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Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my

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  Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@surfnaked.ca> - 2021-03-13 20:30 +0100
    Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-13 21:50 +0100
      Re: Google vs. DDG Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 22:00 +0100
        Re: Google vs. DDG Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-13 22:30 +0100
        Re: Google vs. DDG <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-13 23:30 +0100
          Re: Google vs. DDG ellanios82 <ellanios82@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 00:10 +0100
            Re: Google vs. DDG Jeremy Ardley <jeremy@ardley.org> - 2021-03-14 00:40 +0100
              Re: Google vs. DDG deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 10:10 +0100
                Re: Google vs. DDG Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-14 10:20 +0100
                  Re: Google vs. DDG deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 15:00 +0100
                    Re: Google vs. DDG Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-14 21:50 +0100
            Re: Google vs. DDG Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-14 00:50 +0100
              Re: Google vs. DDG ellanios82 <ellanios82@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 01:00 +0100
                Re: Google vs. DDG <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 10:00 +0100
      Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net> - 2021-03-13 22:10 +0100
      Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:40 +0100
        Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 00:00 +0100
          Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 10:10 +0100
            Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 11:00 +0100
              Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 11:20 +0100
                Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 12:20 +0100
                  Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 12:50 +0100
            Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 14:50 +0100
              Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 15:10 +0100
                Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-16 14:50 +0100
                  Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-16 15:10 +0100
                    Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-16 15:50 +0100
                      Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-03-16 16:10 +0100
                      Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-16 21:50 +0100
                        Re: Google vs. DDG ellanios82 <ellanios82@gmail.com> - 2021-03-16 22:10 +0100
                        Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-16 22:50 +0100
                          Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-17 00:20 +0100
                        Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2021-03-16 23:30 +0100
                          Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-17 00:20 +0100
                            Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-17 09:20 +0100
                    Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-28 17:10 +0200
                      Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-04-28 17:40 +0200
                      Re: Google vs. DDG Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-04-28 17:50 +0200
                        Re: Google vs. DDG <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-28 18:10 +0200
                        Re: Google vs. DDG Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-28 18:10 +0200
                          Re: Google vs. DDG Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-04-28 18:30 +0200
                            Re: Google vs. DDG Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-28 18:50 +0200
                              Re: Google vs. DDG Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-28 22:00 +0200
                      Re: Google vs. DDG <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-28 18:20 +0200
                      Re: Google vs. DDG Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-28 18:50 +0200
                      Re: Google vs. DDG Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-04-28 20:10 +0200
                      Re: Google vs. DDG davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2021-04-28 22:00 +0200
                      Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-29 02:00 +0200
                        Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Yitzhak Grossman <ygrossman@gmx.com> - 2021-04-29 04:30 +0200
                          Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 09:30 +0200
                            Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-29 16:10 +0200
                              Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-29 17:10 +0200
                      Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-02 13:00 +0200
                        Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2021-05-02 13:30 +0200
                          Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2021-05-02 14:00 +0200
                          Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-02 14:10 +0200
                            Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-02 18:00 +0200
                              Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-02 18:20 +0200
                        Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-02 14:30 +0200
                          Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2021-05-02 14:50 +0200
                            Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-02 15:20 +0200
                              Re: Google vs. DDG Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-02 15:30 +0200
                        Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2021-05-02 14:30 +0200
                          Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-05-02 16:00 +0200
                        Re: Google vs. DDG Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-02 15:10 +0200
                          Re: Google vs. DDG <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-05-02 15:20 +0200
                          Re: Google vs. DDG deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-05-02 17:50 +0200
                            Re: Google vs. DDG Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-05-02 20:20 +0200

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#234582 — Re: Google vs. DDG

>> FWIW, I'm pretty sure that such anectodal evidence is of no importance
>> because you can also come up with examples where the situation
>> is reversed.
> Can you?

I meant "you" in a very general sense: I'm pretty sure it's possible,
but no, I haven't done the necessary work (and I'm not very interested
in doing it either).

> I'm interested in examples of such cases.

