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UNUBSCRIBE

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  UNUBSCRIBE glenn green <glenn.green55@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 04:40 +0200
    Re: UNUBSCRIBE Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-08-11 06:40 +0200
      Re: UNUBSCRIBE Luna Jernberg <droidbittin@gmail.com> - 2023-08-11 09:00 +0200
        Re: UNUBSCRIBE Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-11 11:10 +0200
          Re: UNUBSCRIBE davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-08-11 16:00 +0200
            Re: UNUBSCRIBE Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-08-11 16:30 +0200
              Re: UNUBSCRIBE gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-08-11 17:00 +0200
                Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-08-11 20:30 +0200
                  Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-08-11 23:40 +0200
                    Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-08-12 00:50 +0200
                      Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-12 01:30 +0200
                    Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio zithro <slack@rabbit.lu> - 2023-08-12 02:10 +0200
                      List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing  list unsubscription requests and identificatio Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-12 03:00 +0200
                        Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2023-08-12 15:30 +0200
                          Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 03:40 +0200
                        Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-08-13 02:20 +0200
                          Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-08-13 02:30 +0200
                          Sorting messages by threads - was - Re: List administrators - request  for intervention Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-13 05:10 +0200
                          Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-08-13 05:50 +0200
                            Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-08-13 21:40 +0200
                              Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 22:50 +0200
                                Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-08-14 19:00 +0200
                              Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-14 00:40 +0200
                                Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re:  Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-08-14 20:30 +0200
                      Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 03:20 +0200
                        Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-08-12 04:40 +0200
                          Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio zithro <slack@rabbit.lu> - 2023-08-14 18:30 +0200
                            Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-08-14 21:40 +0200
                        Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2023-08-12 18:20 +0200
                          Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2023-08-12 21:00 +0200
                    Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-08-12 05:20 +0200
                      Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 01:30 +0200
                        Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2023-08-13 19:00 +0200
                    Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio tomas@tuxteam.de - 2023-08-12 06:50 +0200
              Re: UNUBSCRIBE Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> - 2023-08-11 17:50 +0200
                Re: UNUBSCRIBE Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-11 20:10 +0200
                  Re: UNUBSCRIBE Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> - 2023-08-12 10:10 +0200
                    Re: UNUBSCRIBE Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-12 12:20 +0200
              Re: UNUBSCRIBE debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-08-11 19:10 +0200
            Re: UNUBSCRIBE Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-11 20:00 +0200
              Alpine was: UNUBSCRIBE fjd <moelmoel2714@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 04:20 +0200
                Re: Alpine was: UNUBSCRIBE Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-12 12:10 +0200
                  Re: Alpine was: UNUBSCRIBE fjd <moelmoel2714@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 06:00 +0200
                  Re: Alpine was: UNUBSCRIBE fjd <moelmoel2714@gmail.com> - 2023-08-13 06:20 +0200
                Re: Alpine was: UNUBSCRIBE Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-08-12 16:50 +0200
                  Re: Alpine was: UNUBSCRIBE Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-08-12 17:10 +0200
                    Re: Alpine was: UNUBSCRIBE Bret Busby <bret@busby.net> - 2023-08-12 20:50 +0200
                      Re: Alpine was: UNUBSCRIBE David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-08-13 01:30 +0200
      Re: UNUBSCRIBE Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-08-11 17:50 +0200
        Re: UNUBSCRIBE Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2023-08-11 21:50 +0200

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#260824 — UNUBSCRIBE

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#260826

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 19:20:30 -0700
glenn green <glenn.green55@gmail.com> wrote:

> 

You would probably do better to send that to a special email address
intended for managing subscriptions. On most lists, you can find it by
searching the headers (CTL-H on many mail readers) for "unsubscribe".

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#260828

Or one could unsubscribe using the web interface here:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/

Den fre 11 aug. 2023 kl 06:36 skrev Charles Curley
<charlescurley@charlescurley.com>:
>
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 19:20:30 -0700
> glenn green <glenn.green55@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> You would probably do better to send that to a special email address
> intended for managing subscriptions. On most lists, you can find it by
> searching the headers (CTL-H on many mail readers) for "unsubscribe".
>
> --
> Does anybody read signatures any more?
>
> https://charlescurley.com
> https://charlescurley.com/blog/
>

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#260829

On 11/8/23 14:49, Luna Jernberg wrote:
> Or one could unsubscribe using the web interface here:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/
> 

"If all else fails, follow the instructions"

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#subunsub

"
Subscription / Unsubscription

Anyone is able to subscribe/unsubscribe on their own to any mailing 
list, presuming the subscription policy for a particular list is open.

