18:40 +0100
          Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-11-19 19:30 +0100
            Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-19 21:10 +0100
              Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-11-19 22:40 +0100
                Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-20 21:00 +0100
                  Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-11-21 00:00 +0100
                  Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" "James P. Wallen" <jpwallen@comcast.net> - 2016-11-21 00:20 +0100
                  Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2016-11-23 12:30 +0100
                    Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-23 13:00 +0100
                      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2016-11-23 15:10 +0100
                      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-24 19:30 +0100
              Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-24 21:50 +0100
        Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-19 18:10 +0100
          Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-19 18:50 +0100
        Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-11-19 19:20 +0100
          Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-19 20:50 +0100
            Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-11-19 22:30 +0100
              Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-12-04 20:00 +0100
                Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-06 04:10 +0100
      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-11-19 19:10 +0100
        Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-11-21 23:30 +0100
    Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-03 19:20 +0100
      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-03 20:20 +0100
        Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-03 21:20 +0100
          Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-04 12:50 +0100
            Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-12-04 16:00 +0100
              Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-04 16:50 +0100
              Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-06 04:00 +0100
                Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 00:50 +0100
                  Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-07 02:50 +0100
                    Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2016-12-07 09:00 +0100
                      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-07 16:20 +0100
        Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-12-03 21:30 +0100
          Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-03 21:40 +0100
            Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2016-12-06 00:40 +0100
              Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-06 04:10 +0100
                Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2016-12-06 06:40 +0100
          Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2016-12-04 02:00 +0100
            Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-04 06:40 +0100

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

#174894

On 11/19/2016 10:55 AM, Brian wrote:
> It was sub-thread of another thread. Starts here:
>
>  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/10/msg01016.html
>

Thanks. I think I get the idea, but I'll read that to see if I can get 
myself educated a little better.

>
> Why is it important for the printer to be blobless? Look at it this way:
>
> A printer is choc-a-bloc full of firmware. None of this firmware is
> accessible to a user, even if something like an interpreter is based on
> an open standard such as PostScript. Indeed, there may be a rasteriser
> which itself uses a proprietary format such as URF.
>
> Suppose there are some bugs in the firmware; for example, the AirPrint
> facility ceases to work reliably with an i-device. This has happened in
> the past and the manufacturer provided a binary blob to fix it. What
> would you do?
>
> Ok, I'll tell you what I would do. I would get the blob and upload it to
> the printer to bring it back to a working state. I would do the same for
> a troublesome PDF rasteriser. I see no difference between doing that and
> getting an hplip plugin to have the printer (or scanner) working at its
> full potential.
>

I'm just a little antsy about having the unknown executable residing on 
my system drive. I just don't see why they felt they had to *design* the 
danged thing to work this way. It reeks of someone trying to get his toe 
in the door.

The firmware that resides in various places within the device itself at 
least has to restrict itself to interacting with the computer via the 
protocols used for printing, no? But the blob that resides on the system 
drive gets executed by the OS. Seems a tad too intimate for my taste.

It may simply be my ignorance which compels me to feel this way, but -- 
after all -- if I know that I'm ignorant of the possibilities, why 
shouldn't I be cautious? Yesteryear's printers and scanners had plenty 
enough features to suit me and didn't require the blob. I'd like to find 
a blobless wonder that will simply do what I need.

Funny thing, apropos of nothing, I remember the last time I installed an 
MFP on a Windows machine at a friend's behest. Without so much as a by 
your leave, the installation DVD put 1.5 gigabytes of software on the 
target machine. (This was the "minimal" install. It was bigger than the 
OS, for pity's sake!) I checked the process list and found that it had 
started 11 services. Yes. 11. Without. Asking. What the...

I feel the need to go back to my shed in western Kansas with my '56 
Buick Special and my land line and my three static-filled TV stations.

Best,
JP

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#174899

On Sat 19 Nov 2016 at 13:16:57 -0500, Jape Person wrote:

