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Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode

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  Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode rhkramer@gmail.com - 2024-11-23 21:40 +0100
    Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode rhkramer@gmail.com - 2024-11-23 21:50 +0100
      Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-11-24 00:20 +0100
        Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-11-24 00:40 +0100
          Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode rhkramer@gmail.com - 2024-11-24 15:20 +0100
            Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2024-11-24 19:20 +0100
          Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-11-24 17:50 +0100
            Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-11-24 23:10 +0100
              Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2024-11-25 04:30 +0100
    Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Tom Furie <tom@furie.org.uk> - 2024-11-23 22:00 +0100
      Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode rhkramer@gmail.com - 2024-11-24 18:40 +0100
        Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Tom Furie <tom@furie.org.uk> - 2024-11-24 18:50 +0100
    Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2024-11-23 22:20 +0100
    Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-11-23 23:10 +0100
      Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2024-11-24 10:00 +0100
        Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-11-24 10:20 +0100
        OT: Re: Trolling john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2024-11-24 11:40 +0100
          Re: OT: Re: Trolling Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2024-11-24 17:10 +0100
          Re: OT: Re: Trolling <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-11-24 18:10 +0100
            Re: OT: Re: Trolling Bitfox <hi@bitfox.ddns.net> - 2024-11-24 23:40 +0100
      Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode rhkramer@gmail.com - 2024-11-24 18:30 +0100
        Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info> - 2024-11-24 22:20 +0100
    Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Hans <hans.ullrich@loop.de> - 2024-11-24 10:30 +0100
      Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2024-11-24 12:40 +0100
        Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Hans <hans.ullrich@loop.de> - 2024-11-24 18:10 +0100
          Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2024-11-25 14:30 +0100
          Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-11-25 18:20 +0100
      Re: Linux on a Laptop shipped with Windows 11 in S-mode Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2024-11-24 17:40 +0100

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#274845

Thanks to all who replied.  With only 4 GB, I'm not interested in that laptop, 
but I was maybe most concerned about S-mode (in Windows).

I assume that would not keep me from installing Linux, I mean, presumably I 
can still get into the BIOS (or the newer (to me) style of BIOS) and load 
Linux from a pendrive or such?

> On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 03:38:56PM -0500, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > I see an attractive deal on a laptop that is shipped with Windows 11 in
> > S-mode (link below).

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#274851

On Monday, 25-11-2024 at 04:29 rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks to all who replied.  With only 4 GB, I'm not interested in that laptop, 


> but I was maybe most concerned about S-mode (in Windows).

Me too.  There are many Windows programs I like to install that I do not want to install from the Windows Store. Going through a Store is a iPad/iPhone, Android thing. I prefer not to use "Stores" as historically, this has not been how Windows was used. Users could source programs from any source. Sadly this can lead to a user installing malicious software. Using a Store has some advantages in providing some form of "vetting" of software that is admitted to the store. This is a security concept, similar to how I (usually) only install programs for Linux from Debian's repositories, and only deviate if the software is well known (e.g. Eclipse). However I always try to remember that "security", is never absolute. No matter how you try, nothing is absolutely secure, but even the weakest security measures add a level of protection. More protection the better. But every thing we do has both positive and negative attributes. Some "Stores" prohibit "sideloading", that is installing software from sources other than the "approved" Store. Only if the burden of applying protection does not outweigh the cost of having the protection, do I support the idea. Debian does not prohibit people from installing software from sources beyond Debian's repositories, and only warn users to be mindful that doing so may cause issues.  (apologies for the rant, I like to be free to "sideload" when I want to)

> 
> I assume that would not keep me from installing Linux, I mean, presumably I 
> can still get into the BIOS (or the newer (to me) style of BIOS) and load 
> Linux from a pendrive or such?