I suspect that a good way to find such an example might start by trying
to think of websites which Google would specifically want to avoid
(e.g. for legal or political reasons) while Microsoft wouldn't.
This might be because it's related to a country which kicked out one of
the two while the other managed to sign some kind of agreement or
something like that.

> Incorrect (or at least outdated):
>
> DuckDuckGo gets its results from over four hundred sources. These
> include hundreds of vertical sources delivering niche Instant Answers,
> DuckDuckBot (our crawler) and crowd-sourced sites (like Wikipedia,
> stored in our answer indexes). We also of course have more traditional
> links in the search results, which we also source from multiple
> partners, though most commonly from Bing (and none from Google).
>
> https://help.duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/results/sources/

Thanks for the precisions.


        Stefan

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#234584 — Re: Google vs. DDG

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:20:58 -0400
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> >> FWIW, I'm pretty sure that such anectodal evidence is of no importance
> >> because you can also come up with examples where the situation
> >> is reversed.
> > Can you?
> 
> I meant "you" in a very general sense: I'm pretty sure it's possible,
> but no, I haven't done the necessary work (and I'm not very interested
> in doing it either).

That's fine, of course, but I'm just pointing out that your logic is a
bit circular: you dismiss my anecdote in support of Google's
superiority with the assumption that there exist counter-anecdotes as
well, but your only basis for this assumption seems to be the
assumption that Google isn't objectively superior ;)

Of course, anecdotes are not data. And just to be clear, I really like
DDG, certainly for its attitude and track record of taking privacy
seriously, as well as for doing remarkably well as a competitor to
Google with what I assume is a tiny fraction of its resources.

Celejar

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#234593 — Re: Google vs. DDG

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:42:23 -0400
Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:20:58 -0400
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> 
> > >> FWIW, I'm pretty sure that such anectodal evidence is of no
> > >> importance because you can also come up with examples where the
> > >> situation is reversed.  
> > > Can you?  
> > 
> > I meant "you" in a very general sense: I'm pretty sure it's
> > possible, but no, I haven't done the necessary work (and I'm not
> > very interested in doing it either).  
> 
> That's fine, of course, but I'm just pointing out that your logic is a
> bit circular: you dismiss my anecdote in support of Google's
> superiority with the assumption that there exist counter-anecdotes as
> well, but your only basis for this assumption seems to be the
> assumption that Google isn't objectively superior ;)
> 
> Of course, anecdotes are not data. And just to be clear, I really like
> DDG, certainly for its attitude and track record of taking privacy
> seriously, as well as for doing remarkably well as a competitor to
> Google with what I assume is a tiny fraction of its resources.
> 

I tend to treat Google as I do Wikipedia: unparalleled for information
which is not the slightest bit politically controversial, a complete
waste of time for anything that is.

Not that there's all that much left in the first category now, but on
things like the sizes of surface-mount electronic components, Wiki is
pretty sound.

-- 
Joe

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#234581 — Re: Google vs. DDG

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On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 05:07:42PM +0100, mick crane wrote:

> I think Google tailors results according to what they know about you.

Of course they do. That's a selling point (from their POV, at least).

> Even if you reset the router to a new IP and clear all the cookies
> they still seem to know. I've wondered if the browser has an
> identifying number.

What about the cache? There are lots of ways to track an individual
browser. More so if javascript is enabled.

Cheers
 - t

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#234583 — Re: Google vs. DDG

