Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #167248 > unrolled thread

[OT]: May Day

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

Contents

  [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-30 20:50 +0200
    Re: [OT]: May Day Hans Vogelsberger <li.vog@schwaz.net> - 2016-05-01 14:40 +0200
      Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@googlemail.com> - 2016-05-01 15:10 +0200
      Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 15:30 +0200
        Re: [OT]: May Day Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2016-05-01 18:20 +0200
          Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 19:10 +0200
            Re: [OT]: May Day Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 19:20 +0200
              Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 19:50 +0200
                Re: [OT]: May Day Dan Hitt <dan.hitt@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 20:00 +0200
                  Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 01:30 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:30 +0200
                      Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-03 15:40 +0200
                      Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:40 +0200
                        Re: [OT]: May Day Glenn Holmer <cenbe@kolabnow.com> - 2016-05-03 15:40 +0200
                        Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 18:30 +0200
                Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 20:10 +0200
                  Re: [OT]: May Day "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-05-01 20:20 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 21:40 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 22:00 +0200
                      Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-01 23:40 +0200
                        Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2016-05-02 00:00 +0200
          Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 16:20 +0200
      Re: [OT]: May Day Haines Brown <haines@histomat.net> - 2016-05-01 20:30 +0200
        Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 16:20 +0200
          Re: [OT]: May Day "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-05-02 18:10 +0200
            Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 20:20 +0200
              Re: [OT]: May Day "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-05-02 21:10 +0200
      Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 16:10 +0200
        Re: [OT]: May Day Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 16:20 +0200
          Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 19:40 +0200
            Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-02 19:50 +0200
              Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 20:40 +0200
                Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-02 22:00 +0200
            Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2016-05-02 20:30 +0200
              Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-02 22:00 +0200
                Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2016-05-03 01:00 +0200
                  Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 14:40 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-05-03 15:10 +0200
                      Re: [OT]: May Day Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:30 +0200
                    Re: [OT]: May Day Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2016-05-03 20:40 +0200

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#167333

On Sun, 01 May 2016 16:29:40 -0500
John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:

> Lisi writes:
> > But New Zealand and the Isle of Man (sorry, I have been spelling it
> > wrongly) both antedate Finland in granting full suffrage, and New
> > Zealand's was unrestricted - but of course it was not independent.  So
> > we either have to allow both Finland and New Zealand, when New Zealand
> > wins, or disallow both, on the grounds that they were not independent.
> 
> Besides, if you allow them despite not being fully sovereign you have to
> allow Wyoming, which beats them both.

And let's not forget the picturesque Pitcairn islands, which beat
Wyoming by some 30 years ;)

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

... The prejudices people feel about each other disappear when they get
to know each other.
		-- Kirk, "Elaan of Troyius", stardate 4372.5

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167359

On 01.05.2016 18:39, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2016 01 May 08:23 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
>> Hans Vogelsberger writes:
>>> Why workers only? There are other humans, too.
>> Class struggle.
> I struggled to pay attention in social studies class way back in grade
> school 40+ years ago.  Does that count?
>
> ;-)
>
> Happy May Day from the workers paradise of a muddy farm somewhere in
> northern Kansas.
>
> - Nate
>

And special Best Wishes come to — Nate from Kansas!

[a soft but energetic banjo music slowly fade in in the background]


Thanks, Nate! )


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167317

On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 02:26:18PM +0200, Hans Vogelsberger wrote:
> Am Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:49:06 +0300
> schrieb Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com>:
> 
> > Congratulations with International Worker's Day to all the working
> > (in FOSS industry and at all) people! )
> > Have a nice day!
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Dmitry Piyavkin
> > 
> 
> Why workers only? There are other humans, too.

Obviously Dmitry refers to working-class internationalism, not the
ancient Roman May Day celebration in honor of the goddess of flowers.

Although a gross simplification, workers don't own means of production,
and so their gains depend on social solidarity. He apparently sees FOSS
as an example of where cooperation pays off.

The owners of the means of production gain instead from competition or
monopoly. I suppose they would argue that it is competition between
owners of proprietary software that best explains its development. They
are naturally hostile to FOSS.

Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that FOSS is crypto-socialist.

Haines
 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167360

On 01.05.2016 21:27, Haines Brown wrote:
> Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that FOSS is crypto-socialist. Haines 

No, but it is new growing relations of production.


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167377

Hi,

Haines Brown wrote:
> > Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that FOSS is crypto-socialist.

Piyavkin wrote:
> No, but it is new growing relations of production.

It's in no way crypto, but quite near to the vision of Karl Marx in the
19th century. He expected it to happen for classic economy after
socialism succeeded and evolved into true communism.