You can use simple web forms to subscribe or unsubscribe from individual 
mailing lists, available at their respective web pages at 
https://lists.debian.org/.

To subscribe or unsubscribe from multiple mailing lists at once, use the 
list subscription or unsubscription web forms, respectively. The former 
page also includes descriptions and the subscription policy for each list.

The requests for subscription or unsubscription can also be sent by 
email, to a special control address, which is slightly different from 
the lists address. Subscription or unsubscription messages should NOT be 
sent to the address of the mailing list itself.

To subscribe to or unsubscribe from a mailing list, please send mail to

<listname>-REQUEST@lists.debian.org

with the word subscribe or unsubscribe as subject.

Please remember the -REQUEST part of the address.

As part of the subscription process, the list software will send you an 
email to which you must reply in order to finish subscribing. This is a 
security measure to keep people from subscribing others to the lists 
without their permission.
"

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

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#260834

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
> On 11/8/23 14:49, Luna Jernberg wrote:
>> Or one could unsubscribe using the web interface here:
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/
>> 
>
> "If all else fails, follow the instructions"
>
> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#subunsub
>
> "
> Subscription / Unsubscription
>
> Anyone is able to subscribe/unsubscribe on their own to any mailing list, 
> presuming the subscription policy for a particular list is open.
[snip]
> The requests for subscription or unsubscription can also be sent by email, to 
> a special control address, which is slightly different from the lists 
> address. Subscription or unsubscription messages should NOT be sent to the 
> address of the mailing list itself.
>
> To subscribe to or unsubscribe from a mailing list, please send mail to
>
> <listname>-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
>
> with the word subscribe or unsubscribe as subject.

I guess this means that any of us could have bounced^[1] the OP's mail
straight to

  debian-user-request@lists.debian.org

> Please remember the -REQUEST part of the address.
>
> As part of the subscription process, the list software will send you an email 
> to which you must reply in order to finish subscribing. This is a security 
> measure to keep people from subscribing others to the lists without their 
> permission.
> "

OP would then get a confirmation email, and problem solved.

NOTES

1. From Alpine's help page on bouncing:

The Bounce (B) command allows you to re-send, or "remail", a message,
as if you were never in the loop. It is analogous to crossing out your
address on a postal letter, writing a different address on the
envelope, and putting it into the mailbox. Bounce is used primarily to
redirect email that was sent to you in error. Also, some owners of
email lists need the bounce command to handle list traffic. Bounce is
not anonymous. A ReSent-From header is added to the message so that
the recipient may tell that you Bounced it to them.

-- 
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

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#260836

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 01:52:53PM +0000, davidson wrote:
> I guess this means that any of us could have bounced^[1] the OP's mail
> straight to
> 
>  debian-user-request@lists.debian.org

Except then the user would not learn how to unsubscribe correctly, and
someone would have to keep doing it for them every time this comes up
in the future.

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#260837

On 8/11/23 10:26, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 01:52:53PM +0000, davidson wrote:
>> I guess this means that any of us could have bounced^[1] the OP's mail
>> straight to
>>
>>   debian-user-request@lists.debian.org
> 
> Except then the user would not learn how to unsubscribe correctly, and
> someone would have to keep doing it for them every time this comes up
> in the future.
>
The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a 
different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.  Then the 
comparison to determine the user is who he claims to be will fail, and 
so will the unsub.  We've been battling this browser id thing for close 
to 20 years, but no solution that actually works 100% has been developed.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>

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#260844 — Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

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On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

[...]

> The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
> different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.

Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:

 1. you send the mailing list software an unsubscription
   request for a specific mail address: either by sending
   a mail or by performing a HTTP GET on a specific URL
   (aka "clicking on a link")

 2. the mailing list software sends a mail (containing a
   token) to confirm the unsubscription request; you can
   again reply by mail or "click on a link" (see above).
   In both cases, the confirmation contains this token.

Note that it is in step 2 where you prove that you have "control
over the mail address in question", meaning that you can read
mails sent to this address, because otherwise you wouldn't know
the token.