> On 11/19/2016 10:55 AM, Brian wrote:
> >
> >Why is it important for the printer to be blobless? Look at it this way:
> >
> >A printer is choc-a-bloc full of firmware. None of this firmware is
> >accessible to a user, even if something like an interpreter is based on
> >an open standard such as PostScript. Indeed, there may be a rasteriser
> >which itself uses a proprietary format such as URF.
> >
> >Suppose there are some bugs in the firmware; for example, the AirPrint
> >facility ceases to work reliably with an i-device. This has happened in
> >the past and the manufacturer provided a binary blob to fix it. What
> >would you do?
> >
> >Ok, I'll tell you what I would do. I would get the blob and upload it to
> >the printer to bring it back to a working state. I would do the same for
> >a troublesome PDF rasteriser. I see no difference between doing that and
> >getting an hplip plugin to have the printer (or scanner) working at its
> >full potential.
> >
> 
> I'm just a little antsy about having the unknown executable residing on my
> system drive. I just don't see why they felt they had to *design* the danged
> thing to work this way. It reeks of someone trying to get his toe in the
> door.
> 
> The firmware that resides in various places within the device itself at
> least has to restrict itself to interacting with the computer via the
> protocols used for printing, no? But the blob that resides on the system
> drive gets executed by the OS. Seems a tad too intimate for my taste.
> 
> It may simply be my ignorance which compels me to feel this way, but --
> after all -- if I know that I'm ignorant of the possibilities, why shouldn't
> I be cautious? Yesteryear's printers and scanners had plenty enough features
> to suit me and didn't require the blob. I'd like to find a blobless wonder
> that will simply do what I need.

Another practical aspect is that the host-based plugin adds another
layer to the printing process. Bugs in it which turn a functioning
printer into a non-functioning printer are not unknown. Ok, they get
fixed but meanwhile.......

You have this one definite requirement and will have to firm up what
else you definitely want. I'll mention the HP OfficeJet Pro 8720
All-in-One Printer. It is relatively inexpensive, deals in PCL 3 and
has AirPrint. An interesting aspect of it is that it is claimed to be
an IPP Everywhere printer, meaning you need no drivers on the machine
you are printing from. But it is an inkjet.

-- 
Brian.

> 
> Funny thing, apropos of nothing, I remember the last time I installed an MFP
> on a Windows machine at a friend's behest. Without so much as a by your
> leave, the installation DVD put 1.5 gigabytes of software on the target
> machine. (This was the "minimal" install. It was bigger than the OS, for
> pity's sake!) I checked the process list and found that it had started 11
> services. Yes. 11. Without. Asking. What the...
> 
> I feel the need to go back to my shed in western Kansas with my '56 Buick
> Special and my land line and my three static-filled TV stations.
> 
> Best,
> JP
> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#174904

On 11/19/2016 02:47 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 19 Nov 2016 at 13:16:57 -0500, Jape Person wrote:
>
>> On 11/19/2016 10:55 AM, Brian wrote:
>>>
>>> Why is it important for the printer to be blobless? Look at it this way:
>>>
>>> A printer is choc-a-bloc full of firmware. None of this firmware is
>>> accessible to a user, even if something like an interpreter is based on
>>> an open standard such as PostScript. Indeed, there may be a rasteriser
>>> which itself uses a proprietary format such as URF.
>>>
>>> Suppose there are some bugs in the firmware; for example, the AirPrint
>>> facility ceases to work reliably with an i-device. This has happened in
>>> the past and the manufacturer provided a binary blob to fix it. What
>>> would you do?
>>>
>>> Ok, I'll tell you what I would do. I would get the blob and upload it to
>>> the printer to bring it back to a working state. I would do the same for
>>> a troublesome PDF rasteriser. I see no difference between doing that and
>>> getting an hplip plugin to have the printer (or scanner) working at its
>>> full potential.
>>>
>>
>> I'm just a little antsy about having the unknown executable residing on my
>> system drive. I just don't see why they felt they had to *design* the danged
>> thing to work this way. It reeks of someone trying to get his toe in the
>> door.
>>
>> The firmware that resides in various places within the device itself at
>> least has to restrict itself to interacting with the computer via the
>> protocols used for printing, no? But the blob that resides on the system
>> drive gets executed by the OS. Seems a tad too intimate for my taste.
>>
>> It may simply be my ignorance which compels me to feel this way, but --
>> after all -- if I know that I'm ignorant of the possibilities, why shouldn't
>> I be cautious? Yesteryear's printers and scanners had plenty enough features
>> to suit me and didn't require the blob. I'd like to find a blobless wonder
>> that will simply do what I need.
>
> Another practical aspect is that the host-based plugin adds another
> layer to the printing process. Bugs in it which turn a functioning
> printer into a non-functioning printer are not unknown. Ok, they get
> fixed but meanwhile.......
>
> You have this one definite requirement and will have to firm up what
> else you definitely want. I'll mention the HP OfficeJet Pro 8720
> All-in-One Printer. It is relatively inexpensive, deals in PCL 3 and
> has AirPrint. An interesting aspect of it is that it is claimed to be
> an IPP Everywhere printer, meaning you need no drivers on the machine
> you are printing from. But it is an inkjet.
>
Yes, thanks. I suppose I'll just have to go with an MFP that uses inkjet 
instead of laser. It think it's curious that you can get a single 
function Color LaserJet from HP that doesn't require the driver plugin. 
You can get an OfficePro MFP which doesn't require the driver plugin. 
But you can't get a single function scanner which doesn't require the 
driver plugin.