Google found me a nice summary in german language:
  http://stattkapitalismus.blogsport.de/2008/11/12/665jeder-nach-seinen-faehigkeiten-jedem-nach-seinen-beduerfnissen/
which is obviously by a person not aware of free software.
It quotes Marx' book "Das Kapital", 1867:
"Stellen wir uns endlich, zur Abwechslung, einen Verein freier Menschen
 vor, ..."
which i translate as:
"Let us imagine finally, just for a change, a club of free humans, who
 work with commonly used means of production and self-confidently spend
 their many individual powers of work as a united work effort for society.
 [...] The result of the club's work is a product of society.
 In part it serves in turn as means of production. Another part is
 consumed by the members as subsistence."

He did not imagine highly valuable objects which can be copied at
nearly no cost and can be used by affordable means. He only predicts that
the relation between production and consumption will change but then goes
on to describe a non-communist structure of work merits and right to
consume.
In our world, even Linus Torvalds gets more from GNU/Linux than he gave.

Marx also did not imagine that a (from his view) ideal society would emerge
on top of capitalism rather than replacing it.

In real life i do not get my food for free. Housing is expensive.
Even the preconditions for linuxing cost monthly money.
But during my life there were only a few months of what i'd call work.
I earn my keep by selling myself doing my favorite sports.
Nevertheless i am aware that i am swimming as grease drop on a watery soup
of hardship and boredom.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167388

On 02.05.2016 19:05, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Haines Brown wrote:
>>> Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that FOSS is crypto-socialist.
> Piyavkin wrote:
>> No, but it is new growing relations of production.
> It's in no way crypto, but quite near to the vision of Karl Marx in the
> 19th century. He expected it to happen for classic economy after
> socialism succeeded and evolved into true communism.
>
> Google found me a nice summary in german language:
>    http://stattkapitalismus.blogsport.de/2008/11/12/665jeder-nach-seinen-faehigkeiten-jedem-nach-seinen-beduerfnissen/
> which is obviously by a person not aware of free software.
> It quotes Marx' book "Das Kapital", 1867:
> "Stellen wir uns endlich, zur Abwechslung, einen Verein freier Menschen
>   vor, ..."
> which i translate as:
> "Let us imagine finally, just for a change, a club of free humans, who
>   work with commonly used means of production and self-confidently spend
>   their many individual powers of work as a united work effort for society.
>   [...] The result of the club's work is a product of society.
>   In part it serves in turn as means of production. Another part is
>   consumed by the members as subsistence."
>
> He did not imagine highly valuable objects which can be copied at
> nearly no cost and can be used by affordable means. He only predicts that
> the relation between production and consumption will change but then goes
> on to describe a non-communist structure of work merits and right to
> consume.
> In our world, even Linus Torvalds gets more from GNU/Linux than he gave.
>
> Marx also did not imagine that a (from his view) ideal society would emerge
> on top of capitalism rather than replacing it.

Have you said «Karl Marx»?!.. Oh, no!.. Lisi will get you! )


If be serious, such changes are going on not only in software industry. 
And I don't think it'll be finished even in the near future which may be 
surprising in the end. That is a long and incremental process. But it is 
a huge subject to discuss in an OT thread in a mail list. Such subjects 
should be debated in form of articles in academic manner, I believe [but 
try to rise the subject in an economics community, and their political 
police will get you too].
Though it may be interesting for you to look also at the Schumpeter's 
theory of development. He's usually considered as an opponent to Marx, 
but their theories in fact pretty complimentary.

> In real life i do not get my food for free. Housing is expensive.
> Even the preconditions for linuxing cost monthly money.
> But during my life there were only a few months of what i'd call work.
> I earn my keep by selling myself doing my favorite sports.
> Nevertheless i am aware that i am swimming as grease drop on a watery soup
> of hardship and boredom.

Why don't you consider prof sport activity as a labour? Especially if 
you earn by that. What's the sports, by the way?

As to hardship and boredom: first is an objective condition, second is a 
subjective attitude and, in my view, should be avoided as deadly sin 
whatever situation you happened to be in. Life is too damn short to be 
bored.

> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>

Best wishes to you too!


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167393

Hi,

Piyavkin wrote:
> Have you said «Karl Marx»?!.. Oh, no!.. Lisi will get you! )

I quote him as sincere contributor to political and economical theory.
Everybody, who pays Value Added Tax, pays for a thing invented by Marx:
The Added Value which - according to his theory - goes into the pockets
of the capital owner. (Thus the consumer pays a tax on it.)