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 17:07:42 +0100
mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2021-04-28 16:05, Celejar wrote:
> > On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:02:19 +0100
> > <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> > 
> >> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 09:46:53AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> >> 
> >> [...]
> >> 
> >> > You've been making some very interesting points here about the key
> >> > being context, but I'm not sure I totally buy it. DDG simply doesn't
> >> > work well for me in certain areas of interest to me. Perhaps I'm simply
> >> > not sufficiently skilled at disambiguation (my "DDG fu" needs
> >> > improvement?), but I'm simply much less productive with DDG than with
> >> > Google. And I do usually access Google without being logged in, with
> >> > most cookies blocked, NoScript, etc., so in general it has much less
> >> > (not zero, of course) "context" with regard to me than it does in
> >> > general.
> >> 
> >> Hm. Good point. Of course, Google has a lot more resources than DDG.
> >> My hypothesis is that the advantage from that is rather marginal and
> >> that they get most of their advantage from search context. Of course,
> >> I may be wrong (as nearly always ;-)
> >> 
> >> Could you give an example where DDG fails and Google succeeds?
> > 
> > Here's a sort of example I just ran into. When trying to find
> > information about Thetis hardware security keys, DDG simply couldn't
> > find the company's website: searching DDG for "thetis key" turns up (in
> > the first page of hits) a bunch of Amazon listings, and a bunch of
> > reviews of, and articles about, security keys that mention Thetis.
> > Searching for the same thing on Google, OTOH, returns the company's
> > website (https://thetis.io) as the first hit (along with a convenient
> > list of pages on the site).
> > 
> > At least, this is what I get here. Who knows what you'll see ...
> > 
> > Celejar
> 
> I think Google tailors results according to what they know about you.
> Even if you reset the router to a new IP and clear all the cookies they 
> still seem to know. I've wondered if the browser has an identifying 
> number.

I can't speak for all browsers, of course, but I'm pretty sure Firefox
has no (public) unique ID:

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1123927

Celejar

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#234587 — Re: Google vs. DDG

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On Mi, 28 apr 21, 17:07:42, mick crane wrote:
> 
> I think Google tailors results according to what they know about you.
> Even if you reset the router to a new IP and clear all the cookies they
> still seem to know. I've wondered if the browser has an identifying number.
> mick

If you're using Google Chrome, it just might:

https://amifloced.org/

As far as I understand from various articles and following discussions 
(e.g. the one I quote below) browsers send various other data (like your 
screen resolution) that can be combined to be used for fingerprinting. 

Apparently Google intends to take this to another level:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/04/everybody-hates-floc-googles-tracking-plan-for-chrome-ads

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#234594 — Re: Google vs. DDG

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On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 mick crane wrote:
>
> I think Google tailors results according to what they know about you.
> Even if you reset the router to a new IP and clear all the cookies they still 
> seem to know. I've wondered if the browser has an identifying number.

Supplementing the observations made here by others, I suggest this
introductory reference on the topic:

  https://coveryourtracks.eff.org/about

   Cover Your Tracks is two things: a tool for users to understand how
   unique and identifiable their browser makes them online, and a
   research project to uncover the tools and techniques of online
   trackers and test the efficacy of privacy add-ons. Running tests on
   Cover Your Tracks gives you information about your own browser’s
   privacy protections, and also helps EFF use statistical methods to
   evaluate the capabilities of third-party trackers and the best forms
   of protection against them.

-- 
Ce qui est important est rarement urgent
et ce qui est urgent est rarement important
-- Dwight David Eisenhower

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#234599 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

On 4/28/21, Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:02:19 +0100
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
(...)
>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 09:46:53AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
>> Could you give an example where DDG fails and Google succeeds?
>
> Here's a sort of example I just ran into. When trying to find
> information about Thetis hardware security keys, DDG simply couldn't
> find the company's website: searching DDG for "thetis key" turns up (in
> the first page of hits) a bunch of Amazon listings, and a bunch of
> reviews of, and articles about, security keys that mention Thetis.
> Searching for the same thing on Google, OTOH, returns the company's
> website (https://thetis.io) as the first hit (along with a convenient
> list of pages on the site).

I have no idea if this Thetis business is pretty popular or well-know (first
time I heard about them), but: couldn't be maybe that Thetis paid for some
Google Ads (and no DDG Ads, let's say) and that "put them in the (G)map?

Just something that came to my mind - to be rigorous: a fully *uneducated*
guess...

Kind regards.

