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how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?

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  how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Gregor Zattler <telegraph@gmx.net> - 2021-04-28 20:30 +0200
    Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Kushal Kumaran <kushal@locationd.net> - 2021-04-29 03:40 +0200
      Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-04-29 09:10 +0200
        Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 09:40 +0200
          Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2021-04-29 14:20 +0200
            Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 14:30 +0200
              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-04-29 14:40 +0200
                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-04-29 16:30 +0200
              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2021-04-29 15:10 +0200
                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2021-04-29 15:20 +0200
                  Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 16:50 +0200
                    Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-04-29 17:50 +0200
                      Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-29 21:40 +0200
                        Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 21:50 +0200
                        Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-04-30 02:30 +0200
                          Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-30 08:50 +0200
                            Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-04-30 15:30 +0200
                              Free vs proprietary [was: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 /  davmail?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-30 16:20 +0200
                                Re: Free vs proprietary [was: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?] deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-04-30 22:20 +0200
                          Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-30 10:20 +0200
                            Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-30 10:40 +0200
                              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-30 12:40 +0200
                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 16:50 +0200
              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-04-29 21:50 +0200
                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 21:50 +0200
                  Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-04-29 23:50 +0200
                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-30 10:10 +0200
                  Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-04-30 21:50 +0200
                    Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-30 22:20 +0200
                      Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-01 09:30 +0200
                        Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-05-01 10:30 +0200
                          Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-05-01 10:40 +0200
                          Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-01 12:10 +0200
                            Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-05-01 17:50 +0200
                              [Off-topic] When in Rome... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-01 18:00 +0200
                                Re: [Off-topic] When in Rome... deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-01 19:10 +0200
                        Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Ángel <debian-user@debian.16bits.net> - 2021-05-03 01:50 +0200
                          OT Reading brainwaves [was: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365  / davmail?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-03 09:10 +0200
                  Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-04-30 23:30 +0200
                    Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-05-01 09:40 +0200
                      Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-01 10:20 +0200
                      Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-05-03 10:30 +0200
                        Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2021-05-03 16:10 +0200
                          Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2021-05-04 19:10 +0200
                        Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-05-03 16:50 +0200
                          Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-05-03 17:30 +0200
                            Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-03 18:30 +0200
                              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-03 18:40 +0200
                                [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-03 19:00 +0200
                                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-05-03 21:40 +0200
                                  [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-03 21:50 +0200
                                    Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-05-03 22:10 +0200
                                      Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 /  davmail? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-05-03 22:40 +0200
                                    Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-05-04 18:10 +0200
                                      Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-04 18:40 +0200
              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-05-01 09:10 +0200
                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-01 10:30 +0200
            Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2021-04-29 15:10 +0200
              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2021-04-29 15:30 +0200
              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-04-29 21:20 +0200
                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2021-05-27 15:20 +0200
              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-30 15:30 +0200
            Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2021-04-29 15:20 +0200
              Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2021-04-29 15:50 +0200
                Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Michael Grant <mgrant@grant.org> - 2021-04-29 16:40 +0200
                  Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 /          davmail? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-04-29 19:00 +0200
                    Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Kushal Kumaran <kushal@locationd.net> - 2021-04-30 05:20 +0200
                      Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 /          davmail? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-04-30 18:30 +0200
    Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Jonathan Siegle <jsiegle@psu.edu> - 2021-04-29 14:40 +0200
      Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 14:50 +0200
      Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail? Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2021-05-27 15:30 +0200

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#234589 — how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?

Dear debian users, the company which employs me uses MS 365
(former Office 365) in a federated setup where users are
taken from MS to the companys login server for
authentication.

Which means that I have to authenticate via a web form with
the company's login server.  MS does not know the passwords
instead hashes are exchanged between the servers.  Some
clients (Outlook) are able to cache successful
authentication for days but also need to relay
authentication to the company's server.

I would like to use IMAP to access email in order to
circumvent Outlook, but AFAIK there is no way for fetchmail
or other command line tools to authenticate via web page and
use the IMAP Server then (Thunderbird is able to do this but
I don't want to use Thunderbird).

I hoped davmail would be able to do that but I have no clue
how to tell davmail to authenticate in this way.  AFAIK the
only way is to provide a password which does not apply here.

Any ideas, help?

