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Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums

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  Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums Borden <borden_c@tutanota.com> - 2021-09-28 08:30 +0200
    Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-09-28 10:30 +0200
    Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums Chuck Zmudzinski <brchuckz@netscape.net> - 2021-09-28 13:20 +0200
      Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-09-28 16:40 +0200
      Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-09-28 17:40 +0200
        Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-09-30 02:50 +0200
          Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-09-30 13:00 +0200
            Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-09-30 21:50 +0200

#240466 — Re: Privacy and defamation of character on Debian public forums

I sympathise with your frustrations.

The open source "community" - especially Debian - is not known for its civility. There have been numerous articles (and backlashes) identifying the rampant misogyny, racism, arrogance, murder and general rudeness amongst its members and leaders. If you're expecting a well-governed organisation with a robust, even-handed and consistent method for handling problems, your princess is in another castle.

Unfortunately, the old economic principle "You get what you pay for" applies. People who are good at what they do  charge good rates and are in too high demand to deal with us plebs for free. As in any volunteer organisation, positions attract people  with way too much free time and whose opinions of themselves (including their legal scholarship) exceeds their abilities. It's pretty tribal.

I'm speaking very broadly here and not in reference to anybody in particular, but I have  numerous incidents from the past 20 years in mind.

Many newcomers to open source are encouraged to read Eric Raymond's "How to ask questions the smart way" which is a rambling manifesto that establishes the caste system of project managers at the top and newcomers at the bottom. Contributors are to be worshipped as gods, and we must be grateful to them when they down from Nirvana to educate us.

Perhaps some day, if it hasn't been done already, I'll work on "How to answer questions the smart way" since communication is a three-step process and, as you can tell from many of the responses to your concerns, many contributors don't feel they owe anything to the users. Again. You get what you pay for.

My point is that all three points in the process - asker, responder and communication medium - have a role to play in building and nurturing a community. But too much emphasis in the open source world overly faults the newcomers and gives veterans too much power.

As others have suggested, I'd recommend wrapping yourself in some anonymity if you're worried about slander and/or reprisal. That's why I opened a Tutanota account.

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#240470

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On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 03:18:56AM +0200, Borden wrote:
> I sympathise with your frustrations.
> 
> The open source "community" - especially Debian - is not known for its
> civility [...]

We must live in different worlds, then.

Things go wrong from time to time, but we keep trying. Intervening in
concrete cases is much more helpful than such roundabout statements,
which are discouraging to all those genuinely trying (and there are
quite a few in this list, thank to you all!).

Cheers
 - t

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#240473

On 9/27/2021 9:18 PM, Borden wrote:
> I sympathise with your frustrations.
>
> The open source "community" - especially Debian - is not known for its civility. There have been numerous articles (and backlashes) identifying the rampant misogyny, racism, arrogance, murder and general rudeness amongst its members and leaders. If you're expecting a well-governed organisation with a robust, even-handed and consistent method for handling problems, your princess is in another castle.
>
> Unfortunately, the old economic principle "You get what you pay for" applies. People who are good at what they do  charge good rates and are in too high demand to deal with us plebs for free. As in any volunteer organisation, positions attract people  with way too much free time and whose opinions of themselves (including their legal scholarship) exceeds their abilities. It's pretty tribal.
>
> I'm speaking very broadly here and not in reference to anybody in particular, but I have  numerous incidents from the past 20 years in mind.
>
> Many newcomers to open source are encouraged to read Eric Raymond's "How to ask questions the smart way" which is a rambling manifesto that establishes the caste system of project managers at the top and newcomers at the bottom. Contributors are to be worshipped as gods, and we must be grateful to them when they down from Nirvana to educate us.

As the original poster, I can say this hits the nail on the head. Most 
definitely, Andy Smith and others claim a right to call newcomers like 
me a laughingstock, damned, etc., on the basis of their supposed 
god-like status. The fact is, I solved my bug (#994899) and wanted to 
help the Debian project out. And as thanks I get called a laughingstock 
and that I would be "damning" myself further if I didn't stop my alleged 
"overreaction." By overreaction, he clearly means I refused to worship 
him and his ilk as the gods they think they are, even claiming the power 
and right to damn newcomers at will. Yet they are the ones unable to 
solve their bug (#991967). And they are the gods to be worshiped? Ha ha! 
I wouldn't pay any of them a dime to try to squash a software bug. I 
will just fix it myself. Debian is closing in on a million bugs. That's 
a lot, it takes about 97 new bugs per day over the 28-year life-span of 
the project to get to a number that high. And that is only the ones that 
are reported. I have seen many bugs in free software that I did not 
bother to report, and I am sure many others have as well.