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#234603 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 20:49:56 -0300
riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 4/28/21, Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:02:19 +0100
> > <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> (...)
> >> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 09:46:53AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> >> Could you give an example where DDG fails and Google succeeds?
> >
> > Here's a sort of example I just ran into. When trying to find
> > information about Thetis hardware security keys, DDG simply couldn't
> > find the company's website: searching DDG for "thetis key" turns up (in
> > the first page of hits) a bunch of Amazon listings, and a bunch of
> > reviews of, and articles about, security keys that mention Thetis.
> > Searching for the same thing on Google, OTOH, returns the company's
> > website (https://thetis.io) as the first hit (along with a convenient
> > list of pages on the site).
>
> I have no idea if this Thetis business is pretty popular or well-know (first
> time I heard about them), but: couldn't be maybe that Thetis paid for some
> Google Ads (and no DDG Ads, let's say) and that "put them in the (G)map?
>
> Just something that came to my mind - to be rigorous: a fully *uneducated*
> guess...

A worthy guess, but it doesn't work:

1) Thetis is a pretty well known brand in this area

2) The DDG results *are for Thetis products* - but only Amazon listings
and reviews and roundups of Thetis and similar products, rather than
the company's website.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Le'din - http://bdld.info
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

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#234606 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

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On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:05:22PM -0400, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 20:49:56 -0300
> riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> > I have no idea if this Thetis business is pretty popular or well-know (first
> > time I heard about them), but: couldn't be maybe that Thetis paid for some
> > Google Ads (and no DDG Ads, let's say) and that "put them in the (G)map?
> >
> > Just something that came to my mind - to be rigorous: a fully *uneducated*
> > guess...
> 
> A worthy guess, but it doesn't work:

It isn't as easily dismissible, though...

> 1) Thetis is a pretty well known brand in this area

It seems so, yes.

> 2) The DDG results *are for Thetis products* - but only Amazon listings
> and reviews and roundups of Thetis and similar products, rather than
> the company's website.

Thetis seems to be paying for Google, in one currency or another. For
one, fonts and jquery get downloaded directly from googleapis.com, so
Big G gets a tug each time someone hits their page. Then, they embed
Google analytics scripts in their page (one reason, BTW, why I insist
in disabling javascript in my browser).

Probably this is the kind of thing you learn when attending to a SEO
workshop.

In other words, people learn how to be listed by Google at the top,
and customers pay those people to do so. Or would you think that whole
industry called SEO is about DDG? No, it's Google, then, perhaps,
as a far second, Binge.

One might think that, e.g. DDG could try to leverage the same SEO
mechanisms, but, in my examples above, it's a Google site which gets
hits for fonts and other assets: why shouldn't Google use that signal
to prime their crawler?

It's the subtle network effects what's interesting :-)

Cheers
 - t

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#234622 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 09:25:26 +0200
<tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

...

> Thetis seems to be paying for Google, in one currency or another. For
> one, fonts and jquery get downloaded directly from googleapis.com, so
> Big G gets a tug each time someone hits their page. Then, they embed
> Google analytics scripts in their page (one reason, BTW, why I insist
> in disabling javascript in my browser).

I certainly agree with that goal, but I currently disable analytics via
uBlock Origin, pi-hole, etc.) Disabling JS breaks a lot of (useful)
stuff as collateral damage (but you can always enable it on a
site-by-site basis, which I have to do with uBlock Origin anyway, since
it also breaks (in medium mode) a fair amount of the web).

Celejar

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#234627 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

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On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 10:03:04AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 09:25:26 +0200
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> > [...no javaxcript]
> 
> I certainly agree with that goal, but I currently disable analytics via
> uBlock Origin, pi-hole, etc.) Disabling JS breaks a lot of (useful)
> stuff as collateral damage [...]

Yes, I do it as a kind of self-experiment. The way I go about it
is: my default browser profile has no javascript enabled (and no
cookies, BTW). For some (roughly 10) pages, I have a separate
profile. Two or three I care enough about, the rest is work-related.

When I'm curious about a page, sometimes I see "oh, it's a black
(or white) hole" -- the psychological interesting part is: is my
urge strong enough to set up a profile for that?

