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Groups > linux.debian.user > #238270 > unrolled thread
| Started by | rao mohsin <kraomohsin2@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-08-06 18:10 +0200 |
| Last post | 2021-08-06 20:20 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 95 — 23 participants |
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How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian rao mohsin <kraomohsin2@gmail.com> - 2021-08-06 18:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-06 18:40 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian didier gaumet <didier.gaumet@gmail.com> - 2021-08-06 21:00 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Gunnar Gervin <dofeelok@gmail.com> - 2021-08-06 22:50 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-08-06 23:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 00:50 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-08-07 01:00 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 01:20 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-07 13:00 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-08-07 15:40 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 16:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-08-07 16:30 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 17:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-07 18:00 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-07 23:30 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-08 00:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-08-08 00:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-08 08:00 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-08-08 09:10 +0200
On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-08 11:40 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-08 17:30 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-08-08 18:00 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-08-08 21:00 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-08 22:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-08 23:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-08 23:40 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-09 02:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-10 00:00 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-10 01:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-10 03:00 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-10 03:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-10 03:40 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-11 03:20 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-11 13:50 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> - 2021-08-16 14:30 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-16 16:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> - 2021-08-17 17:00 +0200
Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-08-17 21:00 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-17 21:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-08-17 21:40 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) Terence <terence.john@gmail.com> - 2021-08-17 21:50 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-08-18 00:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-08-18 00:50 +0200
[WAY OFF-TOPIC] Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2021-08-18 01:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-18 01:10 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-18 01:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 07:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-18 13:10 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-08-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-08-18 14:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-19 22:20 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2021-08-18 14:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-18 19:00 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 07:40 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2021-08-19 08:20 +0200
Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-19 09:50 +0200
Re: Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants ...] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 10:40 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 10:30 +0200
Re: Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list ...] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 10:40 +0200
Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list ...] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-19 10:40 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-19 08:30 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-19 10:00 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-19 10:10 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 10:40 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-19 10:20 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Jim Popovitch <jim@k4vqc.com> - 2021-08-19 15:10 +0200
Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-19 17:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-09 07:30 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-10 00:20 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-10 01:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-08-10 01:30 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-10 03:40 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-09 09:40 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-09 11:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2021-08-09 17:10 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-09 17:50 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-08-10 03:00 +0200
Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-10 04:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-07 17:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 17:10 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-08-07 17:30 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Keith Bainbridge <ke1thrboz@gmx.com> - 2021-08-07 02:50 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-08-09 15:30 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 00:50 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Gunnar Gervin <dofeelok@gmail.com> - 2021-08-06 23:00 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 00:50 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 01:00 +0200
[OFFTPIC] How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian deloptes <emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org> - 2021-08-07 08:30 +0200
Re: [OFFTPIC] How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Keith Bainbridge <ke1thrboz@gmx.com> - 2021-08-07 09:50 +0200
Changing subjects, forums and things. Drive Debian <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-08-07 09:50 +0200
Re: Changing subjects, forums and things. Drive Debian Keith Bainbridge <ke1thrboz@gmx.com> - 2021-08-07 13:40 +0200
Re: Howto change of subjects [ was : Changing subjects, forums and things. Drive Debian] Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-08-07 15:20 +0200
Re: Howto change of subjects [ was : Changing subjects, forums and things. Drive Debian] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-08-07 21:50 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian Keith Bainbridge <ke1thrboz@gmx.com> - 2021-08-07 02:50 +0200
Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian 007 <007@caiway.net> - 2021-08-06 20:20 +0200
Page 2 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 Next page →
| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-08 17:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CJSUp-3vn-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238363 |