Ciao; Gregor
--
 -... --- .-. . -.. ..--.. ...-.-

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#234601

On Wed, Apr 28 2021 at 08:20:37 PM, Gregor Zattler <telegraph@gmx.net> wrote:
> Dear debian users, the company which employs me uses MS 365
> (former Office 365) in a federated setup where users are
> taken from MS to the companys login server for
> authentication.
>
> Which means that I have to authenticate via a web form with
> the company's login server.  MS does not know the passwords
> instead hashes are exchanged between the servers.  Some
> clients (Outlook) are able to cache successful
> authentication for days but also need to relay
> authentication to the company's server.
>
> I would like to use IMAP to access email in order to
> circumvent Outlook, but AFAIK there is no way for fetchmail
> or other command line tools to authenticate via web page and
> use the IMAP Server then (Thunderbird is able to do this but
> I don't want to use Thunderbird).
>
> I hoped davmail would be able to do that but I have no clue
> how to tell davmail to authenticate in this way.  AFAIK the
> only way is to provide a password which does not apply here.
>
> Any ideas, help?
>

I use my work email address as the username and the work password along
with it when using imap/smtp with davmail.  There are multiple sign-in
options (one of which was selected by your employer) listed at
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/active-directory/hybrid/plan-connect-user-signin,
but I think IMAP should work regardless.  My workplace uses federated
authentication, and davmail works fine for me.

Have you tried and failed to authenticate using your email address and
password?

-- 
regards,
kushal

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#234604

Kushal Kumaran wrote:

> I think IMAP should work regardless.  My workplace uses federated
> authentication, and davmail works fine for me.

I think it depends how it is setup and what policy applies. Especially this
3D authentication is not likely to be implemented in the opensource
software and non of it works for me.

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#234607

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On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 09:04:35AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> Kushal Kumaran wrote:
> 
> > I think IMAP should work regardless.  My workplace uses federated
> > authentication, and davmail works fine for me.
> 
> I think it depends how it is setup and what policy applies. Especially this
> 3D authentication is not likely to be implemented in the opensource
> software and non of it works for me.

Yes. Half-a-life ago, while in dystopian Bigcorp environment, I had
to bribe Windows admins to keep up Outlook's IMAP with... NTLM auth.
Fetchmail worked fine [1] with that.

But the '365 winds got stronger and stronger, accompanied by a pretty
mail-hostile campaign by Microsoft vendors. Luckily I quit at about
that time.

Perhaps Someone (TM) will have to do the heroic effort the folks
at Youtube-dl do, to jump through endless nightmarish webby hoops
to get at the real content (one weak consolation may be that it's
probably JSON these days and not HTML, so it looks a bit more
like data ;-)

Cheers

[1] Something I still feel tears of gratitude towards fetchmail
   folks. As for all those free software folks doing crazy things.

 - t

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#234608

Dystopian is right.  Our organization, using O365, has moved to
"multi-factor authentication" without consultation and I can no longer
use gnus, for instance.  Absolutely horrible.
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid

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#234609

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On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:11:08PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> Dystopian is right.  Our organization, using O365, has moved to
> "multi-factor authentication" without consultation and I can no longer
> use gnus, for instance.  Absolutely horrible.

That means you've to carry a funny dongle with you all the time?
Or is the "second factor" that oh-so-secure "smart" phone?

(FWIW, I could offer some resistance by making a point of carrying
around a "classical" dumb phone, usually the cheapest I could get
hold of -- f.ex. my current one doesn't even have a camera; whenever
someone came up with some clever schema involving a pocket computer,
I usually put mine on the table... the "oh"s and the sad faces
following that moment were worth the whole thing, and usually killed
further discussions ;-)

BTW I'm not really a luddite [1]. I'd consider a smart phone if I
had a comparable control over its guts as I have of my laptop, take
or give. Those options are, alas, a tad to pricey for my current
income.

Cheers

Just a tiny bit ;-)

 - t

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#234610

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On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:27:07PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 14:21, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > That means you've to carry a funny dongle with you all the time?
> > Or is the "second factor" that oh-so-secure "smart" phone?
> 
> Three choices for second factor:
> 
> 1. use MS's own app for authentication. Yeah, right.

Yeah ;-)

> 2. txt message to your phone (so need not be "smart")

You know those can be (and have been) hi-jacked, don't you?

