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Groups > linux.debian.user > #233807 > unrolled thread

ubuntu/snap future

Started byGeorge Shuklin <george.shuklin@gmail.com>
First post2021-04-03 18:40 +0200
Last post2021-04-10 16:10 +0200
Articles 6 on this page of 46 — 17 participants

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  ubuntu/snap future George Shuklin <george.shuklin@gmail.com> - 2021-04-03 18:40 +0200
    Re: ubuntu/snap future "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-04-03 19:00 +0200
    Re: ubuntu/snap future Paul Johnson <baloo@ursamundi.org> - 2021-04-06 02:00 +0200
      Re: ubuntu/snap future Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2021-04-06 03:10 +0200
      Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-06 11:30 +0200
        Re: ubuntu/snap future Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-04-06 13:50 +0200
          Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-06 14:30 +0200
          ubuntu/snap future riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-07 05:30 +0200
            Re: ubuntu/snap future Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-04-07 12:20 +0200
              Re: ubuntu/snap future riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 09:20 +0200
                Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 09:30 +0200
                  Re: ubuntu/snap future riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 11:40 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 13:00 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-09 15:00 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 15:30 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 19:50 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-04-09 20:30 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future George Shuklin <george.shuklin@gmail.com> - 2021-04-10 16:10 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-04-29 02:20 +0200
                  Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-09 13:10 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 13:40 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-09 13:50 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 14:50 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-04-09 15:10 +0200
                            Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 15:40 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-04-09 17:10 +0200
                            Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 19:00 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-09 18:10 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 19:30 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 19:30 +0200
                  Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 14:10 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 15:00 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 15:30 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-04-09 15:40 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-04-09 15:50 +0200
                            Re: ubuntu/snap future <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-09 16:20 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2021-04-09 16:20 +0200
                            Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 16:30 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 16:20 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Yoann LE BARS <yoann@le-bars.net> - 2021-04-09 18:20 +0200
                    Re: ubuntu/snap future Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 19:50 +0200
                      Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 20:40 +0200
                        Re: ubuntu/snap future Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-04-09 21:40 +0200
                          Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 22:10 +0200
                Re: ubuntu/snap future Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 14:10 +0200
          Re: ubuntu/snap future George Shuklin <george.shuklin@gmail.com> - 2021-04-10 16:10 +0200

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#234050

FromAndrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com>
Date2021-04-09 19:50 +0200
Message-ID<C23qy-1CD-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#234021

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Vi, 09 apr 21, 08:02:46, Celejar wrote:
> 
> What about cases where the software simply isn't in Debian at all?
> Recently, I've used IntelliJ IDEA and Android Studio, and I'd like to
> set up an OwnCloud server when I get a chance. These, and many other
> complex / fast-changing applications aren't in Debian, but are
> available in containerized app formats.

https://fasttrack.debian.net/

(it's still an experiment, hence the .net TLD)


Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#234057

FromCelejar <celejar@gmail.com>
Date2021-04-09 20:40 +0200
Message-ID<C24cV-27S-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#234050
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 20:48:01 +0300
Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Vi, 09 apr 21, 08:02:46, Celejar wrote:
> > 
> > What about cases where the software simply isn't in Debian at all?
> > Recently, I've used IntelliJ IDEA and Android Studio, and I'd like to
> > set up an OwnCloud server when I get a chance. These, and many other
> > complex / fast-changing applications aren't in Debian, but are
> > available in containerized app formats.
> 
> https://fasttrack.debian.net/
> 
> (it's still an experiment, hence the .net TLD)
Interesting, thanks!

"the package has to be in unstable"

Have the packages I'm interested in not been in unstable because
potential maintainers knew they couldn't make it into stable (and now
that there's fasttrack, they'll get into unstable), or is there some
other reason they can't be in unstable (and hence can't make it to
fasttrack either)?

Celejar

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#234059

FromLinux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de>
Date2021-04-09 21:40 +0200
Message-ID<C2590-2Gw-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#234057

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Celejar writes:

> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 20:48:01 +0300
> Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Vi, 09 apr 21, 08:02:46, Celejar wrote:
> > > What about cases where the software simply isn't in Debian at all?
> > > Recently, I've used IntelliJ IDEA and Android Studio, and I'd like to
> > > set up an OwnCloud server when I get a chance. These, and many other
> > > complex / fast-changing applications aren't in Debian, but are
> > > available in containerized app formats.

[...]

> Have the packages I'm interested in not been in unstable because
> potential maintainers knew they couldn't make it into stable (and now
> that there's fasttrack, they'll get into unstable), or is there some
> other reason they can't be in unstable (and hence can't make it to
> fasttrack either)?