I expect, but of course have not actually tried doing so on this model, that you could install a second drive (i.e. an NVMe) as per the videos on the Internet. And I would expect that Linux could be installed to that drive, and the BIOS updated to boot from the drive.  For example, I expect it would be possible to install a Samsung NVMe, say a 2 TB NVMe, and using Samsung's Data Migration Software, migrate the installed OS from the eMMC to the NVMe, then set the NVMe as the boot drive. Later the soldered on board eMMC could be and repartition/formatted as secondary storage. I can only presume that the laptop's manufacturer went to the expense of including the NVMe socket so people could do this. I think this is a great idea. Just a pity they did not do the same with the RAM.

I would not appreciate trying to use Windows 11 with less that 16 GB of RAM, yet alone with only 4GB of RAM. I did not even know Windows 11 could function in 4GB !

Like you said, the RAM is a limitation for today's world. I expect Debian, would function in 4GB, though it might not be easy. As I reply to this email, my Debian desktop is only using 2.7GB of the 32 GB of RAM in this computer. Once I open four YouTube videos, the memory usage goes to 3.9 GB. Many people leave 10 to 20 tabs open all the time. 

My major concern is the low performance of the CPU. I have used CPUs like this, and in some use cases, the performance is fine, but as soon as you start to push them, the lack of performance becomes obvious (and annoying). 

You mentioned that you wanted to ' to demo some software "on the road" '.  I recall watching someone once "demonstrate" some software on a slow performing laptop, and while it could be seen that the software worked, the lack of performance reflected negatively on said software. I indicated to him that this was not helping promote his software. People easily become annoyed when things run slowly, even if they know it is not directly the software's fault. Please give people the best experience possible so they will feel positive about your software.

George.

> 
> > On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 03:38:56PM -0500, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I see an attractive deal on a laptop that is shipped with Windows 11 in
> > > S-mode (link below).
> 
> 

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#274835

Following the discussion here, iI would like to ask something.

I discovered some small laptops (10 inch and 7 inch), with an Intel N100 
processor,  up to 16 GB RAM and ump to 1 TB disk. But shipped with windows.

2 questions: 

1. Does one have any experience, if the N100 cpu is usable for fluently work? 
These processors are also built in small mini computers.

2., Can debian installed on these laptops or are theire BIOSes mostly dongled 
like on Microsoft Surface tablets and have to be cracked?

If one is interested, what I mean ( I do not want to make an advertisement, so 
I avoid a link), then you can go to www.aliexpress.com and searcfh for 

"8 Zoll 12. Generation P8 N100 Mini-Gaming-Laptop Intel Alder Lake N100 
Touchscreen 12G DDR5 Windows 11 Notebook Yoga Tablet PC 2 in 1"

and there are a lot of sellers.

I intend to use it especially for the daily work, like network analysis, data 
rescue, office and much more. 

It shall run debian, kali-linux, maybe athena-os and (as it is already 
installed) Windows_11. Most important is ruinning debian and kali.

However, the question is: Will the N100 be fast enough for fluently working 
with it? (My comparision is a Fujitsu Lifebook with 8GB and an I5 cpu).

Thanks for any feedback (can be short!)

Best

Hans   

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#274837

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 24.11.2024 14:21, Hans wrote:
> Following the discussion here, iI would like to ask something.
>
> I discovered some small laptops (10 inch and 7 inch), with an Intel N100
> processor,  up to 16 GB RAM and ump to 1 TB disk. But shipped with windows.
>
> 2 questions:
>
> 1. Does one have any experience, if the N100 cpu is usable for fluently work?
> These processors are also built in small mini computers.
Short answer: Not usable.
Long answer:
As a rule of thumb, never trust AliExpress product descriptions.
You have to always look up _specifications_ on Intel official website or 
websites of other vendors.Seller claims this device has N100 CPU [1], 
but in Characteristics section it is actually J4115 [2].
So which is it?
Display resolution 1280*800 means it couldn't be used comfortably by 
today's UI standards and is not significantly better than screen of your 
smartphone.
Notice how none of the reviewers made a photo or screenshot of actual 
hardware specifications detected by OS. More reasons to not trust device 
descriptions or reviews.
There is not a single actual photo of the product, in the description 
section, only 3D modeled edited pictures.
When order is disputed, AliExpress arbitration service will consider 
Characteristics as primary source for specifications, so it will be 
customer's fault in the end and refund could be denied.
In conclusion: It is a *very* overpriced toy, not a device you could 
accomplish any complex work.