I wanted a laser printer. I wanted a scanner. I didn't want an inkjet or 
the driver plugin. There currently seems to be no way to accomplish this 
exact set of specs. The closest I can come, I guess, is to buy a laser 
printer and an inkjet MFP and just not use the inkjet printer portion of 
the MFP.

Your suggestion of the 8720 or one of its close relatives is probably 
the best I can do with HP. I appreciate your help on this, Brian.

Regards,
JP

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175405

On Sat 19 Nov 2016 at 16:14:45 -0500, Jape Person wrote:

> On 11/19/2016 02:47 PM, Brian wrote:
> >
> >You have this one definite requirement and will have to firm up what
> >else you definitely want. I'll mention the HP OfficeJet Pro 8720
> >All-in-One Printer. It is relatively inexpensive, deals in PCL 3 and
> >has AirPrint. An interesting aspect of it is that it is claimed to be
> >an IPP Everywhere printer, meaning you need no drivers on the machine
> >you are printing from. But it is an inkjet.
> >
> Yes, thanks. I suppose I'll just have to go with an MFP that uses inkjet
> instead of laser. It think it's curious that you can get a single function
> Color LaserJet from HP that doesn't require the driver plugin. You can get
> an OfficePro MFP which doesn't require the driver plugin. But you can't get
> a single function scanner which doesn't require the driver plugin.
> 
> I wanted a laser printer. I wanted a scanner. I didn't want an inkjet or the
> driver plugin. There currently seems to be no way to accomplish this exact
> set of specs. The closest I can come, I guess, is to buy a laser printer and
> an inkjet MFP and just not use the inkjet printer portion of the MFP.
> 
> Your suggestion of the 8720 or one of its close relatives is probably the
> best I can do with HP. I appreciate your help on this, Brian.

So, in the end, you went for a Brother MFC-9340CDW. Looks a nice machine
but as was said in a previous mail of mine (resent to the list due to
feline frollicking) this doesn't get you off square one if you use the
Brother printer drivers. Ok, there are PCL6 and PostScript emulations on
the device so a generic PPD (missing access to some of the printer's
functionality) could be used. At about 350 GBP for the device though,
I'd want my money's worth.

Now for the good news. Your printer does AirPrint. An AirPrint printer
has to accept data in the Apple Raster Format (URF) and CUPS 2.2.2 has
support for sending Apple Raster to a printer. cups-browsed 1.12.0 has
adjusted its CreateIPPPrinterQueues directive to take account of this:

 http://bzr.linuxfoundation.org/loggerhead/openprinting/cups-filters/annotate/head:/utils/cups-browsed.conf.5

Problem also solved for any HP AirPrint capable machines which uses a
plugin.

-- 
Brian.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175449

On 12/04/2016 01:50 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 19 Nov 2016 at 16:14:45 -0500, Jape Person wrote:
>
>> On 11/19/2016 02:47 PM, Brian wrote:
>>>
>>> You have this one definite requirement and will have to firm up what
>>> else you definitely want. I'll mention the HP OfficeJet Pro 8720
>>> All-in-One Printer. It is relatively inexpensive, deals in PCL 3 and
>>> has AirPrint. An interesting aspect of it is that it is claimed to be
>>> an IPP Everywhere printer, meaning you need no drivers on the machine
>>> you are printing from. But it is an inkjet.
>>>
>> Yes, thanks. I suppose I'll just have to go with an MFP that uses inkjet
>> instead of laser. It think it's curious that you can get a single function
>> Color LaserJet from HP that doesn't require the driver plugin. You can get
>> an OfficePro MFP which doesn't require the driver plugin. But you can't get
>> a single function scanner which doesn't require the driver plugin.
>>
>> I wanted a laser printer. I wanted a scanner. I didn't want an inkjet or the
>> driver plugin. There currently seems to be no way to accomplish this exact
>> set of specs. The closest I can come, I guess, is to buy a laser printer and
>> an inkjet MFP and just not use the inkjet printer portion of the MFP.
>>
>> Your suggestion of the 8720 or one of its close relatives is probably the
>> best I can do with HP. I appreciate your help on this, Brian.
>
> So, in the end, you went for a Brother MFC-9340CDW. Looks a nice machine
> but as was said in a previous mail of mine (resent to the list due to
> feline frollicking) this doesn't get you off square one if you use the
> Brother printer drivers. Ok, there are PCL6 and PostScript emulations on
> the device so a generic PPD (missing access to some of the printer's
> functionality) could be used. At about 350 GBP for the device though,
> I'd want my money's worth.
>
> Now for the good news. Your printer does AirPrint. An AirPrint printer
> has to accept data in the Apple Raster Format (URF) and CUPS 2.2.2 has
> support for sending Apple Raster to a printer. cups-browsed 1.12.0 has
> adjusted its CreateIPPPrinterQueues directive to take account of this:
>
>  http://bzr.linuxfoundation.org/loggerhead/openprinting/cups-filters/annotate/head:/utils/cups-browsed.conf.5
>
> Problem also solved for any HP AirPrint capable machines which uses a
> plugin.
>