Charlie was not the bad guy in the history of real existing socialism.
He had no power to defend. So he needed no oppression mechanisms.


> What's the sports, by the way?

Programming in C. :))
(A relative of Snooker and Chess. It can be quite exhausting.)


> As to hardship and boredom:

It's what gets paid according to classical protestant work ethics.
(According to the bible it is the penalty for eating apples.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167357

On 01.05.2016 15:26, Hans Vogelsberger wrote:
> Am Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:49:06 +0300
> schrieb Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com>:
>
>> Congratulations with International Worker's Day to all the working
>> (in FOSS industry and at all) people! )
>> Have a nice day!
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Dmitry Piyavkin
>>
> Why workers only? There are other humans, too.
>

Hans, I've actually addressed all good people, since wast majority of 
the humankind (up to 99%, I guess, except classes of professional 
parasites and criminals) lives by working and serving other's in some 
useful social roles. And actually do not counterpose but complement each 
other. I've consciously said «working people», including here all labour 
classes.

Yeah, I understand that it sounds funny and the humankind doesn't even 
hear me, because I have no my own mass media (and the access to the 
carefully cultivated and formed mass consciousness). I've just sent my 
best wishes on the occasion to those who can hear me, can accept it and 
bounce back. End of story.


And, yeah, I have absolutely nothing at all against any goddess of 
flowers, especially if some come my way in a nice sunny May day.



Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167362

On Monday 02 May 2016 15:07:29 Piyavkin wrote:
> professional
> parasites

OUCH!  Can we keep politics out of this - be it far left or far right?  This 
list is not the place.

Lisi

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167381

On 02.05.2016 17:16, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Monday 02 May 2016 15:07:29 Piyavkin wrote:
>> professional
>> parasites
> OUCH!  Can we keep politics out of this - be it far left or far right?  This
> list is not the place.
>
> Lisi
>

Hi, Lisi!

Actually, I'm not intended to elaborate the o-topic any further beyond 
the Worker's Day congratulations.

And by mentioned «professional parasites and criminals» I meant in the 
first place exactly those people who live by criminal, fraud, deception, 
and literally at other's expense. Which is by definition a description 
of lumpen-proletariat (declassified) stratum.

But, I wonder, /whom/ exactly did you bear in mind when you triggered 
«politics detection» alert at words «professional parasites»? ) ...Ouch!


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167383

Piyavkin writes:
> But, I wonder, /whom/ exactly did you bear in mind when you triggered
> «politics detection» alert at words «professional parasites»? )
> ...Ouch!

Politicians, most likely.  All of them.  It's not true, of course.  Many
of them are amateur parasites.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167392

On 02.05.2016 20:48, John Hasler wrote:
> Piyavkin writes:
>> But, I wonder, /whom/ exactly did you bear in mind when you triggered
>> «politics detection» alert at words «professional parasites»? )
>> ...Ouch!
> Politicians, most likely.  All of them.  It's not true, of course.  Many
> of them are amateur parasites.

No way, John! Why you say such about those noble and worthy gentlemen?
Lisi may not think like that!


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167397

Piyavkin writes:
> Why you say such about those noble and worthy gentlemen?

Well, of course, the epithet applies only to politicians in the other
parties.  The ones in mine are all noble and worthy gentlemen selflessly
dedicated to the Cause.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167389

On Mon, 2 May 2016 20:32:17 +0300
Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> wrote:

> And by mentioned «professional parasites and criminals» I meant in the 
> first place exactly those people who live by criminal, fraud,
> deception, and literally at other's expense. Which is by definition a
> description of lumpen-proletariat (declassified) stratum.

One could however very well argue that your above definition applies
much better to a certain kind of economically very successful people than
to what you call "lumpen-proletariat".
I would by the way strongly request to dismiss the use of the word
"parasite" when speaking about human beings, since  - speaking frankly -
this sounds a lot like nazi-speech, though I of course don't want to
insinuate that anything like that was intended by you. Maybe it is just
that here in germany my ears are more sensitive to this kind of speech.

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Respect is a rational process
		-- McCoy, "The Galileo Seven", stardate 2822.3

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167398

Michael Lange writes:
> I would by the way strongly request to dismiss the use of the word
> "parasite" when speaking about human beings, since - speaking frankly
> - this sounds a lot like nazi-speech

So does any classification of people into "them" and "us".
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167400

On Mon, 02 May 2016 14:52:26 -0500
John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:

> Michael Lange writes:
> > I would by the way strongly request to dismiss the use of the word
> > "parasite" when speaking about human beings, since - speaking frankly
> > - this sounds a lot like nazi-speech
> 
> So does any classification of people into "them" and "us".