No browser identification or other mysterious OS stuff going on
here. Plain, simple and working since 30-40 years.

The only way you can "lose" the capability to unsubscribe is
if you "lose control" over your mail addres. But then, Someone
Else is getting the debian-user@ mails, and unsubscription
becomes Someone Else's problem. Big deal.

The only way Someone Else can unsubscribe you from debian-user@
is if Someone Else has read access to your inbox. But then, if
you don't trust Someone Else, you've got bigger troubles than
Just Being Unsubscribed From Some Random Public Mailing List.

furrfu.

Cheers
-- 
tomás

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#260847 — Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On 8/11/23 14:25, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
>> different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.
> 
> Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:
> 
No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all 
the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least 
a decade. The fact that I have a nearly 30 character pw it would take 
eons to guess, doesn't mean a thing to them.

>   1. you send the mailing list software an unsubscription
>     request for a specific mail address: either by sending
>     a mail or by performing a HTTP GET on a specific URL
>     (aka "clicking on a link")
> 
>   2. the mailing list software sends a mail (containing a
>     token) to confirm the unsubscription request; you can
>     again reply by mail or "click on a link" (see above).
>     In both cases, the confirmation contains this token.
> 
> Note that it is in step 2 where you prove that you have "control
> over the mail address in question", meaning that you can read
> mails sent to this address, because otherwise you wouldn't know
> the token.
> 
> No browser identification or other mysterious OS stuff going on
> here. Plain, simple and working since 30-40 years.
> 
> The only way you can "lose" the capability to unsubscribe is
> if you "lose control" over your mail addres. But then, Someone
> Else is getting the debian-user@ mails, and unsubscription
> becomes Someone Else's problem. Big deal.
> 
> The only way Someone Else can unsubscribe you from debian-user@
> is if Someone Else has read access to your inbox. But then, if
> you don't trust Someone Else, you've got bigger troubles than
> Just Being Unsubscribed From Some Random Public Mailing List.
> 
> furrfu.
> 
> Cheers

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>

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#260848 — Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 05:39:28PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 8/11/23 14:25, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
> > > different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.
> > 
> > Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:
> > 
> No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all the
> bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least a
> decade. The fact that I have a nearly 30 character pw it would take eons to
> guess, doesn't mean a thing to them.

Your bank's authentication policy has NOTHING AT ALL to do with
unsubscribing from a mailing list.

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#260849 — Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On 12/8/23 06:45, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 05:39:28PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 8/11/23 14:25, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>>> On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
>>>> different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.
>>>
>>> Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:
>>>
>> No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all the
>> bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least a
>> decade. The fact that I have a nearly 30 character pw it would take eons to
>> guess, doesn't mean a thing to them.
> 
> Your bank's authentication policy has NOTHING AT ALL to do with
> unsubscribing from a mailing list.
> 

And, I fail to see how a web browser version or operating system version 
influences the response to a subscriber doing as instructed;

"
To subscribe to or unsubscribe from a mailing list, please send mail to

<listname>-REQUEST@lists.debian.org

with the word subscribe or unsubscribe as subject.
"

????

I say again - "If all else fails, follow the instructions.".

Simple.

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

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#260850 — Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On 11 Aug 2023 23:39, gene heskett wrote:
> No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all 
> the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least 
> a decade.

With all due respect, can you stop spreading misinformation to this list ?
Not only this has nothing to do with unsubscribing to the ML, but it 
just shows that you don't get what you're talking about.
Are you really an engineer ?!

This extends to : DONT FOLLOW TUTORIALS THAT WONT EXPLAIN THE **WHY**

Also, I admire dedicated people on this ML ...
It's only 3 months I'm following it regularly, to learn things about Debian.
What did I learn ? Random people SUCK. Big time.

But I guess it's the XXI century plague.
People using other people's time to spare their own.