I am inclined to say that if the truth be told, the only bugs that 
matter are the ones that Google, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM, etc. want to 
get solved. I see many bugs are marked as patch available, yet the patch 
is never applied. My bug is marked as patch available. But I am not 
Google or Amazon. So I doubt my patch for my bug will ever make it into 
the distribution. Apparently I have committed the deadly sin of 
questioning the gods. If Debian wants to prove me wrong, then Debian 
should accept my patch into the distribution, or at least consider it 
and have the courtesy to tell me why they can't or won't accept the 
patch. If they do work with me to get a fix into the Debian software for 
my bug, then I will retract my statement that I believe only the bugs 
that are important to Debian are the ones giant multinational 
corporations want a fix for. Or, think of it this way. Maybe the big 
software companies plant bugs on purpose in free software (or worse, 
malware, ransomware, etc.) so most people have no choice but to pay them 
for their commercial products and security solutions, and it is not good 
for their bottom line if too many people can get a secure, bug-free 
product for free. Again, if Debian accepts my patch for my bug, then I 
would stand corrected.

Chuck

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#240481

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Chuck Zmudzinski <brchuckz@netscape.net> wrote on 28/09/2021 at 13:10:08+0200:

> On 9/27/2021 9:18 PM, Borden wrote:
>> I sympathise with your frustrations.
>>
>> The open source "community" - especially Debian - is not known for
>> its civility. There have been numerous articles (and backlashes)
>> identifying the rampant misogyny, racism, arrogance, murder and
>> general rudeness amongst its members and leaders. If you're
>> expecting a well-governed organisation with a robust, even-handed
>> and consistent method for handling problems, your princess is in
>> another castle.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the old economic principle "You get what you pay for"
>> applies. People who are good at what they do charge good rates and
>> are in too high demand to deal with us plebs for free. As in any
>> volunteer organisation, positions attract people with way too much
>> free time and whose opinions of themselves (including their legal
>> scholarship) exceeds their abilities. It's pretty tribal.
>>
>> I'm speaking very broadly here and not in reference to anybody in particular, but I have  numerous incidents from the past 20 years in mind.
>>
>> Many newcomers to open source are encouraged to read Eric Raymond's
>> "How to ask questions the smart way" which is a rambling manifesto
>> that establishes the caste system of project managers at the top and
>> newcomers at the bottom. Contributors are to be worshipped as gods,
>> and we must be grateful to them when they down from Nirvana to
>> educate us.
>
> As the original poster, I can say this hits the nail on the head. Most
> definitely, Andy Smith and others claim a right to call newcomers like 
> me a laughingstock, damned, etc., on the basis of their supposed
> god-like status. The fact is, I solved my bug (#994899) and wanted to 
> help the Debian project out. And as thanks I get called a
> laughingstock and that I would be "damning" myself further if I didn't
> stop my alleged "overreaction." By overreaction, he clearly means I
> refused to worship him and his ilk as the gods they think they are,
> even claiming the power and right to damn newcomers at will. Yet they
> are the ones unable to solve their bug (#991967). And they are the
> gods to be worshiped? Ha ha! I wouldn't pay any of them a dime to try
> to squash a software bug. I will just fix it myself. Debian is closing
> in on a million bugs. That's a lot, it takes about 97 new bugs per day
> over the 28-year life-span of the project to get to a number that
> high. And that is only the ones that are reported. I have seen many
> bugs in free software that I did not bother to report, and I am sure
> many others have as well.
>
> I am inclined to say that if the truth be told, the only bugs that
> matter are the ones that Google, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM, etc. want to 
> get solved. I see many bugs are marked as patch available, yet the
> patch is never applied. My bug is marked as patch available. But I am
> not Google or Amazon. So I doubt my patch for my bug will ever make it
> into the distribution. Apparently I have committed the deadly sin of 
> questioning the gods. If Debian wants to prove me wrong, then Debian
> should accept my patch into the distribution, or at least consider it 
> and have the courtesy to tell me why they can't or won't accept the
> patch. If they do work with me to get a fix into the Debian software
> for my bug, then I will retract my statement that I believe only the
> bugs that are important to Debian are the ones giant multinational 
> corporations want a fix for. Or, think of it this way. Maybe the big
> software companies plant bugs on purpose in free software (or worse, 
> malware, ransomware, etc.) so most people have no choice but to pay
> them for their commercial products and security solutions, and it is
> not good for their bottom line if too many people can get a secure,
> bug-free product for free. Again, if Debian accepts my patch for my
> bug, then I would stand corrected.