Hello, On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > any ideas on how to make the situation better? To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think, works well. There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so that people could be directed to a site running on DFSG-free software instead of proprietary platforms like Stack Overflow. Sadly each of these efforts have foundered through lack of use. I don't see the lack of use as an indictment of their effectiveness; rather I think it's just because it's too hard to change the status quo without significant work. The previous attempts have sort of started as an announcement that such a site is available, but not followed up by any level of advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to continually advertise a site as a support venue, it will not get used. The main reason why I see mailing lists as inappropriate for user support is that there is a severe signal to noise ratio problem. In debian-user there's a relatively small group of people who value getting their opinions on a vast variety of topics across more than they value actually answering on-topic questions. So we endure mega-threads of opinion-based off-topic content that regularly descend into personal attacks. It is hard to sift through all of this for nuggets of on-topic wisdom and even when a post is on-topic, a newcomer often doesn't have the base knowledge to distinguish good answers from bad. I find it hard to justify subjecting someone to that. Naturally the voluminous opinion-posters are mostly against anything that would reduce their ability to treat debian-user like a debating society, so effecting change is going to be hard if the only metric one would use to justify the change would be a simple noise-based sentiment analysis of the response to any proposal. If we have to continue using a mailing list for user support then my best suggestion would be to severely tighten up the on-topic requirements so that every post must be about use of Debian, and giving time-outs to posters who repeatedly can't stick to this. This would be a difficult and dramatic change since debian-user has practically no oversight; currently even severe breaches of Debian's Code of Conduct need to be reported to the Community team directly and at most result in a post weeks later saying, "please don't do that" directed at no individual. So the idea that there would be people actively dealing with off-topic content and taking action against individuals would be quite a departure from today's reality. So in summary, I don't think any of the things that would be necessary to improve the way this list works are going to be popular with the regular posters, while starting over with a different solution requires consensus and support from the Debian project that has up until now not been there. We can try to self-moderate by asking ourselves, "does my reply help the poster? Does it belong on debian-user?" Unfortunately for some the mind set is, "I'm a user of Debian so any opinion I wish to post is on-topic on debian-user". I appreciate I have also failed at this from time to time and I include myself in the list of those who should do better. Ways of making us do better are needed. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting > I'd be interested to hear any (even two word) reviews of their sofas… Provides seating. — Andy Davidson
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| From | Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-08 18:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CJTnr-3EP-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238366 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On 0808, Andy Smith wrote: >On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: >> any ideas on how to make the situation better? > >To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue >for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a >Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are >that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required >information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and >ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think, >works well. > >There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so >that people could be directed to a site running on DFSG-free >software instead of proprietary platforms like Stack Overflow. Sadly >each of these efforts have foundered through lack of use. > >I don't see the lack of use as an indictment of their effectiveness; >rather I think it's just because it's too hard to change the status >quo without significant work. > >The previous attempts have sort of started as an announcement that >such a site is available, but not followed up by any level of >advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the >mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small >group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never >use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to >continually advertise a site as a support venue, it will not get >used. There is also a free version of StackOverflow Teams which we could use a pilot to see if it is effective. Honestly, I'm not sure that would be very effective to begin with given that the free version probably limits the number of users. We could also bake a Debian-tailored support site from scratch. I do believe that the majority of users are more self-sufficient than in most communities, but I do see the value of a proper support channel. >If we have to continue using a mailing list for user support then my >best suggestion would be to severely tighten up the on-topic >requirements so that every post must be about use of Debian, and >giving time-outs to posters who repeatedly can't stick to this. I think this is much-overdo change. >We can try to self-moderate by asking ourselves, "does my reply help >the poster? Does it belong on debian-user?" Unfortunately for some >the mind set is, "I'm a user of Debian so any opinion I wish to post >is on-topic on debian-user". I appreciate I have also failed at this >from time to time and I include myself in the list of those who >should do better. Ways of making us do better are needed. I have also failed to respect these guidelines, including very recently. The mailing list has morphed into a niche Debian community that is very noisy and has a high volume of inappropriate behavior. In part, I think that is because the mailing list itself breeds contempt and animosity towards people who you don't agree with. It also seems like a good number of participants just use it as a grounds to vent their frustrations, which isn't acceptable either. All-in-all there is no excuse for such behavior. Let's remain professional! -- Best regards, Brian T
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| From | Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-08 21:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CJWbD-5io-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238366 |
Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > any ideas on how to make the situation better? > > To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue > for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a > Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are > that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required > information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and > ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think, > works well. > > There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so > that people could be directed to a site running on DFSG-free > software instead of proprietary platforms like Stack Overflow. Sadly > each of these efforts have foundered through lack of use. If you particularly want to do this, CoDidact is a non-profit developing and running a GNU Affero-licensed codebase for this sort of thing. I know one of the founders, if you'd like an introduction. https://codidact.org/ > I don't see the lack of use as an indictment of their effectiveness; > rather I think it's just because it's too hard to change the status > quo without significant work. My opinion is that forum and Q/A-style systems are fundamentally inferior to mailing lists for experts and advanced users, while being friendlier to beginners. > advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the > mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small > group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never > use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to The loud ones are partially the rude ones, but also all the people who have been through this cycle several times and have decided that there is nothing wrong with having mailing lists for people who can deal with mailing lists. > this for nuggets of on-topic wisdom and even when a post is > on-topic, a newcomer often doesn't have the base knowledge to > distinguish good answers from bad. I find it hard to justify > subjecting someone to that. This doesn't go away on forum or Q/A sites. Often the top-voted answer is wrong or suboptimal or was correct ten years ago when it was first asked but is incorrect now. > If we have to continue using a mailing list for user support then my > best suggestion would be to severely tighten up the on-topic > requirements so that every post must be about use of Debian, and > giving time-outs to posters who repeatedly can't stick to this. This is reasonable. It is, however, a change in moderation that will require a lot more work from volunteers. -dsr-