Most of the time, the answer is, luckily "No" :-)

Sometimes I get some quaint whining from the page "Ooooh, your
poor little browser does not support blah blah" with instructions
on how to enable javascript (which is even quainter, since these
days you have to be *very* determinate to disable javascript in
any browser, nearly criminally determinate ;-P

In the grand scheme of things. I'm trying to push out a bit
that date where web "designers" can count on everyone having
javascript. Tilting at windmills, but with pride :-)

Cheers
 - t

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#234702 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

Celejar wrote:

> Here's a sort of example I just ran into. When trying to find
> information about Thetis hardware security keys, DDG simply couldn't
> find the company's website: searching DDG for "thetis key" turns up (in
> the first page of hits) a bunch of Amazon listings, and a bunch of
> reviews of, and articles about, security keys that mention Thetis.
> Searching for the same thing on Google, OTOH, returns the company's
> website (https://thetis.io) as the first hit (along with a convenient
> list of pages on the site).
> 
> At least, this is what I get here. Who knows what you'll see ...

Using DDG now for almost 4 weeks it seems to prefer english language sites,
does not provide correct answers and is in general a kind of waste of time
if I am not looking for linux related stuff.
This confirms once again the results of our 1998 study on search engines
where Google outperform all the engines that existed back then.

I'm sorry guys, but DDG is another joke. For example I wanted to know what
is Stieglitz in German - it is kind of bird, but I wanted to know how it
looks like. DDG results did not even come close to a bird.

regards

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#234703 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

Hi,

On Sun, 02 May 2021 12:57:59 +0200
deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:

(...)
> I'm sorry guys, but DDG is another joke. For example I wanted to know
> what is Stieglitz in German - it is kind of bird, but I wanted to know
> how it looks like. DDG results did not even come close to a bird.

this I cannot reproduce here. Searching for "Stieglitz" DDG shows me as
the first result https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stieglitz , followed by
other bird-related pages in German. Switching to DDG's image search I get
a whole page with photos of these cute beasts.

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

... The things love can drive a man to -- the ecstasies, the
the miseries, the broken rules, the desperate chances, the glorious
failures and the glorious victories.
		-- McCoy, "Requiem for Methuselah", stardate 5843.7

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#234704 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

On Sonntag, 2. Mai 2021 07:20:03 -04 Michael Lange wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 02 May 2021 12:57:59 +0200
> deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (...)
>
> > I'm sorry guys, but DDG is another joke. For example I wanted to
> > know
> > what is Stieglitz in German - it is kind of bird, but I wanted to
> > know how it looks like. DDG results did not even come close to a
> > bird.
> this I cannot reproduce here. Searching for "Stieglitz" DDG shows me
> as the first result https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stieglitz ,
> followed by other bird-related pages in German. Switching to DDG's
> image search I get a whole page with photos of these cute beasts.
>
> Regards
>
> Michael
>
same here and "Stieglitz bird" brings up photos of the bird, the
translation into "European Goldfinch" and the link to "European Goldfinch
- Wikipedia".
It all seems to require a little bit more effort to put into the search
to get what I want from DDG while I usually have to put more effort into
Google-searches to tell Google that I don't want what it "thinks" that I
want - e.g. it "thinks" that I want everything in Spanish and seems to
ignore completely that the country of my residence is a multilingual
country with at least 4 main languages and many others, which are
natively spoken by significant parts of the population.
But as soon as I succeed convincing Google that I want English or Dutch
or German or Portuguese then I am able to extract what I want.
In this line National Geographic is far worse than Google.
Just for once try to get an English edition subscription in a country
which NatGeo considers Spanish-speaking.

Cheers
Eike

--
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE
01726 Asuncion / Paraguay

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#234705 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, May 02, 2021 at 01:20:03PM +0200, Michael Lange wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Sun, 02 May 2021 12:57:59 +0200
> deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> (...)
> > I'm sorry guys, but DDG is another joke. For example I wanted to know
> > what is Stieglitz in German - it is kind of bird, but I wanted to know
> > how it looks like. DDG results did not even come close to a bird.
> 
> this I cannot reproduce here. Searching for "Stieglitz" DDG shows me as
> the first result https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stieglitz , followed by
> other bird-related pages in German. Switching to DDG's image search I get
> a whole page with photos of these cute beasts.