Sorry for the noise, if you get that oxymoron ;)

-- 
++
zithro / Cyril

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#260851 — List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On 12/8/23 08:08, zithro wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2023 23:39, gene heskett wrote:
>> No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all 
>> the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at 
>> least a decade.
> 
> With all due respect, can you stop spreading misinformation to this list ?
> Not only this has nothing to do with unsubscribing to the ML, but it 
> just shows that you don't get what you're talking about.
> Are you really an engineer ?!
> 
> This extends to : DONT FOLLOW TUTORIALS THAT WONT EXPLAIN THE **WHY**
> 
> Also, I admire dedicated people on this ML ...
> It's only 3 months I'm following it regularly, to learn things about 
> Debian.
> What did I learn ? Random people SUCK. Big time.
> 
> But I guess it's the XXI century plague.
> People using other people's time to spare their own.
> 
> Sorry for the noise, if you get that oxymoron ;)
> 
Hello.

Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the 
"unubscribe" thread?

I believe that sufficient has been said, and, enough faecal matter has 
been spread (and, I am not referring to the poster above, in that), and, 
explicit instructions for how to unsubscribe, have been posted, and, if 
some subscribers need to be told how to input the name of this mailing 
list ("If you look at that black rectangle in front of you, with those 
white markings on it, that is named a keyboard. On that thing, if you 
look along the rows of the markings, you should be able to see one 
marking, that looks a bit like a half circle on the right hand side, 
and, it has a straight line running up the left had side of that half 
circle. that marking is named a 'D'. If you press that, you should be 
able to see  the 'd' character on you computer screen. Can you see that? 
Very good. Now, the next  marking to look for, is for an "E". That is 
the next character in the name of the mailing list...."), then, perhaps, 
they need help, that is more than how to unsubscribe from the mailing 
list, and, both threads have been made to descend into the ridiculous, 
and, have started invoking ill-will, that helps no-one.

So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to 
the subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; 
discussion of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating 
system, and, not the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has 
arisen, like a living, growing, cesspool.

Thank you in anticipation

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

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#260870 — Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 08:53:43AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> Hello.
> 
> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the
> "unubscribe" thread?
> 

Sadly, this list isn't fully moderated: the only way to stop any particular
thread is not to contribute to it.

I spend some time monitoring in case threads become acrimonious: I also
post an FAQ here once a month reminding folk here of the Debian Code of
Conduct.

It's probably worth another reminder, formally, from me as a member of
the Debian Community Team, that people posting to the list are respectfully
asked to abide by the Code of Conduct. Be polite, be constructive, be
helpful - don't fan the flames of flame wars.

No one of us is perfect: the temptation to just add a bit more when you
are irritated or something is wrong on the internet can be very strong.

Obligatory xkcd cartoon: https://xkcd.com/386

It's also quite easy to criticise the perpetrators of long threads: the easiest
way to stop them is not to add to them.

I could always add the how to unsubscribe to the FAQ - but if people don't read
mail headers and footers on the list, they won't read the FAQ either :(


> 
> So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to the
> subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; discussionWW
> of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating system, and, not
> the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has arisen, like a living,
> growing, cesspool.
> 
> Thank you in anticipation
> 

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater

[amacater@debian.org]
For the Debian Community Team
> ..
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> (UTC+0800)
> ..............
> 

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#260899 — Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 10:18 AM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote:
> [...]
> No one of us is perfect: the temptation to just add a bit more when you
> are irritated or something is wrong on the internet can be very strong.
>
> Obligatory xkcd cartoon: https://xkcd.com/386

Yeah, some threads refuse to die. Some folks just won't let things go.
Other folks just ignore what they are told, which causes everyone to
repeat themselves. And then there's the hydras - threads that spawn
multiple threads that won't die. Ugh...

I'm subscribed to a lot of lists. I think debian-users is the worst
when it comes to run-on threads.

Jeff

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#260897 — Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
[snip]
> Hello.
>
> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the 
> "unubscribe" thread?

In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages
from my inbox to a dedicated folder.

Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of
that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed:

%<------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     18284  9:42      Hans                          (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
   N 18285 Yesterday  peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
   N 18288 15:45      Erwan David                   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
     18292 12:35      Greg Wooledge                 (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
* N 18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink                     (6K) > Sound loses my analog 
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green                   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
   N 18332 11:44      Piscium                       (7K) > Cannot install Debian
   N 18339 13:45      peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49      gene heskett                  (6K) > setting up network wit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------>%

All 34 messages (at this time) to the UNUBSCRIBE thread are collapsed;
only the OP's initial message is visible. As long as I retain the
thread-initial message, subsequent contributions to that thread will
be invisible, in this collapsed view.