I do not know it for the excact packages you mentioned but to me it seems  
quite plausible that there are modern open source applications which cannot  
be easily included in Debian (not even in unstable). AFAICT it boils down to  
the fact that some of that applications' build processes do not meet  
Debian's high quality standards (formally: Debian Policy).

See, for instance:

 * https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/04/msg01281.html

 * https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2021/02/19/the-modern-packagers-security-nightmare/

 * https://lwn.net/Articles/842319/

 * https://xkcd.com/2347/

I do not think that the solution to these issues has been found yet -- they  
run quite deeply and affect (at least) multiple Linux distributions.

HTH
Linux-Fan

öö

[...]

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#234061

FromCelejar <celejar@gmail.com>
Date2021-04-09 22:10 +0200
Message-ID<C25C2-35J-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#234059
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 21:30:45 +0200
Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> wrote:

> Celejar writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 20:48:01 +0300
> > Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Vi, 09 apr 21, 08:02:46, Celejar wrote:
> > > > What about cases where the software simply isn't in Debian at all?
> > > > Recently, I've used IntelliJ IDEA and Android Studio, and I'd like to
> > > > set up an OwnCloud server when I get a chance. These, and many other
> > > > complex / fast-changing applications aren't in Debian, but are
> > > > available in containerized app formats.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Have the packages I'm interested in not been in unstable because
> > potential maintainers knew they couldn't make it into stable (and now
> > that there's fasttrack, they'll get into unstable), or is there some
> > other reason they can't be in unstable (and hence can't make it to
> > fasttrack either)?
> 
> I do not know it for the excact packages you mentioned but to me it seems  
> quite plausible that there are modern open source applications which cannot  
> be easily included in Debian (not even in unstable). AFAICT it boils down to  
> the fact that some of that applications' build processes do not meet  
> Debian's high quality standards (formally: Debian Policy).

For NextCloud, see this thread (there's some discussion of the
fasttrack option as well):

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=835086

Celejar

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#234020

FromCelejar <celejar@gmail.com>
Date2021-04-09 14:10 +0200
Message-ID<C1Y7w-72e-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#234008
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 04:15:07 -0300
riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> wrote:

...

> I'm still with the doubt. Even considering all this: which has better
> (or less-worse) confinement, Flatpak or Snap (or AppImage)?
> 
> Trying to decide which is less-worse in a scenario of unavoidable
> use of some of these.

A third solution to consider: firejail (I use Zoom firejailed)

Celejar

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#234072

FromGeorge Shuklin <george.shuklin@gmail.com>
Date2021-04-10 16:10 +0200
Message-ID<C2mtd-5fN-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#233894
On 4/6/21 2:49 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Tue 06 Apr 2021 at 11:20:58 +0200, Yoann LE BARS wrote:
>
>> Hello everybody out there!
>>
>> On 2021/04/06 at 01:53 am, Paul Johnson wrote:
>>> There's nothing user-unfriendly about .debs.  They just don't want to
>>> maintain their software and are looking for a "fire and forget"
>>> solution.  I can't see this as anything but a bad thing, something the
>>> world can live without.
>> 	Well, I do not like the way Ubuntu uses snaps, but there are some good
>> reasons to use something like snaps or flatpacks.
>>
>> 	Even with a less careful procedure to integrate and  update packages
>> than the one of Debian (which I like), create a new package and update
>> one take some time. There are several examples when a user needs a bug
>> fix or some functionality that packages in distributions do not provide.
>> In such a case, without snaps or flatpacks, the user has to compile the
>> program, which need some technical skills and can be sometimes really
>> tricky. Appimages are less interesting, as you have to update them manually.
>>
>> 	Use parsimoniously, packages like snaps or flatpacks are something very
>> useful, which improve user experience even for power users. The problem
>> with Ubuntu is it uses way too much snaps and I do not think it is a
>> matter of laziness.
> I had occasion to install Zoom a few weeks ago;'snap install zoom-client'.
> Everything went smoothly and I quite like having this proprietary package
> strictly confined.
>
To the respect of the producer of the Zoom, they don't try to install 
rootkit stuff like Chrome does.

But I would argue that at X/Pulseaudio landscape it's impossible to 
confine desktop application for real. pulseaudio allows to load plugins, 
and that is remote code execution. X does not block application from 
interacting with random stuff on screen (including screensaver and 
password manager) so desktop isolation is fiction.

... And here the main part. I really don't want to see Linux desktop 
walking Android path. Do we really need to protect address book from a 
image editor or calculator? I really trust GIMP not doing anything nasty 
under the hood. I don't need heavy and slow jails for it. I prefer 
cooperation and trust (is Debian all about trust?).

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