You have to set your preferred language to German (not the UI language,
but the language your browser negotiates with web pages: in Firefox
it is "Choose your preferred language for displaying pages") to
German.

As others say in this thread, you have to use your brain a bit more
to be happy with DDG.

To me, honestly, this is a feature, not a bug.

> I'm sorry guys, but DDG is another joke.

I don't know whether that wants to sound cool or what.

Cheers
 - t

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#234721 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> As others say in this thread, you have to use your brain a bit more
> to be happy with DDG.
> 

Don't try to insult. If you speak/use 1-2 languages it might be OK

> To me, honestly, this is a feature, not a bug.
> 

I don't care - it does not delivery good search results, does it?

>> I'm sorry guys, but DDG is another joke.
> 
> I don't know whether that wants to sound cool or what.

No, it wants to sound exactly as it was meant - a joke that you want to
convince me is useful. Well some kind of useful it is, but not much.

To sum up: neither Google nor DDG are satisfactory for different reasons.
Google for their policy of spying on you and DDG for the lack of better
algorithms.
Meanwhile I search in both :D
In the past 5-6 years things changed a lot. Censorship, algorithm
modifications, fake news flooding the web from left and right. I don't know
if it was D. Trump the reason for that, but the result is here to stay with
us. There is too much BS on the internet already. I've been thinking
starting over fresh might be the best choice.

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#234723 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, May 02, 2021 at 05:54:05PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > As others say in this thread, you have to use your brain a bit more
> > to be happy with DDG.
> > 
> 
> Don't try to insult.

Me? How so?

> If you speak/use 1-2 languages it might be OK

Always so competitive?

> > To me, honestly, this is a feature, not a bug.
> 
> I don't care

Nor do I. I think this conversation has reached
a dead point. We are boring to all the rest. I
apologise and bow out. This thread ended for me.

Cheers
 - t

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#234706 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, May 02, 2021 at 02:20:25PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > Searching for "Stieglitz" DDG shows
> 
> With Javascript off:
> 1st try: Alfred Stieglitz
> 2nd try: Alfred Stieglitz, Joseph E. Stiglitz, Focke-Wulf Fw 44 Stieglitz
> 3rd try: Joseph E. Stiglitz, Alfred Stieglitz, Stieglitz Snyder Architecture,
>          Christine Stieglitz
> Quite random choice, but no birds.
> 
> "Stieglitz Vogel", too, yields no birds.
> 
> If i set the "All Regions" menu to "Germany" i get the bird as first
> match, then the people and the Fw 44 air plane.

If you set your browser's primary "web page" language it works,
too. That's probably what goes into the "Accept-Language" HTTP
request header. Would be nice if there were a way to set that
per-request...

> Google on the other hand knows where i am and that i understand german
> and english language.

:-)

> Have a nice day :)

Same to you :)

Cheers
 - t

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#234709 — Re: Google vs. DDG (was: Social-media antipathy)

Hi,

On Sun, 2 May 2021 14:29:06 +0200
<tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

(...)
> If you set your browser's primary "web page" language it works,
> too. That's probably what goes into the "Accept-Language" HTTP
> request header. Would be nice if there were a way to set that
> per-request...

when I just try to search for "language:en stieglitz" (without the
quotes) I get search results only in English (first Alfred Stieglitz, next
Victoria Stieglitz, followed by more of Alfred). The same happens when I
prefix my search with language:fr instead, all French search results. It
almost seems to me like this is an undocumented feature, at least it is
not mentioned at
https://help.duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/results/syntax/

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Do you know the one -- "All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer
her by ..."  You could feel the wind at your back, about you ...  the
sounds of the sea beneath you.  And even if you take away the wind and
the water, it's still the same.  The ship is yours ... you can feel her
... and the stars are still there.
		-- Kirk, "The Ultimate Computer", stardate 4729.4

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