If a thread interests me, say Carl Fink's, I can expand it:

%<------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     18284  9:42      Hans                          (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
   N 18285 Yesterday  peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
   N 18288 15:45      Erwan David                   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
     18292 12:35      Greg Wooledge                 (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
*   18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink                     (6K) . Sound loses my analog 
*   18294 Thursday   Marco                         (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses my a
     18295 Yesterday  Carl Fink                    (30K) .   \-Re: Sound loses my
     18296  5:05      Marco                         (5K) .     \-Re: Sound loses
   N 18297 14:49      Carl Fink                     (6K)         \-Re: Sound lose
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green                   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
   N 18332 11:44      Piscium                       (7K) > Cannot install Debian
   N 18339 13:45      peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49      gene heskett                  (6K) > setting up network wit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------>%

But if a thread does *not* interest me, I don't expand it, and then
the only visible effect of subsequent contributions to that thread is
to promote the thread down the list (since threads nearer the bottom
are more recently active).

>
[snip]
> So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to the 
> subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; discussion 
> of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating system, and, not 
> the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has arisen, like a living, 
> growing, cesspool.

The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
irrelevant to my interests: I view debian-user in threaded mode with
collapsed threads, and simply do not expand the ones that don't
concern me.

I believe these are the config settings I use to enable this:

     ...
     [X]  Thread Sorts by Arrival
     ...
     Sort Key                          =
             Set    Sort Options
             ---  ----------------------
             ( )  Subject
             ( )  Arrival
             ( )  From
             ( )  To
             ( )  Cc
             ( )  Date
             ( )  siZe
             ( )  OrderedSubj
             ( )  scorE
             (*)  tHread
             ( )  Reverse Subject
             ( )  Reverse Arrival
             ( )  Reverse From
             ( )  Reverse To
             ( )  Reverse Cc
             ( )  Reverse Date
             ( )  Reverse siZe
             ( )  Reverse OrderedSubj
             ( )  Reverse scorE
             ( )  Reverse tHread
             ...
     Threading Display Style           =
             Set    Rule Values
             ---  ----------------------
             ( )  none
             (*)  show-thread-structure    (default)
             ( )  mutt-like
             ( )  indent-subject-1
             ( )  indent-subject-2
             ( )  indent-from-1
             ( )  indent-from-2
             ( )  show-structure-in-from
             ...
     Threading Index Style             =
             Set    Rule Values
             ---  ----------------------
             ( )  regular-index-with-expanded-threads
             (*)  regular-index-with-collapsed-threads
             ( )  separate-index-screen-always
             ( )  separate-index-screen-except-for-single-messages
     Threading Indicator Character     = <No Value Set: using ">">
     Threading Expanded Character      = <No Value Set: using ".">
     Threading Last Reply Character    = <No Value Set: using "\">

I like also to set the option below, because I find that being able to
collapse sub-threads turns out to be more confusing (to me) than it is
helpful.

     [X]  Slash Collapses Entire Thread

-- 
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

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#260898 — Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 davidson wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
> [snip]
>> Hello.
>> 
>> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the 
>> "unubscribe" thread?
>
> In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages
> from my inbox to a dedicated folder.
>
> Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of
> that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed:

Flowed text garbled the snapshots a little.

%<------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    18284  9:42      Hans                          (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45      Erwan David                   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
    18292 12:35      Greg Wooledge                 (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
* N 18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink                     (6K) > Sound loses my analog 
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green                   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
  N 18332 11:44      Piscium                       (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45      peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49      gene heskett                  (6K) > setting up network wit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------>%

%<------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    18284  9:42      Hans                          (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45      Erwan David                   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
    18292 12:35      Greg Wooledge                 (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
*   18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink                     (6K) . Sound loses my analog 
*   18294 Thursday   Marco                         (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses my a
    18295 Yesterday  Carl Fink                    (30K) .   \-Re: Sound loses my
    18296  5:05      Marco                         (5K) .     \-Re: Sound loses
  N 18297 14:49      Carl Fink                     (6K)         \-Re: Sound lose
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green                   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
  N 18332 11:44      Piscium                       (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45      peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49      gene heskett                  (6K) > setting up network wit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------>%

-- 
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

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#260900 — Sorting messages by threads - was - Re: List administrators - request for intervention