Yup, the research I did led me to believe that I can do anything I need 
to do without the proprietary drivers. If I can't get scanning via FOSS 
drivers in Debian I can use the scanning function through my wife's 
Android devices. (At last the things will be useful! Tee-hee!)

The Brother was cheaper than any of the comparable HP MFCs that I found, 
and I decided that it was time for some experimentation.

One downside is the inability to upgrade firmware on the printer without 
a system running the Mac OS or Windows. I guess if I ever really need a 
firmware update I can borrow a Windows laptop from a neighbor for a few 
minutes.

Thank you for that link. I'm going to go through that to see if I can 
learn something!

Best,
JP

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#174893

On 11/19/2016 09:30 AM, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2016, Jape Person wrote:
>> What about hplip? Doesn't inclusion of the hp-setup program in hplip sort of
>> violate the spirit of having only FOSS in the main repository when executing
>
> No, it doesn't violate the spirit.  HPLIP is FLOSS, including the
> hp-setup program itself.  The binary blob is minor funcionality as far
> as HPLIP usage is concerned (although it isn't minor functionality for
> the unfortunate onwers of the subset of HP devices that require the
> binary blob to work).
>
> Now, if HPLIP was composed only of the hp-setup program, *and* hp-setup
> was only good for downloading/interfacing to the binary blob in the
> first place (as far as I recall, it does more than that), it would be
> "contrib" material (instead of Debian main material).
>
> That is not true, however.  So, HPLIP belongs in Debian main.  A package
> in main cannot build packages for contrib or non-free (and vice-versa),
> and it doesn't make sense to duplicate the entire HPLIP *source* package
> just to have a neutered-by-patching hp-setup utility in main, and a
> complete one in contrib.

I understand. I may have misunderstood the function of hp-setup. I 
thought it's sole purpose was to install the blob. If it does other 
machinations like taking care of installation / environment settings to 
make an MFP (like the old OfficeJet 6302 I tested last night) work, then 
that would explain why I saw no license agreement.

>> This seems to be a step backward in HP's technical support for open source
>> software. I'm disappointed.
>
> HP's printer division is nowadays very different from the one you might
> know from a decade ago.  You might want to inform yourself better about
> their recent attempts at ink cartridge lockdown, for example.

Ugh! I'm not sure I want to find out! Maybe I don't need a printer. Heh.

>
> Basically, if an HP printer is not a high-end model that has a
> software-driver-less network port that can take PDF/1A directly using
> the IPP protocol natively, I wouldn't recommend it.  If it does, I'd
> still recommend that you get yourself informed about its operational
> costs (ink/toner, replacement fusers and periodic maintenance kit) first
> -- but that is valid for any printer vendor.
>

I will look into this possibility. I may be mistaken, but I think that 
most such printers are "Enterprise" printer, are very expensive, and are 
FCC Class a emitters. I presume it's not kosher for me to use such a 
monster in my condominium. But if I can find one that doesn't wreak 
radio interference havoc or break my budget, that would be a very nice 
alternative. I'd probably be dead before the thing needs a toner 
cartridge replacement! I've got an hp lj1300 that's still on its second 
toner cartridge. Hmmm. For my "new" printer, maybe I should just find a 
way to put that old LaserJet directly on the network.

>> So, does anyone know of a laser MFP (or a separate laser printer and
>> scanner) which I can hook up to my network (preferably wirelessly) and use
>> in Debian testing without violating my planned avoidance of proprietary
>> software and drivers?
>
> I'd like to know that, too.  I need a new home color printer, my
> 10-year-old HP PhotoSmart (blobless) MFP has finally broken down and
> good second-hand parts are not easy to find in Brazil :-(
>

I will certainly respond to this list if I learn anything about blobless 
printing and scanning. I am hoping that HP technical support (I actually 
talked with someone who specializes in supporting Gnu/Linux.) will come 
up with something. He had me send him a list of the distros and 
applications I plan to use to see if he can hook me up with a set of 
simpler drivers for these devices. He even mentioned the pxljr drivers 
(produced by a third party) for the 3200 series Color LaserJets which 
support all features.