> I've gone with 2 as that works most effectively wherever I may be
> (e.g. out of country, once things return to normal, assuming they
> do...).

Yes, looks like the least obnoxious. Perhaps one could McGyver something
around it with a GSM stick playing mobile phone? ;-)

> And to think that email was once a simple yet effective tool.  It's been
> hijacked.

I'm not very much into conspiracy theories, but here, I'm convinced that
the "big players" want to downright kill mail because there's no way
for them to monetise it.

At the time O365 was desperately trying to enter that BigCorp I talked
about, there was a buzzing meme in the hierarchy's mid- to high echelons,
on how "email is kind of old and ineffective". I'm *sure* that buzz had
been planted into their ears by Wormtong^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H uh, the Microsoft
sales rep. After all, they know how to talk to decision makers. They are
paid for that.

Cheers
 - t

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#234623

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On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:53:48PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 14:38, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:27:07PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> >> 2. txt message to your phone (so need not be "smart")
> >
> > You know those can be (and have been) hi-jacked, don't you?
> 
> Yeah. :-(
> 
> What really gets me is the hypocrisy of the whole situation.  I've been
> pushing to have people use public key encryption but they insist on
> sending emails with confidential information in plain text.  Oh, "MFA
> will make everything secure"...

Yes, but 2FA is just about getting the human factor out of the loop.
Put yourself into Google's or Facebook's shoes. All those users who
forget their passwords (or even worse, come up with easily guessable
ones, or use the same password across several services, yadda, yadda).

This is just support burden which diminishes margin. Now there would
be two ways out of that: educate your users or keep them dumb and
take them out of the loop. Which one aligns better with their business
plan? After all, for them "users" are turnips, potatos or cattle:
the product, not the customer.

> > I'm not very much into conspiracy theories [...]

> Everybody needs to be in those walled gardens: Facebook, et al. :-(

That's why I think that they /at least/ "let it happen happily".
Nudging it here and there would make even more sense, strategically.

Not poison the well to sell bottled water, but perhaps sliding
something disgusting in there, from time to time.

Cheers
 - t

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#234614

On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:27:07PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> And to think that email was once a simple yet effective tool.  It's been
> hijacked.

Spammers took control of it years ago.  It's been dying off, slowly.

While we're swapping anecdotes, I'll give what limited insight I have
into my own workplace's handling of email.  For starters, some of you
may have noticed that I changed my email address on this mailing list.
This is because of policy changes at work that made it effectively
impossible for me to read technical emails via my previous address.
So now I'm subscribed from my personal address instead.  This will work
for me as long as I'm working primarily from home, under Covid rules.

Looking at the subject of this thread just makes me cringe inside,
because whoever is asking that question still has hope.  And that hope
is going to be crushed.

My workplace's official policy is that we are no longer allowed to have
an independent email service of our own.  Period.  Full stop.  All email
at work has to go through the corporate system, which is Microsoft.  No
exceptions.  We're not allowed to host mailboxes, we're not allowed to
receive email from the outside, and we're not allowed to send email
outside, unless it goes through their relays.

In order to continue reading debian-user at work, I would have to allow
its messages to be sent to Microsoft.  I would be reading them through
Outlook Web App.  I cannot accept this.  It's not tolerable.  So, I
unsubscribed from that address, and switched over to this one.

Some of you may be wondering why corporations have done this.  In the
case of mine, it's because of incredibly powerful fears of phishing
and malware.  Some health care providers have been shut down by it in
the last half year, and all the rest are utterly terrified.

So, the official policy is that all incoming email has to go through
the corporate system, which blocks and filters everything to an extreme
degree, in order to try to prevent a malware intrusion via email.  Access
to external mail systems like gmail is also blocked, for the same reason --
they're terrified that someone will receive a malware email at an external
address, view it via web mail in a browser on a Windows machine, and
bring a virus/worm into the corporate network that way.

(They cannot even *comprehend* that some people are not running Windows,
or reading email in anything other than Outlook or a web browser.
Not that it would matter to them.  I'm sure there are people within
that department who would outlaw all non-Windows desktops, if they
could, because they don't control them.  That department feels a need
to control literally *everything* computer-related that any employee
ever sees or touches.)

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#234617

On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 09:03, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> I'm sure there are people within that department who would outlaw all
> non-Windows desktops, if they could, because they don't control
> them.  