Hi Chuck,

You really should consider stopping to reply and leave things as they
are.

Regards,

--
PEB

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#240485

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 07:10:08AM -0400, Chuck Zmudzinski wrote:
>As the original poster, I can say this hits the nail on the head. Most 
>definitely, Andy Smith and others claim a right to call newcomers like 
>me a laughingstock, damned, etc., on the basis of their supposed 
>god-like status.
...
>By overreaction, he clearly means I refused to worship him and his ilk
>as the gods they think they are, 

I think this is an unreasonable characterisation of Andy Smith which I
invite you to retract. I've read all of his messages on this subject to
this list (at least) and I thought he'd taken great pains to make clear
that he was merely an interested bystander, no more important than
anyone else -- including you!

>My bug is marked as patch available. But I am not Google or Amazon. So
>I doubt my patch for my bug will ever make it into the distribution.

There is ample evidence that patches and contributions coming from
people who are not part of MegaCorps are regularly and routinely
welcomed. The argument you are trying to put forward here is a strange
straw man.

>Apparently I have committed the deadly sin of questioning the gods. If
>Debian wants to prove me wrong, then Debian should accept my patch into
>the distribution

The psychology in play here (If Debian doesn't accept my patch...) is
laughably transparent.

I don't speak for the Xen maintainers. As a general principle, Debian
maintainers weigh contributions with a number of factors. One of those
factors is to what extent the Contributor is someone who the maintainer
can have a constructive working relationship with. It's a strength of
the project, IMHO, that technical excellence doesn't overrule the other
factors. So, even if your patch is technically excellent (and I have not
studied it to make that assertion), you should bear in mind your other
interactions with the project -- including your unreasonable and
ongoing mischaracterisation of Andy Smith and others -- is highly
relevant.

> or at least consider it 
>and have the courtesy to tell me why they can't or won't accept the
>patch.

I'm sorry, neither the Xen maintainers nor any other contributors, be
they volunteers or otherwise, owe you *anything*.


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#240605

On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:34:43 +0100
Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 07:10:08AM -0400, Chuck Zmudzinski wrote:

...

> > or at least consider it 
> >and have the courtesy to tell me why they can't or won't accept the
> >patch.
> 
> I'm sorry, neither the Xen maintainers nor any other contributors, be
> they volunteers or otherwise, owe you *anything*.

Do you really mean that in the open source world, there is - and should
be - no expectation that a contributor who supplies a patch to a
prominent public project that is rejected should receive at least some
sort of explanation for the decision to reject it? I respect your
opinion, but I would have assumed that basic courtesy and civility, and
the open source ethos in general, suggest otherwise.

Celejar

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#240630

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 08:46:35PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
>Do you really mean that in the open source world, there is - and should
>be - no expectation that a contributor who supplies a patch to a
>prominent public project that is rejected should receive at least some
>sort of explanation for the decision to reject it? I respect your
>opinion, but I would have assumed that basic courtesy and civility, and
>the open source ethos in general, suggest otherwise.

Of course it would be polite to offer a response and I think most
maintainers in most circumstances would do so. But volunteer time
is limited and one can't demand a volunteer spend their time on
anything.


-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻	Jonathan Dowland
✎	 jmtd@debian.org
🔗	https://jmtd.net

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#240687

On 9/30/21, Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 08:46:35PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
>>Do you really mean that in the open source world, there is - and should
>>be - no expectation that a contributor who supplies a patch to a
>>prominent public project that is rejected should receive at least some
>>sort of explanation for the decision to reject it? I respect your
>>opinion, but I would have assumed that basic courtesy and civility, and
>>the open source ethos in general, suggest otherwise.
>
> Of course it would be polite to offer a response and I think most
> maintainers in most circumstances would do so. But volunteer time
> is limited and one can't demand a volunteer spend their time on
> anything.

In fact, annoying volunteers tends to reduce their voluntarism...

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