On 13/8/23 08:12, davidson wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
> [snip]
>> Hello.
>>
>> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and 
>> the "unubscribe" thread?
> 
> In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages
> from my inbox to a dedicated folder.
> 
> Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of
> that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed:
> 
> %<------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      18284  9:42      Hans                          (7K)   Re: 
> libkscreenlocker5:
>    N 18285 Yesterday  peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Crosshairs in 
> gimp 2.1
>    N 18288 15:45      Erwan David                   (8K) > Swap size in 
> debain 12
>      18292 12:35      Greg Wooledge                 (7K)   Re: Mailing 
> list unsub
> * N 18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink                     (6K) > Sound loses my 
> analog *   18298 Thursday   glenn green                   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
>    N 18332 11:44      Piscium                       (7K) > Cannot 
> install Debian
>    N 18339 13:45      peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Time stamps 
> on session
> *   18342 14:49      gene heskett                  (6K) > setting up 
> network wit
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------>%
> 
> All 34 messages (at this time) to the UNUBSCRIBE thread are collapsed;
> only the OP's initial message is visible. As long as I retain the
> thread-initial message, subsequent contributions to that thread will
> be invisible, in this collapsed view.
> 
> If a thread interests me, say Carl Fink's, I can expand it:
> 
> %<------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      18284  9:42      Hans                          (7K)   Re: 
> libkscreenlocker5:
>    N 18285 Yesterday  peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Crosshairs in 
> gimp 2.1
>    N 18288 15:45      Erwan David                   (8K) > Swap size in 
> debain 12
>      18292 12:35      Greg Wooledge                 (7K)   Re: Mailing 
> list unsub
> *   18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink                     (6K) . Sound loses my 
> analog *   18294 Thursday   Marco                         (5K) . \-Re: 
> Sound loses my a
>      18295 Yesterday  Carl Fink                    (30K) .   \-Re: Sound 
> loses my
>      18296  5:05      Marco                         (5K) .     \-Re: 
> Sound loses
>    N 18297 14:49      Carl Fink                     (6K)         \-Re: 
> Sound lose
> *   18298 Thursday   glenn green                   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
>    N 18332 11:44      Piscium                       (7K) > Cannot 
> install Debian
>    N 18339 13:45      peter@easthope.ca             (6K) > Time stamps 
> on session
> *   18342 14:49      gene heskett                  (6K) > setting up 
> network wit
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------>%
> 
> But if a thread does *not* interest me, I don't expand it, and then
> the only visible effect of subsequent contributions to that thread is
> to promote the thread down the list (since threads nearer the bottom
> are more recently active).
> 
>>
> [snip]
>> So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return 
>> to the subject matter for which the list was created and is 
>> maintained; discussion of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with 
>> the operating system, and, not the extraneous (extreme euphemism) 
>> "stuff", that has arisen, like a living, growing, cesspool.
> 
> The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
> threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
> irrelevant to my interests: I view debian-user in threaded mode with
> collapsed threads, and simply do not expand the ones that don't
> concern me.
> 
> I believe these are the config settings I use to enable this:
> 
>      ...
>      [X]  Thread Sorts by Arrival
>      ...
>      Sort Key                          =
>              Set    Sort Options
>              ---  ----------------------
>              ( )  Subject
>              ( )  Arrival
>              ( )  From
>              ( )  To
>              ( )  Cc
>              ( )  Date
>              ( )  siZe
>              ( )  OrderedSubj
>              ( )  scorE
>              (*)  tHread
>              ( )  Reverse Subject
>              ( )  Reverse Arrival
>              ( )  Reverse From
>              ( )  Reverse To
>              ( )  Reverse Cc
>              ( )  Reverse Date
>              ( )  Reverse siZe
>              ( )  Reverse OrderedSubj
>              ( )  Reverse scorE
>              ( )  Reverse tHread
>              ...
>      Threading Display Style           =
>              Set    Rule Values
>              ---  ----------------------
>              ( )  none
>              (*)  show-thread-structure    (default)
>              ( )  mutt-like
>              ( )  indent-subject-1
>              ( )  indent-subject-2
>              ( )  indent-from-1
>              ( )  indent-from-2
>              ( )  show-structure-in-from
>              ...
>      Threading Index Style             =
>              Set    Rule Values
>              ---  ----------------------
>              ( )  regular-index-with-expanded-threads
>              (*)  regular-index-with-collapsed-threads
>              ( )  separate-index-screen-always
>              ( )  separate-index-screen-except-for-single-messages
>      Threading Indicator Character     = <No Value Set: using ">">
>      Threading Expanded Character      = <No Value Set: using ".">
>      Threading Last Reply Character    = <No Value Set: using "\">
> 
> I like also to set the option below, because I find that being able to
> collapse sub-threads turns out to be more confusing (to me) than it is
> helpful.
> 
>      [X]  Slash Collapses Entire Thread
> 