If I was in the market for a new "work horse" laptop, I'd search for one 
with at least 14" screen size, with display height resolution of 1080p 
or more.


[1] 
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/231803/intel-processor-n100-6m-cache-up-to-3-40-ghz/specifications.html
[2] 
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/192635/intel-celeron-j4115-processor-4m-cache-up-to-2-50-ghz/specifications.html
-- 

  With kindest regards, Alexander.

  Debian - The universal operating system
  https://www.debian.org

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#274844

Hello Alexander,

thank you very much for your response. 

> Short answer: Not usable.

Hmm, that is a pity. 

> Long answer:
> As a rule of thumb, never trust AliExpress product descriptions.
> You have to always look up _specifications_ on Intel official website or
> websites of other vendors.Seller claims this device has N100 CPU [1],
> but in Characteristics section it is actually J4115 [2].
Does this mean, in real this is not an Intel CPU? I saw these notebooks from 
several different sellers, and all are telling the same. Do they all lie? (Well 
it might be possible)


> So which is it?
> Display resolution 1280*800 means it couldn't be used comfortably by
> today's UI standards and is not significantly better than screen of your
> smartphone.
Yes, but this would be ok for me. My old fellow, an Asus EEEPC 1008 has got 
1024x600 which was ok for me. But now over the years, it got rather slow and 
it is 32-bit, too. So I am looking for a successor. For basic network analysis 
I could use a tablet (which I am also using) with "termux" and a bluetotth 
keyboard. 

But I would like to use an Inetl compatible cpu, as all my wanted stuff is 
running on this.  And it shall  be small. 13 inch and bigger I already own, so 
these small things awoke my attention.

> Notice how none of the reviewers made a photo or screenshot of actual
> hardware specifications detected by OS. More reasons to not trust device
> descriptions or reviews.
Yes, I see.

> There is not a single actual photo of the product, in the description
> section, only 3D modeled edited pictures.
> When order is disputed, AliExpress arbitration service will consider
> Characteristics as primary source for specifications, so it will be
> customer's fault in the end and refund could be denied.
> In conclusion: It is a *very* overpriced toy, not a device you could
> accomplish any complex work.
> 

Hmm, overpriced, you say. Do you mean, "overpriced" even when the the tellings 
are true (CPU, RAM-size, hardrive-size and so on)?
 
> If I was in the market for a new "work horse" laptop, I'd search for one
> with at least 14" screen size, with display height resolution of 1080p
> or more.
Hmm, well, here in Germany is a very good reseller for "normal" notebooks. I 
can get a 12 inch Dell notebook with 8GB RAM and a 512GB drive for under 100 
Bucks (about 99 €uro). This with 2 year guarantee. The notebook is of cource 
refurbished. I know this seller for many years and he can be trusted and has a 
well service. If I do not find a smaller notebook for about 300 €, I will buy 
this one.

It is a pity, my hope was another statement than yours. 

However, thank you very much for your help and the time you took! It helped a 
lot!

Best regards

Hans

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#274861

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 24.11.2024 22:05, Hans wrote:
>> Long answer:
>> As a rule of thumb, never trust AliExpress product descriptions.
>> You have to always look up _specifications_ on Intel official website or
>> websites of other vendors.Seller claims this device has N100 CPU [1],
>> but in Characteristics section it is actually J4115 [2].
> Does this mean, in real this is not an Intel CPU? I saw these notebooks from
> several different sellers, and all are telling the same. Do they all lie? (Well
> it might be possible)
They are both Intel CPUs just different models. One is 12th-Gen, while 
the other is discontinued Celeron SoC. You can see their specifications 
by following URLs I've sent in previous email.
As frequent AliExpress shopper, I've had my share of dishonest sellers, 
but also extremely honest ones, who would admit their mistakes and send 
out missing parts of an order even without a dispute procedure.
Shopping on AliExpress is a gamble and every gamble implies a loss of money.