Thank you, Henrique!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#174981

On Saturday 19 November 2016 18:02:24 Jape Person wrote:
> For my "new" printer, maybe I should just find a
> way to put that old LaserJet directly on the network.

Install CUPS, client and server, on all the machines on your network, attach 
the printer to one of the machines (a dedicated printer server if you wish), 
and tell CUPS on that machine to share it. 

Or does tahat not count as directly?  I know it works.  I am currently doing 
it with a non-network printer. 

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175370

Hi,

I'm replying to myself at the top of the thread because I saw -- out of 
the corner of my eye -- that there were two recent additions to the thread.

Unfortunately, a) I use POP3 and download all my mail immediately from 
the server, b) my neighbor's Maine Coon cat, Mr. Potay-Toes, just 
visited me and ran all 28 of his toes across my keyboard. (Yes, he's 
polydactyl, and about 25 pounds at that.) Somehow he managed a permanent 
deletion of all the mail I had just downloaded.

These posts were made within the past 12 hours. If the kind people who 
made those posts could be troubled to re-issue them I'd appreciate it. 
Or, at least be aware that I'm not ignoring your messages. I just don't 
have them any more.

Best,
JP

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175376

On Saturday 03 December 2016 18:09:50 Jape Person wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm replying to myself at the top of the thread because I saw -- out of
> the corner of my eye -- that there were two recent additions to the thread.
>
> Unfortunately, a) I use POP3 and download all my mail immediately from
> the server, b) my neighbor's Maine Coon cat, Mr. Potay-Toes, just
> visited me and ran all 28 of his toes across my keyboard. (Yes, he's
> polydactyl, and about 25 pounds at that.) Somehow he managed a permanent
> deletion of all the mail I had just downloaded.
>
> These posts were made within the past 12 hours. If the kind people who
> made those posts could be troubled to re-issue them I'd appreciate it.
> Or, at least be aware that I'm not ignoring your messages. I just don't
> have them any more.
>
> Best,
> JP

You can read them in the archives:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00783.html

And here is another one signed by you:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00842.html

Or the thread itself:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/thrd2.html#00842

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175377

On 12/03/2016 02:20 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Saturday 03 December 2016 18:09:50 Jape Person wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm replying to myself at the top of the thread because I saw -- out of
>> the corner of my eye -- that there were two recent additions to the thread.
>>
>> Unfortunately, a) I use POP3 and download all my mail immediately from
>> the server, b) my neighbor's Maine Coon cat, Mr. Potay-Toes, just
>> visited me and ran all 28 of his toes across my keyboard. (Yes, he's
>> polydactyl, and about 25 pounds at that.) Somehow he managed a permanent
>> deletion of all the mail I had just downloaded.
>>
>> These posts were made within the past 12 hours. If the kind people who
>> made those posts could be troubled to re-issue them I'd appreciate it.
>> Or, at least be aware that I'm not ignoring your messages. I just don't
>> have them any more.
>>
>> Best,
>> JP
>
> You can read them in the archives:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00783.html
>
> And here is another one signed by you:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00842.html
>
> Or the thread itself:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/thrd2.html#00842
>
> Lisi
>
>
Thanks, Lisi, but those parts of the archive didn't contain all of the 
messages. A couple of people in the thread replied directly to me and to 
other participants in the thread as well as to the thread itself. I'm 
guessing they may have used a method that broke the thread. I can't find 
the missing stuff in the archive, but I'm not going to try very hard. I 
have a horrible time reading this stuff through a browser interface.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175396

On Saturday 03 December 2016 20:14:21 Jape Person wrote:
> I
> have a horrible time reading this stuff through a browser interface.

Yes, sorry. :-(  I have a horrible time with archives being illegible in 
browsers - but I thought that that was a problem restricted to the partially 
sighted:  the fully sighted can see them, and I have been told that screen 
readers for the blind can handle them fine.

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175400

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 06:50:17 AM Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Saturday 03 December 2016 20:14:21 Jape Person wrote:
> > I
> > have a horrible time reading this stuff through a browser interface.
> 
> Yes, sorry. :-(  I have a horrible time with archives being illegible in
> browsers - but I thought that that was a problem restricted to the
> partially sighted:  the fully sighted can see them, and I have been told
> that screen readers for the blind can handle them fine.