To some extent, but I feel classifying people into "us humans" and "them
animals" is even a lot worse.

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

No one wants war.
		-- Kirk, "Errand of Mercy", stardate 3201.7

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167425

On 03.05.2016 01:50, Michael Lange wrote:
> On Mon, 02 May 2016 14:52:26 -0500
> John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael Lange writes:
>>> I would by the way strongly request to dismiss the use of the word
>>> "parasite" when speaking about human beings, since - speaking frankly
>>> - this sounds a lot like nazi-speech
>> So does any classification of people into "them" and "us".
> To some extent, but I feel classifying people into "us humans" and "them
> animals" is even a lot worse.
>
> Regards
>
> Michael
>
> .-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.
>
> No one wants war.
> 		-- Kirk, "Errand of Mercy", stardate 3201.7
>
> .

You're right. I've already sent to Pablo Escobar and to local criminal 
lords my letters with apologies. Explaining that since using «bad words» 
is being a nazi, we shouldn't call them criminals and parasites anymore. 
Now they should be named «socially handicapable alternative 
entrepreneurs». Someone of them has sent me back a sample sachet with a 
diacetylmorphine, and now I've got to go. Gonna to be busy for a while.


Michael, let's call Voldemort — Voldemort and do not profane serious 
things with silly word playing games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc



For your information:

/American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition/
parasite —
a. One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others 
without making any useful return.
b. One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.

/Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition/
parasite —
2. a person who habitually lives at the expense of others; sponger
3. (formerly) a sycophant

/Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary/
parasite —
2. a person who receives support or advantage from another without 
giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality 
of others.
3. (esp. in ancient Greece) a person receiving free meals in return for 
amusing conversation or flattery.


The meaning «An organism that lives and feeds on or in an organism of a 
different species and causes harm to its host» in most dictionaries 
marked as special term of Biology. Which is probably derivative from 
traditional uses cited above (because biology is a relatively young 
science). And we even didn't discussed any biological subject to do such 
leaps in interpretations, we talked literally about those who «receives 
from others without giving any useful or proper return».


You may write to the language authorities and explain them your theory 
about Nazi-speech and how to use English properly.


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167426

Piyavkin writes:
> You're right. I've already sent to Pablo Escobar and to local criminal
> lords my letters with apologies. Explaining that since using «bad
> words» is being a nazi, we shouldn't call them criminals and parasites
> anymore.

Then call them criminals.  The word "parasite* usually refers to people
who have committed no crimes but are *in the speaker's opinion*
parasites.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167427

On 03.05.2016 16:05, John Hasler wrote:
> Piyavkin writes:
>> You're right. I've already sent to Pablo Escobar and to local criminal
>> lords my letters with apologies. Explaining that since using «bad
>> words» is being a nazi, we shouldn't call them criminals and parasites
>> anymore.
> Then call them criminals.  The word "parasite* usually refers to people
> who have committed no crimes but are *in the speaker's opinion*
> parasites.

I do. Please, reread.


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#167443

On Tue, 3 May 2016 15:32:07 +0300
Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> wrote:

> Explaining that since using «bad words» 
> is being a nazi

Just to clarify this again, I never claimed that you or anyone else here
is a nazi.

> For your information:
> 
> /American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition/
> parasite —
> a. One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others 
> without making any useful return.
> b. One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.etc.

(etc.)

Not sure though how these definitions are supposed to match drug lords
like Mr. Escobar or socially disadvantaged and/or outcast people
("lumpenproletariat").

> You may write to the language authorities and explain them your theory 
> about Nazi-speech

Unfortunately this is not a mere theory.
In case you want to learn about nazi-speech, there are sources available
where you can read about people being classified as "parasites" and the
like, e.g.

http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/holo.html

Of course there's also tons of contemporary material, but I
won't provide any links pointing there. In case you really want to read
that kind of stuff, it is certainly easy to discover.

>  and how to use English properly.

I am aware that there may be subtle differences between the english and
german tone of a word like "parasite" and acknowledged that in my first
post.

Since (as several people have already ponited out) this discussion has
gone far off the rail, I consider this thread, as far as I am concerned,
as "closed".

Best regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Even historians fail to learn from history -- they repeat the same
mistakes.
		-- John Gill, "Patterns of Force", stardate 2534.7

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web