>> So which is it?
>> Display resolution 1280*800 means it couldn't be used comfortably by
>> today's UI standards and is not significantly better than screen of your
>> smartphone.
> Yes, but this would be ok for me. My old fellow, an Asus EEEPC 1008 has got
> 1024x600 which was ok for me. But now over the years, it got rather slow and
> it is 32-bit, too. So I am looking for a successor. For basic network analysis
> I could use a tablet (which I am also using) with "termux" and a bluetotth
> keyboard.
>
> But I would like to use an Inetl compatible cpu, as all my wanted stuff is
> running on this.  And it shall  be small. 13 inch and bigger I already own, so
> these small things awoke my attention.
It seems like you've looking for a niche product with specific tasks in 
mind.
My patience and eyesight for small screens are very limited and I can't 
get work done within sensible time, if I don't have a man page and a 
config file open on the screen side-by-side.

>> There is not a single actual photo of the product, in the description
>> section, only 3D modeled edited pictures.
>> When order is disputed, AliExpress arbitration service will consider
>> Characteristics as primary source for specifications, so it will be
>> customer's fault in the end and refund could be denied.
>> In conclusion: It is a *very* overpriced toy, not a device you could
>> accomplish any complex work.
>>
> Hmm, overpriced, you say. Do you mean, "overpriced" even when the the tellings
> are true (CPU, RAM-size, hardrive-size and so on)?
Even if the specs are true, they are asking 450USD+ (price for 12GB RAM, 
1TB Storage+customs and delivery fees) for a product of unknown build 
quality, with outdated screen, without warranty, without information 
about internal components and their quality, without information about 
battery life, etc.
12GB RAM means it is working in Single channel mode, 4GB soldered 
onboard + 8GB in SODIMM slot, or 8GB soldered onboard + 4GB in SODIMM slot.
LCD screens with those specifications could be sourced from rejected, or 
old refurbished products.
1TB M.2 drive could be SATA instead of much faster NVMe, or is made with 
slower and cheaper QLC (4bit) NAND chips instead of TLC (3bit) NAND chips.
Chinese engineers are very clever about utilizing previous-gen 
components, refurbished and rejected ones.
Overall, for me it is too much money to gamble.
For 450USD there are usually much better options, even if they are 
off-brand (like Huawei, Maibenben, etc), but with warranty, if they are 
bought from local shops/sites.

>   
>> If I was in the market for a new "work horse" laptop, I'd search for one
>> with at least 14" screen size, with display height resolution of 1080p
>> or more.
> Hmm, well, here in Germany is a very good reseller for "normal" notebooks. I
> can get a 12 inch Dell notebook with 8GB RAM and a 512GB drive for under 100
> Bucks (about 99 €uro). This with 2 year guarantee. The notebook is of cource
> refurbished. I know this seller for many years and he can be trusted and has a
> well service. If I do not find a smaller notebook for about 300 €, I will buy
> this one.
>
> It is a pity, my hope was another statement than yours.
>
> However, thank you very much for your help and the time you took! It helped a
> lot!
No problem, just sharing my experience with you.
I might sound discouraging, it is definitely a product not for me, but 
considering all information I gave you, if you feel like you can afford 
this gamble, go for it.
At the very least you will get a cool looking piece of technology to put 
on a shelf. :)


-- 

  With kindest regards, Alexander.

  Debian - The universal operating system
  https://www.debian.org

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#274866

On 11/24/24 12:06, Hans wrote:
> Hello Alexander,
> 
> thank you very much for your response.
> 
>> Short answer: Not usable.
> 
> Hmm, that is a pity.
> 
>> Long answer:
>> As a rule of thumb, never trust AliExpress product descriptions.

+100 or more.