I'm curious as to what the problem is?  I mean, I don't have much of a 
problem, but I use a legible font and use <ctrl>+ to increase the font size to 
a comfortable size (on my 32" monitor), and the colors are my preferred black 
on a white background (as opposed to a light color on a dark background--
which, among other things, some applications or websites still do some things 
wrong when they interpolate colors for <can't recall the phrase, but when they 
scale fonts>.

The user interface isn't ideal (I mean, too many choices, I imagine a non-
sighted person might get frustrated listening to all the choices).

And, in general, I'd prefer to see several posts from the same thread on one 
page rather than paging for each post....

But, is there something else, and which is the biggest problem for non-sighted 
or partially sighted people?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175404

On Sunday 04 December 2016 14:55:10 rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 04, 2016 06:50:17 AM Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Saturday 03 December 2016 20:14:21 Jape Person wrote:
> > > I
> > > have a horrible time reading this stuff through a browser interface.
> >
> > Yes, sorry. :-(  I have a horrible time with archives being illegible in
> > browsers - but I thought that that was a problem restricted to the
> > partially sighted:  the fully sighted can see them, and I have been told
> > that screen readers for the blind can handle them fine.
>
> I'm curious as to what the problem is?  I mean, I don't have much of a
> problem, but I use a legible font 

Archives tend ot oevr-ride my choice of font.

> and use <ctrl>+ to increase the font size 
> to a comfortable size (on my 32" monitor), and the colors are my preferred
> black on a white background (as opposed to a light color on a dark
> background-- which, among other things, some applications or websites still
> do some things wrong when they interpolate colors for <can't recall the
> phrase, but when they scale fonts>.
>
> The user interface isn't ideal (I mean, too many choices, I imagine a non-
> sighted person might get frustrated listening to all the choices).
>
> And, in general, I'd prefer to see several posts from the same thread on
> one page rather than paging for each post....
>
> But, is there something else, and which is the biggest problem for
> non-sighted or partially sighted people?

That varies from person to person, which makes things difficult for those 
trying to help.  

Speaking personally, I need a denser darker font with much more spacing.  
Making it bigger indeed helps - but not as much as having it in my email 
client and fully controlling the font!  Archives seem to override any 
settings I may have put in my browser, and use a very thin font which i 
cannot succeed in over-riding. 

And I need things broken up and with lots of space.  I achieve this in my 
email client by changing the colour of the bits I don't really need to see, 
and simply not reading large blocks of text.  Archives are harder, but break 
up better sometimes than others - perhaps because of the originating email 
client.

I think the extent of my own expertise, or lack of it, in controlling my 
browser comes into it.  Certainly, having had a good look now, things seem to 
have improved since I last tried do much with archives.  I've changed?  The 
browser has changed??  The archives have changed??  My DTE global controls 
have changed??

Add on the having to click through all the time, which you mention, and it 
becomes a very tedious experience.  But a LOT better than nothing!

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175448

On 12/04/2016 09:55 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 04, 2016 06:50:17 AM Lisi Reisz wrote:
>> On Saturday 03 December 2016 20:14:21 Jape Person wrote:
>>> I
>>> have a horrible time reading this stuff through a browser interface.
>>
>> Yes, sorry. :-(  I have a horrible time with archives being illegible in
>> browsers - but I thought that that was a problem restricted to the
>> partially sighted:  the fully sighted can see them, and I have been told
>> that screen readers for the blind can handle them fine.
>
>
> I'm curious as to what the problem is?  I mean, I don't have much of a
> problem, but I use a legible font and use <ctrl>+ to increase the font size to
> a comfortable size (on my 32" monitor), and the colors are my preferred black
> on a white background (as opposed to a light color on a dark background--
> which, among other things, some applications or websites still do some things
> wrong when they interpolate colors for <can't recall the phrase, but when they
> scale fonts>.
>
> The user interface isn't ideal (I mean, too many choices, I imagine a non-
> sighted person might get frustrated listening to all the choices).
>
> And, in general, I'd prefer to see several posts from the same thread on one
> page rather than paging for each post....
>
> But, is there something else, and which is the biggest problem for non-sighted
> or partially sighted people?
>
>
You've just about summed it up for me. The user interface is far from 
ideal. I'm able to handle selection and size of fonts through browser 
controls, but the horsing around with the archive's links plus eye 
problems that make it very hard for me to read dark text on a light 
background just make the archive too much bother for me.

Yes, I know I can tell some browsers to give me light text on a dark 
background, but that never works as well as the control I have in my 
mail client.