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-08 22:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CJXho-68w-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238368 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Hi, > If you particularly want to do this, CoDidact is a non-profit > developing and running a GNU Affero-licensed codebase for this > sort of thing. I know one of the founders, if you'd like an > introduction. https://codidact.org/ > I've looked at CoDiact and this seem to be using many dependencies on C# language and been mostly made for the Windows / .Net platform. This is not a deal breaker but not a great incentive into taking interest either. -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-08 23:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CJYdr-6Gj-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238366 |
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On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > any ideas on how to make the situation better? > > To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue > for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a > Stack Overflow-like site [...] I stringly disagree on that one. There's tooling and there's politeness, and they are, IMO, uncorrelated variables. Some people are rather wired towards "forum style", others more towards "mail style" -- and I think that's why this kind of discussion tends to come up time and again. Personally, I tend strongly towards "mail style": I have my MUA and have taught it to work "my way". I'm infinitely more effective (and happy) with that. I cringe at nearly every Webby interface. But I am aware that there are people who work the opposite way. I don't have a solution to that. There is that big temptation to imagine something which works "both ways" (there are fora, like Discourse, which offer a mail interface, I'm taking part in one of those), but my experience is that, since in a webby forum the presentation itself is controlled, it ends up being part of the "language". This part gets "lost" in translation to mail. For those users, it feels "unnatural". > The main reason why I see mailing lists as inappropriate for user > support is that there is a severe signal to noise ratio problem. I think you'll get the same on unmoderated fora. A moderated mailing list has a higher S/N ratio, but Debian User isn't, for a very good reason. I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume. > In debian-user there's a relatively small group of people who value > getting their opinions on a vast variety of topics across more than > they value actually answering on-topic questions [...] These are strong judgement calls, and I think our community is so highly diverse that the thresholds will vary enormously. It is thus, IMO, important to be extra careful. Things which to one may be a funny joke can be to others hurtful. > We can try to self-moderate by asking ourselves, "does my reply help > the poster? Does it belong on debian-user?" Unfortunately for some > the mind set is, "I'm a user of Debian so any opinion I wish to post > is on-topic on debian-user". I appreciate I have also failed at this > from time to time and I include myself in the list of those who > should do better. Ways of making us do better are needed. Everyone "fails" some times and according to some criteria. I believe things work out generally if we keep trying. But then, I'm said to be an optimist :-) Cheers - t
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-08 23:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CJYGt-6PC-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238370 |
Hello, On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:00:55PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote: > > To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue > > for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a > > Stack Overflow-like site [...] > > I stringly disagree on that one. There's tooling and there's > politeness, and they are, IMO, uncorrelated variables. A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their heads and debating such into the ground. That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer. > Some people are rather wired towards "forum style", others more > towards "mail style" -- and I think that's why this kind of > discussion tends to come up time and again. I haven't advocated for a forum. What I've suggested is that a discussion list tends to promote discussion, not user support. > > The main reason why I see mailing lists as inappropriate for user > > support is that there is a severe signal to noise ratio problem. > > I think you'll get the same on unmoderated fora. …which, again, I haven't suggested. I don't know why you keep going back to the idea of web forums. It's obvious that a web discussion forum would have the same problems as an email discussion list, if it were unmoderated. My only suggestion was a Stack Overflow-style question-answer site. Those aren't discussion forums. Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there is too much of here. Have a look at https://askubuntu.com/ to get some sort of idea, since that is at least a Debian derivative. But as I said, it has been tried before and I think won't/can't succeed without buy-in from the project. > I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume. It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue for users new and old. I don't think that both audiences can be catered for in the same place and I really think that we could and should do better. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-09 02:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CK11D-8lx-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238371 |
On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:00:55PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote: >> > To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue >> > for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a >> > Stack Overflow-like site [...] >> >> I stringly disagree on that one. There's tooling and there's >> politeness, and they are, IMO, uncorrelated variables. > > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their > heads and debating such into the ground. We all have our perceptions. This would appear to be an overly dramatic one. `posting every thought that comes into their > heads and debating such into the ground' - really? If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be more concise than that. > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer. Not in the reality I inhabit. I'm a member of a couple of stack sires, and I have witnessed many a humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness. >> Some people are rather wired towards "forum style", others more >> towards "mail style" -- and I think that's why this kind of >> discussion tends to come up time and again. > > I haven't advocated for a forum. What I've suggested is that a > discussion list tends to promote discussion, not user support. How do you get the one without the other? It is possible to have both and, as I have stated in the past, without some level of discussion, there is very little in the aspect of community promotion. I believe that's every bit as important. Human beings are pack animals, with a need for interaction in any social context. To stifle that, unnecessarily, would be a major step toward making the list unproductive in everybody's view except for those who delight in putting their mental straitjacket on in the mornings. The sort of personality (or lack of it) wh would see this discussion, for example, as `unproductive and undesireable'. >> > The main reason why I see mailing lists as inappropriate for user >> > support is that there is a severe signal to noise ratio