I bought a voron trident, $1300 + ship, 3 years ago? Carton all smashed 
to hell but no empty pockets for parts. Did not say 'kit" anyplace in 
description. Got all the major hardware, but only 25% of the plastic, 
getting the printable files was always missing about half, after 6 
months they quit responding so I gave up, it may at some point be a 
printer but it will be me designing and subbing good parts if and when 
using their frame and bed. Depends on whether I find a need for a 
printer that small.

>> You have to always look up _specifications_ on Intel official website or
>> websites of other vendors.Seller claims this device has N100 CPU [1],
>> but in Characteristics section it is actually J4115 [2].
> Does this mean, in real this is not an Intel CPU? I saw these notebooks from
> several different sellers, and all are telling the same. Do they all lie? (Well
> it might be possible)
> 
> 
>> So which is it?
>> Display resolution 1280*800 means it couldn't be used comfortably by
>> today's UI standards and is not significantly better than screen of your
>> smartphone.
> Yes, but this would be ok for me. My old fellow, an Asus EEEPC 1008 has got
> 1024x600 which was ok for me. But now over the years, it got rather slow and
> it is 32-bit, too. So I am looking for a successor. For basic network analysis
> I could use a tablet (which I am also using) with "termux" and a bluetotth
> keyboard.
> 
> But I would like to use an Inetl compatible cpu, as all my wanted stuff is
> running on this.  And it shall  be small. 13 inch and bigger I already own, so
> these small things awoke my attention.
> 
>> Notice how none of the reviewers made a photo or screenshot of actual
>> hardware specifications detected by OS. More reasons to not trust device
>> descriptions or reviews.
> Yes, I see.
> 
>> There is not a single actual photo of the product, in the description
>> section, only 3D modeled edited pictures.
>> When order is disputed, AliExpress arbitration service will consider
>> Characteristics as primary source for specifications, so it will be
>> customer's fault in the end and refund could be denied.
>> In conclusion: It is a *very* overpriced toy, not a device you could
>> accomplish any complex work.
>>
> 
> Hmm, overpriced, you say. Do you mean, "overpriced" even when the the tellings
> are true (CPU, RAM-size, hardrive-size and so on)?
>   
>> If I was in the market for a new "work horse" laptop, I'd search for one
>> with at least 14" screen size, with display height resolution of 1080p
>> or more.
> Hmm, well, here in Germany is a very good reseller for "normal" notebooks. I
> can get a 12 inch Dell notebook with 8GB RAM and a 512GB drive for under 100
> Bucks (about 99 €uro). This with 2 year guarantee. The notebook is of cource
> refurbished. I know this seller for many years and he can be trusted and has a
> well service. If I do not find a smaller notebook for about 300 €, I will buy
> this one.
> 
> It is a pity, my hope was another statement than yours.
> 
> However, thank you very much for your help and the time you took! It helped a
> lot!
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> .


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#274841

Hans wrote: 
> I discovered some small laptops (10 inch and 7 inch), with an Intel N100 
> processor,  up to 16 GB RAM and ump to 1 TB disk. But shipped with windows.
> 
> 2 questions: 
> 
> 1. Does one have any experience, if the N100 cpu is usable for fluently work? 
> These processors are also built in small mini computers.

I have an N100 mini running firewall duties. It is more than
adequate for that.


> 2., Can debian installed on these laptops or are theire BIOSes mostly dongled 
> like on Microsoft Surface tablets and have to be cracked?

I don't know about the laptops; I found it very easy to install Debian stable.


> However, the question is: Will the N100 be fast enough for fluently working 
> with it? (My comparision is a Fujitsu Lifebook with 8GB and an I5 cpu).

I have a very old mini -- 11 years old -- running an i3-3227U,
which is strictly inferior to an N100 in every benchmark and
technology.

It works just fine as a Debian desktop running X, XFCE,
LibreOffice and Firefox. Having enough RAM and an SSD goes a
long way towards usability.

-dsr-

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