JP

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175488

On Tuesday 06 December 2016 02:51:33 Jape Person wrote:
> Yes, I know I can tell some browsers to give me light text on a dark
> background, but that never works as well as the control I have in my
> mail client.

Out of interest, which do you use?  I need a backup, for when the bit-rot on 
the one I use finally makes it unusable.

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175494

On 12/06/2016 06:50 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 December 2016 02:51:33 Jape Person wrote:
>> Yes, I know I can tell some browsers to give me light text on a dark
>> background, but that never works as well as the control I have in my
>> mail client.
>
> Out of interest, which do you use?  I need a backup, for when the bit-rot on
> the one I use finally makes it unusable.
>
> Lisi
>
>
Hi, Lisi.

I rotate through Lynx, Links2, W3M, Xombrero, Conkeror, Firefox, and 
Torbrowser (Firefox over the Tor network). They all have their pitfalls.

I think that browsers are -- far and away -- the worst software in 
common use. They're just terrible. Yes, I know that they have to cope 
with a lot out there on the Internet. But if you have to evaluate 
software on its fitness for use, and that use is the Internet, then 
browsers are just plain lousy at their jobs.

I'll never forget hearing someone trying to prop an early version of 
Netscape up by saying that it was a good browser *because* it failed on 
badly written pages. I reminded the Netscape defender that the spec 
indicated that browser were supposed to do their best to render whatever 
was given to them without crashing.

But many browsers are so awful that sometimes I just wish that they 
would just go ahead and crash. I find that browsers are also the worst 
software in cooperating with dark themes on the desktop. This seems 
especially true wrt trying to distinguish text from background in forms 
that I'm filling out online.

I would say that Conkeror is my favorite right now. But there's a 
learning curve, related partially to its Emacs-like command key 
combinations and structure. I was comfortable with it right away. My 
wife won't touch it. But it's very fast and reliable.

I find that taste in browsers and editors is really particular to the 
user. What I absolutely hate you may adore. But maybe one of those may 
be useful to you.

Good luck!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175498

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 07/12/16 14:42, Jape Person wrote:
> I'll never forget hearing someone trying to prop an early version of
> Netscape up by saying that it was a good browser *because* it failed on
> badly written pages.

It shouldn't crash, of course, but I think the web would be a much nicer
place if browsers just refused to render broken pages, rather than
potentially displaying them in a misleading way.

That's one of the reason I'm sad xhtml seems to have been at least
partly abandoned - the rules of xml say you should just give up if it
isn't valid. That would mean web devs would have to fix their mess.

Richard

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175513

On 12/07/2016 02:52 AM, Richard Hector wrote:
> On 07/12/16 14:42, Jape Person wrote:
>> I'll never forget hearing someone trying to prop an early version of
>> Netscape up by saying that it was a good browser *because* it failed on
>> badly written pages.
>
> It shouldn't crash, of course, but I think the web would be a much nicer
> place if browsers just refused to render broken pages, rather than
> potentially displaying them in a misleading way.
>

I don't disagree. But it kind of depends on the "message". I have more 
sympathy for a "cause" site that's having issues because the unpaid, 
unschooled Web designer just screwed up a table than I have for a 
commercial site that's causing a browser seizure because the designer 
tried to put 240 ads on one page.

If the message is important, the browser needs to present it to the user.

But commercial Web sites these days are their own worst enemy. I can't 
tell you how many sites I've blacklisted because they exasperated me 
enough to cause my (figurative) trigger finger to start itching.

My favorite is the site that's trying to sell me something, but which 
makes the process so arduous because of all of the popups I have to 
dismiss or illogical link loops that I have to traverse that I finally 
just close the browser and buy from someone else. That's happened to me 
twice lately. I'm looking at you Dell and HP. (And these two are far 
from the worst offenders.)

If browsers were to be designed to refuse to display junky pages, it 
would also be nice if they could somehow send data about that failure to 
the site owner -- perhaps through judicious use of whois(?).

If browsers of that type launched a daily DDoS of sorts on the site 
owners' mailboxes with complaints about their crappy sites, maybe a few 
of them would fix their monstrosities. But I've written many sites 
personally and have received only one or two replies in decades.

> That's one of the reason I'm sad xhtml seems to have been at least
> partly abandoned - the rules of xml say you should just give up if it
> isn't valid. That would mean web devs would have to fix their mess.
>
> Richard
>
>

I fear that browsers which refused to display the crapola would simply 
not be used by the masses. Most people just don't care about (or are 
oblivious to) the junkiness of our environment.