I've been fighting this for 25+ years at my institution, using Linux
throughout.  They've given up but the challenges continue: you must use
Outlook, Word, ...  And now we have to use SharePoint and Teams and all
these tools don't even talk to each other properly even though they come
from the same vendor.  What a joke.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid

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#234625

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On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 02:14:12PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 09:03, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > I'm sure there are people within that department who would outlaw all
> > non-Windows desktops, if they could, because they don't control
> > them.  
> 
> I've been fighting this for 25+ years at my institution, using Linux
> throughout.  They've given up but the challenges continue: you must use
> Outlook, Word, ...  And now we have to use SharePoint and Teams and all
> these tools don't even talk to each other properly even though they come
> from the same vendor.  What a joke.

Judging by your mail address, you are in academia. This is doubly sad.

Cheers
 - t

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#234629

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On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 04:39:06PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 16:43, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Judging by your mail address, you are in academia. This is doubly sad.
> 
> My experience is that academic institutions are no different than any
> other organization in these regards.  For better or for worse.

They are supposed to lead the way to the Light :)

It's their job. Or something.

Cheers
 - t

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#234634

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:45:58 +0200
tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 04:39:06PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> > On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 16:43, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:  
> > > Judging by your mail address, you are in academia. This is doubly
> > > sad.  
> > 
> > My experience is that academic institutions are no different than
> > any other organization in these regards.  For better or for worse.  
> 
> They are supposed to lead the way to the Light :)
> 
> It's their job. Or something.
> 

Sadly, no. It's not something new: back in the early 90s, Acorn was
trying to sell the Archimedes (British made, with a 32 bit ARM
processor) to schools and universities.

'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we
have to teach that.'

Of course, hindsight showed that when Windows 95 appeared a couple of
years later, it had a look and feel far more similar to RiscOs on the
Archimedes than it did to Win3, which was just a graphics shell bolted
onto single-user DOS. By the time most of these students left school and
university, Win3 had gone the way of the dodo.

A little further thought would have shown that students being taught
at that time (and ever since) would go on to spend their entire lives
adapting to newer and shinier IT systems and learning how to operate
new software every few years, so some diversity at an early age would
have been of more benefit than a monoculture.

-- 
Joe

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#234636

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On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 08:35:40PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:45:58 +0200
> tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[academia]

> > They are supposed to lead the way to the Light :)
> > 
> > It's their job. Or something.
> > 
> 
> Sadly, no. It's not something new: back in the early 90s, Acorn was
> trying to sell the Archimedes (British made, with a 32 bit ARM
> processor) to schools and universities.
> 
> 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we
> have to teach that.'

Well, I consider it as my part of a job as a taxpayer to raise a
stink about this from time to time ;-D

Cheers
 - t

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#234640

Joe wrote:

> 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we
> have to teach that.'

... because they were payed/bribed/lobbied or just fools

BTW it is still the same and it became even worse and no one is doing
anything.
Some 15y ago there were ideas to use open source in the public
administration and the schools. What happened with that? Oh, yes, Microsoft
offered very good conditions ... yes. Then those politicians, free thinkers
etc. stopped talking about opensource and the idea died slowly in the
shadow of 9/11, 2008 Lehman Bros etc.

Lets admit it ... the goal is to shovel the money to (mostly) US
corporations that do not pay any taxes anywhere, to educate the children to
be slaves of the corporations and to consume as much as possible.

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#234650

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On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 02:23:25AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> Joe wrote:
> 
> > 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we
> > have to teach that.'
> 
> ... because they were payed/bribed/lobbied or just fools
> 
> BTW it is still the same and it became even worse and no one is doing
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> anything.
  ^^^^^^^^

This is the mistake. On many levels:

1. it is an insult towards those actually doing something Like
  (random example) this electronic music composer [1] and professor
  (chosen at random among my acquaintances) who makes a point
  of using free software and introduces his audience, music
  students to it

2. it is defaetist "the others have won, anyway, just accept it
  and give up". No. Truss up your sleeves ;-)

3. it's not fun. And that is perhaps the biggest crime on the
  spirit of computing. Alan Perlis [2] must know!

4. it could be a poisonous meme planted by "our opponents".
  Where did you pick that up?