problem. There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable - within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all of 5 seconds. >> I think you'll get the same on unmoderated fora. > > …which, again, I haven't suggested. I don't know why you keep going > back to the idea of web forums. It's obvious that a web discussion > forum would have the same problems as an email discussion list, if > it were unmoderated. > > My only suggestion was a Stack Overflow-style question-answer site. > Those aren't discussion forums. > > Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there > is too much of here. It depends on what you see as `off-topic'. Your view is yours, and not necessarily everybody's. Do you see the value in discussion, yet? > Have a look at https://askubuntu.com/ to get some sort of idea, > since that is at least a Debian derivative. But as I said, it has > been tried before and I think won't/can't succeed without buy-in > from the project. > >> I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume. > > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion > group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue > for users new and old. Something it has been doing very well at for some considerable time now. > I don't think that both audiences can be catered for in the same > place and I really think that we could and should do better. It's only the one audience, and I have observed almost all members of that audience indulging in what you see as `both' forms of discussion, where I don't, seeing all discussion as constructive and just different aspects of the same stream. Cheers! Harry. -- `Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth'. -- Albert Einstein
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-10 00:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CKltp-4tC-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238373 |
Hello, On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 05:01:50PM -0700, Weaver wrote: > On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote: > > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I > > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint > > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their > > heads and debating such into the ground. > > We all have our perceptions. > This would appear to be an overly dramatic one. > `posting every thought that comes into their > > heads and debating such into the ground' - really? > If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be > more concise than that. I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to find; there's just so many of them. If you can't see this then I just have to assume that you don't find the current situation to be a problem, in which case I don't know how to convince you that there's a problem. It doesn't seem like me listing out sub-threads that have departed far from anything Debian-related would convince you, and would probably only serve to feel like an attack on individual posters. I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for. > > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site > > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer. > > Not in the reality I inhabit. > I'm a member of a couple of stack sires, and I have witnessed many a > humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness. Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a better experience both for the question asker and later researchers who come across it. By contrast on a mailing list like this it's about who shouts loudest and most often, and that's even before the posts start appearing that are not even about Debian at all. There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists. > There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those > conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate > notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable - > within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all > of 5 seconds. New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a huge impediment to getting their problems solved. People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift through it all. It seems really odd to take the position that the primary venue for user support must be drowned in content that is not about use of Debian, because anyone who isn't interested in that can just filter it away. > > Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there > > is too much of here. > > It depends on what you see as `off-topic'. Your view is yours, and not > necessarily everybody's. > Do you see the value in discussion, yet? I get that everyone has different opinions about what this list is for. I think I'm being pretty clear in expressing the opinion that it is for user support, not general debate. It's not a problem when there's a slight amount of debate around the problems and solutions. It is a problem when threads shift entirely away from the use of Debian. Again, I really don't want to have to call out specific recent incidents as I think they're easy to recognise. I'm not saying that I think such conversations shouldn't be had, anywhere, just that the primary place for support shouldn't be the place that they happen, and that I think this could best be achieved by not using a discussion list for it in the first place. So no, I don't see the value of such wide-ranging discussion in the support venue, even having given a fair amount of it over a reasonably long period of time. There is nothing that has convinced me that diverging off into some topic not at all related to use of Debian has value here. I've done it myself, regretted it later, it's usually been a product of frustration and I wish it wasn't tolerated here from me or anyone else. > > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion > > group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything > > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue > > for users new and old. > > Something it has been doing very well at for some considerable time now. This sub-thread asking for suggestions on how to improve the list could have had a very short answer from you if your opinion on that is "nothing, it's all fine". Clearly not everyone considers it to be doing very well. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-10 01:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CKmz7-5kM-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238399 |
On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 05:01:50PM -0700, Weaver wrote: >> On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote: >> > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I >> > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint >> > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their >> > heads and debating such into the ground. >> >> We all have our perceptions. >> This would appear to be an overly dramatic one. >> `posting every thought that comes into their >> > heads and debating such into the ground' - really? >> If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be >> more concise than that. > > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to > find; there's just so many of them. That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it accurately. Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'. > If you can't see this then I just have to assume that you don't find > the current situation to be a problem, in which case I don't know > how to convince you that there's a problem. It doesn't seem like me > listing out sub-threads that have departed far from anything > Debian-related would convince you, and would probably only serve to > feel like an attack on individual posters. There may be any number of threads that do not meet your parameters of `Debian-related'. That doesn't mean they have no relevant standing in the situation. Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything not Debian related within each email? Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not `Debian-related'? Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of. > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for. And who isn't? >> > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site >> > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer. >> >> Not in the reality I inhabit. >> I'm a member of a couple of stack overflow sites, and I have witnessed many a >> humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness. > > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers > who come across it. No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than `moderators'. The format changes nothing. Where you get a focal point of communication interaction, you wll always have both positive and negative interaction, determining which is which very much a thing of individual perception. You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place. You can't stop social interaction unless you are a member of the android demographic. > By contrast on a mailing list like this it's about who shouts > loudest and most often, For exaple, you might see that point as relevant, while I see it as a prime example of prevarication in an attempt to achieve a personal, preferred aim at the expense of the group. > and that's even before the posts start > appearing that are not even about Debian at all. Debian is open source. It's a product of community. It's strength comes from that. I should not like to see it stifled. Many different kinds of personalities contribute to it, as well as the accepted standards of any number of traditions and cultures. If you think the situation is not good now, you should have been around then. The flame wars were devastating, and I can recall one senior developer stating the list was unusable, at one stage, and he was right. But then the issue got sorted and things got back to normal. > There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a > search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack > Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists. Quite often that's the case, and so it should be. Keeping resources to just one would have to be as much of a definition of mental laziness as any other. That should be happening before turning to the list for an answer from another user. >> There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those >> conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate >> notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable - >> within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all >> of 5 seconds. > > New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a > huge impediment to getting their problems solved. If they can't handle the most basic use of a mail agent, they can't do anything. Your overuse of adjectives doesn't supply your argument with much in the way of credibility. A _huge_ impediment, is it? I was getting involved with open source before XP came out, with a Debian based distro called Libranet. I din't even know about mailing lists. I battled away with cfdisc for ages over multiple install attempts, but in the end, I learnt about partitioning, by myself. > People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift > through it all. `have to sift through it all' and `They are not hard to > find; there's just so many of them' - do make up your mind. There's not much sifting involved. A stress has always been placed on accurate, specific subject lines, and I have never found it all that difficult to find relevant threads. > It seems really odd to take the position that the primary venue for > user support must be drowned in content that is not about use of > Debian, because anyone who isn't interested in that can just filter > it away. No, it is not `drowned'. That is another blatant misrepresentation. >> > Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there >> > is too much of here. >> >> It depends on what you see as `off-topic'. Your view is yours, and not >> necessarily everybody's. >> Do you see the value in discussion, yet? > > I get that everyone has different opinions about what this list is > for. I think I'm being pretty clear in expressing the opinion that > it is for user support, not general debate. It's not a problem when > there's a slight amount of debate around the problems and solutions. > It is a problem when threads shift entirely away from the use of > Debian. Again, I really don't want to have to call out specific > recent incidents as I think they're easy to recognise. Yes, they generally have the addition of something ;like `Off-Topic' in the header. So, if they're easy to recognise, where's the problem? > I'm not saying that I think such conversations shouldn't be had, > anywhere, just that the primary place for support shouldn't be the > place that they happen, and that I think this could best be achieved > by not using a discussion list for it in the first place. As far as I'm aware, ths is the point where the Debian community interacts. Yes, it's a primary place for support, as well. > So no, I don't see the value of such wide-ranging discussion in the > support venue, even having given a fair amount of it over a > reasonably long period of time. There is nothing that has convinced > me that diverging off into some topic not at all related to use of > Debian has value here. I've done it myself, regretted it later, it's > usually been a product of frustration and I wish it wasn't tolerated > here from me or anyone else. Because you can't see the value in it, doesn't mean the value isn't there. >> > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion >> > group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything >> > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue >> > for users new and old. Are you referring to Deban-User, here, or some avant-garde anarchic chaos club? >> Something it has been doing very well at for some considerable time now. > > This sub-thread asking for suggestions on how to improve the list > could have had a very short answer from you if your opinion on that > is "nothing, it's all fine". Clearly not everyone considers it to be > doing very well. It could have been just as short if you had said something like: `I don't agree'. But neither response caters to full expression, does it? Cheers! Harry. -- `Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth'. -- Albert Einstein
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-10 03:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CKohz-68n-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238401 |
Hello, On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:06:43PM -0700, Weaver wrote: > On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote: > > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads > > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to > > find; there's just so many of them. > > That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the > situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage > required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it > accurately. > Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'. I'm saying that the number of off-topics posts here is often well in excess of the number of on-topic ones, and that I think it isn't conducive to user support. And by "off-topic" I'm not talking about just replying in a conversational tone, or asking for clarifications, or suggesting other solutions or anything like that. I mean posts that become totally unrelated to Debian and its use. For the purposes of this conversation I do think these are easy to spot. I do understand that you feel these aren't an issue. I'm just saying why I don't think there's a need to specifically call these out right now. > Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything not Debian related > within each email? I think it would be best if such things were not posted here, yes, not while this is the support venue. > Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not > `Debian-related'? I would really have hoped that it would be obvious that I'm not asking for people to be impolite or discourteous; that I'm not talking about normal conversational responses to support queries being banned. I'm talking about things that have drifted completely away from being about Debian. > Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total > lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of. > > > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current > > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do > > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my > > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for. > > And who isn't? Well, this bit was in response to you saying, "if there's a problem that requires resolution…" so was just me reiterating that I do think there is, but that I do understand that plenty of people don't think there is. i.e. this has not just come out of nowhere. > > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through > > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a > > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers > > who come across it. > > No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than > `moderators'. > The format changes nothing. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. When I said "moderated" here, I meant by the people doing the moderation, which on a Stack site is mostly the community. I do find that quite effective in making poor answers and disruptive comments less visible on such sites, so I can't agree that the format changes nothing. > You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might > see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place. The idea that it would be necessary to put a clown in their place publicly and with the same visibility as other posts in the thread is something that feels to me most toxic in a support environment. We've all been there - someone posts a silly, inadvisable, ill-thought out or downright incorrect response to a support question. One feels compelled to post a correction. Hopefully one manages to do so without being overly offensive or cruel, but putting a clown in their place can go that way sometimes. It's good that the correction was delivered, less so if it ended up being delivered in an offensive way, but even after that, the correction just has the weight of one email in a thread. Often times, the worst clowns are convinced they aren't clowns at all. They will double down on their wrongness, and they can post just as often as you can. A lot of the time it needs experienced users to spot what is a good answer (or good advice) and what is bad. It doesn't work so well to go by who delivers the most devastating come-back or who hammers their point home most forcefully or most often. The Stack sites I frequent do seem to benefit from poor quality answers and comments being moderated away. People can still engage in back and forth conflict but what most people consider to be the best answers float to the top. There isn't much need to place clowns in their place for all to see and I think the support experience is better for it. > > There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a > > search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack > > Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists. > > Quite often that's the case, and so it should be. If you agree with this point, what is your opposition to such a thing being the primary user support venue of Debian? As in direct support queries to such a thing and leave debian-user basically as it is? > > New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a > > huge impediment to getting their problems solved. > > If they can't handle the most basic use of a mail agent, they can't do > anything. This feels really elitist and can be used to counter any attempt to make things easier or better for unskilled users. You know, just because we paid our dues over the years having a hard time gathering knowledge, it doesn't mean that everyone else should too, almost as if it's some sort of trial to check they are worthy. I feel that's generally true but even moreso when you consider that by making it hard for people who aren't like you, you tend to only recruit people who are like you. If it's desirable to have some sort of exclusive club of users who put enough effort in to have earned the right to ask questions and participate in debate then fair enough, no reason why that can't exist. But should it be where the Debian project directs its users first and foremost? In terms of numbers of questions asked and answers accepted per day, Ask Ubuntu does some really good numbers you know. > > People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift > > through it all. > > `have to sift through it all' and `They are not hard to > find; there's just so many of them' - do make up your mind. Come on now. Imagine coming across an unfamiliar list's archive, seeing a subject line that might be related to a problem you're having, and then tens or hundreds of responses that seem to diverge away from that topic but you can never be quite sure whether they will return or not. That's a very different scenario from me saying, "just look back through the list recently and you'll find many examples of completely off-topic postings". > they generally have the addition of something ;like `Off-Topic' in > the header. > So, if they're easy to recognise, where's the problem? I don't believe that new users do find them easy to recognise, nor that casual archive browsers appreciate the diversions from topic. I don't believe that new users do appreciate having some irrelevant part of their post picked up on and turned into sprawling sub-thread that isn't even about Debian let alone their question. I don't believe that most users benefit when such threads go way out of control and result in code of conduct violations that are never addressed. I think there is a relatively small group, out of the thousands subscribed here, that enjoy those diversions and perpetuating them, and that it really only serves them. So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be good to try separating the user support from the debate club. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-10 03:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CKorf-6qW-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238405 |
On 10-08-2021 10:59, Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:06:43PM -0700, Weaver wrote: >> On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote: >> > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads >> > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to >> > find; there's just so many of them. >> >> That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the >> situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage >> required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it >> accurately. >> Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'. > > I'm saying that the number of off-topics posts here is often well in > excess of the number of on-topic ones, and that I think it isn't > conducive to user support. > > And by "off-topic" I'm not talking about just replying in a > conversational tone, or asking for clarifications, or suggesting > other solutions or anything like that. I mean posts that become > totally unrelated to Debian and its use. > > For the purposes of this conversation I do think these are easy to > spot. I do understand that you feel these aren't an issue. I'm just > saying why I don't think there's a need to specifically call these > out right now. > >> Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything not Debian related >> within each email? > > I think it would be best if such things were not posted here, yes, > not while this is the support venue. > >> Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not >> `Debian-related'? > > I would really have hoped that it would be obvious that I'm not > asking for people to be impolite or discourteous; that I'm not > talking about normal conversational responses to support queries > being banned. > > I'm talking about things that have drifted completely away from > being about Debian. > >> Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total >> lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of. >> >> > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current >> > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do >> > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my >> > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for. >> >> And who isn't? > > Well, this bit was in response to you saying, "if there's a problem > that requires resolution…" so was just me reiterating that I do > think there is, but that I do understand that plenty of people don't > think there is. i.e. this has not just come out of nowhere. > >> > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through >> > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a >> > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers >> > who come across