Every day I see people fiddling with "smartphones" instead of taking 
care of business (or just staying alive on the road). If you ask those 
people what they're doing, they'll tell you that they're taking care of 
business. But what they're really doing is swiping repeatedly with their 
fingers to try to get a badly designed, recalcitrant user interface to 
launch their gee-gaw ap.

I spent well over thirty years threatening dismemberment to people who 
tried to touch my visual interface. Now the single most "important" 
gadget in the lives of most people is a device which requires the user 
to smudge that interface. To this curmudgeon, someone who fiddles with 
one of these gadgets while s/he's missing the ballgame looks like an idiot.

We've always been the same. Far too many of us are easily distracted by 
irrelevant detritus. Sixty years ago practically every roadside in the 
country was plastered with billboards. People were dying on occasion 
because they were turning their heads to read the cute little serial 
Burma Shave signs. (They were kind of like the road sign equivalent of a 
popup.)

Lady Bird Johnson made it her mission in life to clean up our "user 
interface". She did a nice job of it, but we've recently started letting 
the sign-makers encroach on the environment again. Bless you Lady Bird. 
I love you for trying.

We'll never learn.

;-)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175378

On Sat 03 Dec 2016 at 19:20:18 +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Saturday 03 December 2016 18:09:50 Jape Person wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm replying to myself at the top of the thread because I saw -- out of
> > the corner of my eye -- that there were two recent additions to the thread.
> >
> > Unfortunately, a) I use POP3 and download all my mail immediately from
> > the server, b) my neighbor's Maine Coon cat, Mr. Potay-Toes, just
> > visited me and ran all 28 of his toes across my keyboard. (Yes, he's
> > polydactyl, and about 25 pounds at that.) Somehow he managed a permanent
> > deletion of all the mail I had just downloaded.
> >
> > These posts were made within the past 12 hours. If the kind people who
> > made those posts could be troubled to re-issue them I'd appreciate it.
> > Or, at least be aware that I'm not ignoring your messages. I just don't
> > have them any more.
> >
> > Best,
> > JP
> 
> You can read them in the archives:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00783.html
> 
> And here is another one signed by you:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00842.html
> 
> Or the thread itself:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/thrd2.html#00842

Eminently sensible. as usual. Replete with information and guidance.
The advice cannot be faulted.

But has any thought been given to the cat's feelings? It must be
suffering terrible pangs of regret and remorse. I do not think we
should put it through any more humiliation than it has suffered
already after realising it had inadvertantly deleted one of my
mails.

Just don't let it get anywhere near apt cat /dev/zero > ...

-- 
Debian - the Universal Opurrating System.
Brian.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#175379

On 12/03/2016 03:20 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 03 Dec 2016 at 19:20:18 +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
>
>> On Saturday 03 December 2016 18:09:50 Jape Person wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm replying to myself at the top of the thread because I saw --
>>> out of the corner of my eye -- that there were two recent
>>> additions to the thread.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, a) I use POP3 and download all my mail immediately
>>> from the server, b) my neighbor's Maine Coon cat, Mr. Potay-Toes,
>>> just visited me and ran all 28 of his toes across my keyboard.
>>> (Yes, he's polydactyl, and about 25 pounds at that.) Somehow he
>>> managed a permanent deletion of all the mail I had just
>>> downloaded.
>>>
>>> These posts were made within the past 12 hours. If the kind
>>> people who made those posts could be troubled to re-issue them
>>> I'd appreciate it. Or, at least be aware that I'm not ignoring
>>> your messages. I just don't have them any more.
>>>
>>> Best, JP
>>
>> You can read them in the archives:
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00783.html
>>
>> And here is another one signed by you:
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/msg00842.html
>>
>> Or the thread itself:
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/11/thrd2.html#00842
>
> Eminently sensible. as usual. Replete with information and guidance.
> The advice cannot be faulted.
>
> But has any thought been given to the cat's feelings? It must be
> suffering terrible pangs of regret and remorse. I do not think we
> should put it through any more humiliation than it has suffered
> already after realising it had inadvertantly deleted one of my
> mails.
>
> Just don't let it get anywhere near apt cat /dev/zero > ...
>

The cat has expressed no remorse and, in fact, appears to be completely 
satisfied with himself. When he visits he interposes himself between me 
and my keyboard, countering every typing move with a ploy for physical 
attention.

Interestingly enough, this interference usually results in my messages 
containing fewer typos, probably because I have to be very deliberate in 
my efforts.

The creature is amazingly strong and agile, qualities which may have 
been enhanced by his almost continuous practice of tai cheese.

Oh well, no business shall be accomplished today.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web