Cheers (somewhat tongue-in-cheek ;-P

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orm_Finnendahl
[2] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alan_Perlis

 - t

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#234661

tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> 1. it is an insult towards those actually doing something Like
> (random example) this electronic music composer [1] and professor
> (chosen at random among my acquaintances) who makes a point
> of using free software and introduces his audience, music
> students to it
> 

No insult tomas - it's reality. One small tree can not stand the avalanche. 

> 2. it is defaetist "the others have won, anyway, just accept it
> and give up". No. Truss up your sleeves ;-)
> 

No give up - we have to bring it to the next level - if it is not handled at
political level, you can indeed drink a glass of water and go play with
linux in your basement soon.
Also there is nothing going on in Europe anymore (at least not significant
except SuSE). There is a lot to discuss about and someone must stand for
this what happened in the past 15y - especially after 2008.

> 3. it's not fun. And that is perhaps the biggest crime on the
> spirit of computing. Alan Perlis [2] must know!
> 

What do you mean?

> 4. it could be a poisonous meme planted by "our opponents".
> Where did you pick that up?

What do you mean?

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#234666 — Free vs proprietary [was: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?]

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On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 03:24:52PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > 1. it is an insult towards those actually doing something Like
> > (random example) this electronic music composer [1] and professor
> > (chosen at random among my acquaintances) who makes a point
> > of using free software and introduces his audience, music
> > students to it

> No insult tomas - it's reality. One small tree can not stand the avalanche. 

It is -- you said "nobody is doing anything". But there are folks
doing something. Declaring them non-existent is perhaps the worst
insult possible.

Whether they succeed (or rather: how much and what they accomplish)
is, of course, up to debate.

> > 2. it is defaetist "the others have won, anyway, just accept it
> > and give up". No. Truss up your sleeves ;-)
> > 
> 
> No give up - we have to bring it to the next level - if it is not handled at
> political level, you can indeed drink a glass of water and go play with
> linux in your basement soon.

Of course it is political. That's why there are political organisations
doing good ol' lobby work. Since you talk Europe, have a look at FSFE's
campaign "Public Money, Public Code" [1], which is directed at EU
politicians to convince them that whenever public money is spent on
making code, this code should have a free license.

As those things go, "we haven't won" (you never do, in politics), but
there is some amount of success.

And there is a bunch of EU parliament MEPs who do understand those
things pretty well (look up, for example Julia Reda [2] who isn't
MEP anymore, but did an outstanding job there).

> Also there is nothing going on in Europe anymore (at least not significant
> except SuSE). There is a lot to discuss about and someone must stand for
> this what happened in the past 15y - especially after 2008.

Those things have become international anyway. SuSE is as much European
as Debian is Oceanic. This [3] isn't perhaps the newest data, but has
a nice pic. Looking at this pic, EU doesn't look underrepresented. Rather
Asia, Africa and big parts of South America, esp. Brazil (although
they have Mageia :-)

> > 3. it's not fun. And that is perhaps the biggest crime on the
> > spirit of computing. Alan Perlis [2] must know!
> > 
> 
> What do you mean?

Did you read his quote? Fun in computing is the most important (I'd
tend to agree with him). Doing free software is bound to be more
fun for many reasons (the margin of this mail is too narrow to
write them all down). Ergo...

> > 4. it could be a poisonous meme planted by "our opponents".
> > Where did you pick that up?
> 
> What do you mean?

Demoralisation [4]. A classical trick of the trade. Now I'm not
insinuating that our opponents are Nazis (the first example in the
ref is pretty unfortunate, alas) -- but that kind of trick is of
course played in any commercial endeavour. There are companies
you pay money to do that. Business as usual.

Cheers

[1] https://publiccode.eu/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Reda
[3] https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.debian-internals.html
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoralization_%28warfare%29

 - t

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#234673 — Re: Free vs proprietary [was: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?]

tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

>> No insult tomas - it's reality. One small tree can not stand the
>> avalanche.
> 
> It is -- you said "nobody is doing anything". But there are folks
> doing something. Declaring them non-existent is perhaps the worst
> insult possible.
> 
> Whether they succeed (or rather: how much and what they accomplish)
> is, of course, up to debate.
> 

OK, so you want me to say it in a different way. Despite there were some
efforts to do something, the result is zero. I hope you feel better now.