it. >> >> No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than >> `moderators'. >> The format changes nothing. > > I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. When I said > "moderated" here, I meant by the people doing the moderation, > which on a Stack site is mostly the community. > > I do find that quite effective in making poor answers and disruptive > comments less visible on such sites, so I can't agree that the > format changes nothing. > >> You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might >> see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place. > > The idea that it would be necessary to put a clown in their place > publicly and with the same visibility as other posts in the thread > is something that feels to me most toxic in a support environment. > > We've all been there - someone posts a silly, inadvisable, > ill-thought out or downright incorrect response to a support > question. One feels compelled to post a correction. Hopefully one > manages to do so without being overly offensive or cruel, but > putting a clown in their place can go that way sometimes. It's good > that the correction was delivered, less so if it ended up being > delivered in an offensive way, but even after that, the correction > just has the weight of one email in a thread. > > Often times, the worst clowns are convinced they aren't clowns at > all. They will double down on their wrongness, and they can post > just as often as you can. > > A lot of the time it needs experienced users to spot what is a > good answer (or good advice) and what is bad. It doesn't work so > well to go by who delivers the most devastating come-back or who > hammers their point home most forcefully or most often. > > The Stack sites I frequent do seem to benefit from poor quality > answers and comments being moderated away. People can still engage > in back and forth conflict but what most people consider to be the > best answers float to the top. There isn't much need to place clowns > in their place for all to see and I think the support experience is > better for it. > >> > There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a >> > search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack >> > Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists. >> >> Quite often that's the case, and so it should be. > > If you agree with this point, what is your opposition to such a > thing being the primary user support venue of Debian? As in direct > support queries to such a thing and leave debian-user basically as > it is? > >> > New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a >> > huge impediment to getting their problems solved. >> >> If they can't handle the most basic use of a mail agent, they can't do >> anything. > > This feels really elitist and can be used to counter any attempt to > make things easier or better for unskilled users. > > You know, just because we paid our dues over the years having a hard > time gathering knowledge, it doesn't mean that everyone else should > too, almost as if it's some sort of trial to check they are worthy. > I feel that's generally true but even moreso when you consider that > by making it hard for people who aren't like you, you tend to only > recruit people who are like you. > > If it's desirable to have some sort of exclusive club of users who > put enough effort in to have earned the right to ask questions and > participate in debate then fair enough, no reason why that can't > exist. But should it be where the Debian project directs its users > first and foremost? > > In terms of numbers of questions asked and answers accepted per > day, Ask Ubuntu does some really good numbers you know. > >> > People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift >> > through it all. >> >> `have to sift through it all' and `They are not hard to >> find; there's just so many of them' - do make up your mind. > > Come on now. Imagine coming across an unfamiliar list's archive, > seeing a subject line that might be related to a problem you're > having, and then tens or hundreds of responses that seem to diverge > away from that topic but you can never be quite sure whether they > will return or not. > > That's a very different scenario from me saying, "just look back > through the list recently and you'll find many examples of > completely off-topic postings". > >> they generally have the addition of something ;like `Off-Topic' in >> the header. >> So, if they're easy to recognise, where's the problem? > > I don't believe that new users do find them easy to recognise, nor > that casual archive browsers appreciate the diversions from topic. > > I don't believe that new users do appreciate having some irrelevant > part of their post picked up on and turned into sprawling > sub-thread that isn't even about Debian let alone their question. > > I don't believe that most users benefit when such threads go way out > of control and result in code of conduct violations that are never > addressed. > > I think there is a relatively small group, out of the thousands > subscribed here, that enjoy those diversions and perpetuating them, > and that it really only serves them. > > So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be > good to try separating the user support from the debate club. I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time. The goal posts are moved around at convenience, rather in than any serious manner at resolving an issue that is minor, if even existent. Cheers! Harry. -- `Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth'. -- Albert Einstein
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-10 03:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CKoUh-6B1-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238406 |
Hello, On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 06:05:58PM -0700, Weaver wrote: > > So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be > > good to try separating the user support from the debate club. > > I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time. I'm sorry you feel that way. It has felt quite frustrating having to repeat myself when I thought I was being clear about what I meant. But, I do believe that at least you have got across how you see the purpose and nature of debian-user, so we have at least seen some more perspectives - thanks! My last reply was sent before I saw this one, and is not an attempt to prolong a conversation that you don't want to have. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-11 03:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CKL4u-3xf-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238408 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Hi, On 2021-08-09 9:37 p.m., Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 06:05:58PM -0700, Weaver wrote: >>> So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be >>> good to try separating the user support from the debate club. >> >> I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time. > Great proof of being open-minded when you consider a conversation "a waste of time" because you ain't able to convince someone or make them change their mind. A bit of irony for someone hoping to make this a better place, with a more inclusive toward beginner approach. > I'm sorry you feel that way. It has felt quite frustrating having to > repeat myself when I thought I was being clear about what I meant. I think it would be hard to express yourself better than what you always do in all the messages you sent, the "moderation" you do and the fire you extinguish. > But, I do believe that at least you have got across how you see the > purpose and nature of debian-user, so we have at least seen some > more perspectives - thanks! > > My last reply was sent before I saw this one, and is not an attempt > to prolong a conversation that you don't want to have. > > Cheers, > Andy > Thanks Andy for the great work you do. Thanks for the times you reminded myself, in a polite manner, that I may have went off track with the words I used. Sincerely, -- Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside -Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-11 13:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CKUU9-1U8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238473 |