I use alpine for downloading email and archiving it, and for responding 
to less urgent messages. I have found pine -> alpine to be the most 
powerful email application, with the massive amount of filters and 
filter values that I have, and, the quantity of messages that I have 
stored (about 20-25 years of messages; about 20GB).

I use Thunderbird as a webmail application, for viewing messages in the 
inbox, and, for responding to messages, when I want to make a response 
within a short period of time, or immediately, and, for some simple and 
quick junk filtering.

I do not like sorting by threads, I prefer sorting by arrival; 
unfortunately, over time, pine -> alpine corrupted the sorting by 
arrival, that previously existed, so, now, I use sorting by date.

Different people have different  preferences; "horses for courses".

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

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#260901 — Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +0000, davidson wrote:
> The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
> threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
> irrelevant to my interests

Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious
amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.

You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
involved there.

It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
to promote a volume-wins approach, and the baseline user will not
have an advanced MUA nor necessarily the experience to know that
they're reading nonsense.

Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
usual suspects happens. Does this particular thread go much better if
you assume that everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't
know how to unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at
efficiently managing email but still posts as they posted?

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#260920 — Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +0000, davidson wrote:
>> The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
>> threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
>> irrelevant to my interests
>
> Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
> against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious
> amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.

This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to one's
own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has little
interest in.

And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop now. Leave
well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!"

However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite:

Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of message
headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a bit about
what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually read any of
the messages' content.

For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P
with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot
willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is just
a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...-- then I know
what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will be my first
destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh.

> You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
> the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
> involved there.

I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it
would be so easy to see.

> It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
> to promote a volume-wins approach,

You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object of
the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.)

> and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily
> the experience to know that they're reading nonsense.

When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will contain
something like this:

  Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't understand
  the commands unless you read the manual. If you read the manual, you
  STILL may not understand the commands. Nevertheless, keep trying,
  Curious Human. We are rooting for you!

> Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
> invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
> a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
> usual suspects happens.

My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless of
size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete its
initial message.

> Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that
> everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to
> unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently
> managing email but still posts as they posted?

Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly
slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to
blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro
mailing list:

%<------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    18159 Thursday   glenn green                   (6K) . UNUBSCRIBE
    ...   ...        ...                           ...    ...
[1] 18192 Yesterday  fjd                           (7K) .   |       \-Alpine was
[2] 18193 Yesterday  Bret Busby                    (8K) .   |         |-Re: Alpi
[6] 18194  5:55      fjd                           (7K)     |         | |-Re: Al
[7] 18195  6:11      fjd                           (8K)     |         | \-Re: Al
[3] 18196 Yesterday  Jeffrey Walton                (7K) .   |         \-Re: Alpi
[4] 18197 Yesterday  Greg Wooledge                 (5K) .   |           \-Re: Al
[5] 18198  2:41      Bret Busby                    (9K) .   |             \-Re:
    18199 Yesterday  David Wright                  (6K)     |               \-Re
------------------------------------------------------------------------------>%

Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list.
 [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html

Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list.
 [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html

Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
 [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
 [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html

And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first place
apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same correct
link once again. <-- This person, it would seem, is reading messages
as a SEQUENCE, not as a TREE. (Because the tree makes clear to whom
each message is a reply.)
 [5] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00360.html

(The person who really HAD posted the red herring says nothing.)

And then yet another person chimes in to thank the poster of the
correct MUA list link. And then he follows up, informing us all that
he has just realised (from reading debian-user, not from examination
of the link's target) that this (correct) link has been subsequently
discovered to be incorrect.
 [6] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00381.html
 [7] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00382.html

-- 
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

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