In fact I wanted to say that we should try to do something - especially
people with influence and power ... it's complicated topic, which I do not
want to discuss here and in public. With the "political correctness"
dictatorship now everywhere ... I hope you understand.
The fact is there was some effort around 2005, but it died before it was
born or if you like it was born dead. Very sad!

>> > 2. it is defaetist "the others have won, anyway, just accept it
>> > and give up". No. Truss up your sleeves ;-)
>> > 
>> 
>> No give up - we have to bring it to the next level - if it is not handled
>> at political level, you can indeed drink a glass of water and go play
>> with linux in your basement soon.
> 
> Of course it is political. That's why there are political organisations
> doing good ol' lobby work. Since you talk Europe, have a look at FSFE's
> campaign "Public Money, Public Code" [1], which is directed at EU
> politicians to convince them that whenever public money is spent on
> making code, this code should have a free license.
> 

20y - nothing! IMO this is more important than climate change, but may be it
is hard to convince the audience. I personally gave up around 2007

> As those things go, "we haven't won" (you never do, in politics), but
> there is some amount of success.
> 
> And there is a bunch of EU parliament MEPs who do understand those
> things pretty well (look up, for example Julia Reda [2] who isn't
> MEP anymore, but did an outstanding job there).
> 

Again - result is zero! Respect to the people, who try to do something
useful there, but it is the same as we talking here.

>> Also there is nothing going on in Europe anymore (at least not
>> significant except SuSE). There is a lot to discuss about and someone
>> must stand for this what happened in the past 15y - especially after
>> 2008.
> 
> Those things have become international anyway. SuSE is as much European
> as Debian is Oceanic. This [3] isn't perhaps the newest data, but has
> a nice pic. Looking at this pic, EU doesn't look underrepresented. Rather
> Asia, Africa and big parts of South America, esp. Brazil (although
> they have Mageia :-)
> 

You shift the perspective. I put the focus on what started developing open
source. I have not heard about Africa or whoever from the "under
represented" dealing with computers and free and open source software, when
it was being fought a fight here. In fact many do not even care how and why
they are able to use internet, smart phone and whatever they do. FSF and
Linux did impact the history of computing. I hope you understand what I
mean.

>> > 3. it's not fun. And that is perhaps the biggest crime on the
>> > spirit of computing. Alan Perlis [2] must know!
>> > 
>> 
>> What do you mean?
> 
> Did you read his quote? Fun in computing is the most important (I'd
> tend to agree with him). Doing free software is bound to be more
> fun for many reasons (the margin of this mail is too narrow to
> write them all down). Ergo...
> 

Ergo ... when the freedom is taken from you, you will do the computing with
the stick in the sand.

>> > 4. it could be a poisonous meme planted by "our opponents".
>> > Where did you pick that up?
>> 
>> What do you mean?
> 
> Demoralisation [4]. A classical trick of the trade. Now I'm not
> insinuating that our opponents are Nazis (the first example in the
> ref is pretty unfortunate, alas) -- but that kind of trick is of
> course played in any commercial endeavour. There are companies
> you pay money to do that. Business as usual.
> 

The freedom is being taken away - step by step, hour after hour, while we
chat here about the new face of crap MS Office and Corporates imposes on
us.

> Cheers
> 
> [1] https://publiccode.eu/
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Reda
> [3] https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.debian-internals.html
> [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoralization_%28warfare%29
> 

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#234653

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:23:25 +0200
deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:

> Joe wrote:
> 
> > 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we
> > have to teach that.'  
> 
> ... because they were payed/bribed/lobbied or just fools
> 
> BTW it is still the same and it became even worse and no one is doing
> anything.
> Some 15y ago there were ideas to use open source in the public
> administration and the schools. What happened with that? Oh, yes,
> Microsoft offered very good conditions ... yes. Then those
> politicians, free thinkers etc. stopped talking about opensource and
> the idea died slowly in the shadow of 9/11, 2008 Lehman Bros etc.
> 
> Lets admit it ... the goal is to shovel the money to (mostly) US
> corporations that do not pay any taxes anywhere, to educate the
> children to be slaves of the corporations and to consume as much as
> possible.
> 
> 

Indeed. From 2004:

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240057429/Newham-staying-with-Microsoft-is-68-cheaper-than-open-source

-- 
Joe

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