Hello, On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 09:12:08PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > On 2021-08-09 9:37 p.m., Andy Smith wrote: > > I'm sorry you feel that way. It has felt quite frustrating having to > > repeat myself when I thought I was being clear about what I meant. > I think it would be hard to express yourself better than what you always > do in all the messages you sent, the "moderation" you do and the fire > you extinguish. I think you've possibly mistaken me for Andy Cater who posts the monthly conduct reminder thing. I thought I better correct this as it would be wrong for me to take credit for moderating and extinguishing that I don't think I've done, as well as to possibly associate Andy Cater with my suggestion of not doing support stuff on debian-user. Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting > The optimum programming team size is 1. Has Jurassic Park taught us nothing? — pfilandr
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| From | SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-16 14:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CMJUC-7sO-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238406 |
On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 06:05:58PM -0700, Weaver wrote: > I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time. > The goal posts are moved around at convenience, rather in than any > serious manner at resolving an issue that is minor, if even existent. > Cheers! > > Harry. Oh it exists Harry! I've been on this list (usually lurking) for almost 20 years. The off topic posts often go on to enormous lengths often withouit a subject change (which itself is problematic). Way too much noise to signal ration lately, and it's often a handful of users who think this is their debate club. I'm for this being an on topic user support list and that posters/users that want to talk off topic be sanctioned appropriately. This list through the eyes of a beginner wanting help has been atrocius lately. Can you imagine trying to search for a given subject through the archives and having to wade through all the noise in these mega threads in case something relevant is in them? Ridicoulous. BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member, but it seems has had little uptake. So I agree completely with Andy Smith's (and others) statements and support this list being actively monitored for such off topic breaches. It would make the list what it's supposed to be, and make the archives better quality when searching for terms.
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| From | Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-16 16:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CMLto-8um-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238818 |
On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote: >BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member, >but it seems has had little uptake. I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was turned off in around 2018. The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are here: https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mbox/ -- Please do not CC me for listmail. 👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland ✎ jmtd@debian.org 🔗 https://jmtd.net
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| From | SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-17 17:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian] |
| Message-ID | <CN8Jk-6rq-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238821 |
On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 03:01:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote: > > BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member, > > but it seems has had little uptake. > > I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it > for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the > Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was > turned off in around 2018. > > The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are > here: > > https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mbox/ > Thanks for the update Jonathan.
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-17 21:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]) |
| Message-ID | <CNctz-Ft-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238881 |
On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:54:34 AM SDA wrote: > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 03:01:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote: > > > BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member, > > > but it seems has had little uptake. > > > > I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it > > for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the > > Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was > > turned off in around 2018. > > > > The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are > > here: > > > > https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mb > > ox/ > > Thanks for the update Jonathan. Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a lot of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it. Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now puzzling over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120 maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be? (I'd give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off- topic mail list.
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| From | Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-17 21:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) |
| Message-ID | <CNcWB-15A-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238905 |
On 18-08-2021 04:56, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:54:34 AM SDA wrote: >> On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 03:01:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: >> > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote: >> > > BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member, >> > > but it seems has had little uptake. >> > >> > I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it >> > for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the >> > Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was >> > turned off in around 2018. >> > >> > The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are >> > here: >> > >> > https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mb >> > ox/ >> >> Thanks for the update Jonathan. > > Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a lot > of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it. > > Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now puzzling > over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED > flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120 > maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be? (I'd > give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off- > topic mail list. ... and I hope another Debian-user will be able to help you. Cheers! Harry. -- `Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth'. -- Albert Einstein
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-08-17 21:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) |
| Message-ID | <CNd6i-18B-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #238908 |
On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 03:26:19 PM Weaver wrote: > On 18-08-2021 04:56, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > > Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now > > puzzling over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to > > power an LED flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery > > tested to hold 120 maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can > > that possibly be? (I'd give a few more details if I was actually > > askinjg the question on that off- topic mail list. > > ... and I hope another Debian-user will be able to help you. > Cheers! Thanks, I think I puzzled it out ;-) I guess the measure of the charge (18 maHrs vs. 120 maHrs) is not the charge "contained" in the battery, but instead the amount of charge required to bring it up to the desired charge (presumably by voltage) -- my guess is the AA battery is in much better condition than the AAA battery and requires less charge to bring it up to "full charge". PS: s/battery/cell/g
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