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Groups > linux.debian.user > #232827 > unrolled thread
| Started by | William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-03-11 20:00 +0100 |
| Last post | 2021-03-14 05:30 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 128 — 32 participants |
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How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 20:00 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-11 20:10 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 20:30 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-11 21:10 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 22:10 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-11 23:30 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2021-03-12 01:20 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-12 12:40 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 15:40 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-12 17:10 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 08:10 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-12 08:20 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 09:30 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-12 09:40 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 09:40 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-12 10:50 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 12:50 +0100
Re: How i can optimize my operating system? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-12 15:30 +0100
Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-12 10:40 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 11:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Cindy Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 12:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 13:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 18:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 19:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 22:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 23:40 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 19:40 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) grumpy <grumpy@mailfence.com> - 2021-03-14 00:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 09:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 08:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-13 09:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 04:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 05:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 09:40 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-18 23:20 +0100
[OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:00 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 13:40 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 19:10 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 09:00 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 11:50 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-21 13:10 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 14:40 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-21 14:50 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 03:40 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 07:30 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 08:40 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 08:40 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2021-03-22 08:50 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 09:10 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 09:20 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 10:00 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 10:10 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 10:20 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 20:50 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 21:00 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2021-03-22 21:40 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Viktor Vogel <viktor@policy.redirectme.net> - 2021-03-23 17:10 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-03-23 19:20 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) ellanios82 <ellanios82@gmail.com> - 2021-03-23 20:30 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-23 21:50 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 21:50 +0100
Re: SERIOUSLY DANGEROUSLY OFF-TOPIC verb conjugation <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-23 09:30 +0100
Re: SERIOUSLY DANGEROUSLY OFF-TOPIC verb conjugation Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-03-23 12:00 +0100
Re: System hacks more than one year. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-22 20:50 +0100
Re: System hacks more than one year. Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
Re: System hacks more than one year. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-22 10:10 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2021-05-08 14:20 +0200
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-05-08 13:30 +0200
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 19:20 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 09:30 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-20 20:40 +0100
Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 03:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 21:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-18 21:40 +0100
[OT] Debian Offtopic (Was: Re: Social-media antipathy)) Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-18 22:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 09:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 10:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 11:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 15:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 16:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 17:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 22:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-18 17:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 18:40 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-03-18 17:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 18:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-18 18:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 15:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-13 15:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 15:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 22:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:40 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 00:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Tom Yates <madhatter@teaparty.net> - 2021-03-14 07:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 11:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 09:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 12:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 12:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 13:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 13:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-14 15:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-15 10:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-15 10:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 19:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 19:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 18:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 18:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Peter Hillier-Brook <phb@hbsys.plus.com> - 2021-03-12 20:10 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) "Jeremy Nicoll" <jn.ml.dbn.25@letterboxes.org> - 2021-03-12 20:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 20:40 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 18:30 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-13 11:00 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:20 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-14 15:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Will Mengarini <seldon@eskimo.com> - 2021-05-09 10:00 +0200
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) grumpy <grumpy@mailfence.com> - 2021-03-12 20:40 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 20:50 +0100
Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 05:30 +0100
Page 6 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 Next page →
| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-13 22:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSjPY-rr-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232994 |
> I'll stick with Signal for now, at least it's something that I can
> confidently recommend to people as "WhatsApp, but really
> secure/private".
I guess it's a bit more secure/private than whatsapp because you can see
the code of the client, but AFAICT it's still just as centralized :-(
Stefan
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-13 22:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSk9k-OC-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232996 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Sb, 13 mar 21, 16:15:54, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > I'll stick with Signal for now, at least it's something that I can > > confidently recommend to people as "WhatsApp, but really > > secure/private". > > I guess it's a bit more secure/private than whatsapp because you can see > the code of the client, but AFAICT it's still just as centralized :-( Since it's end-to-end encrypted I fail to see what major benefit federation would bring for one-to-one communication and small private groups. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 00:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSmb7-21S-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233001 |
>> > I'll stick with Signal for now, at least it's something that I can
>> > confidently recommend to people as "WhatsApp, but really
>> > secure/private".
>> I guess it's a bit more secure/private than whatsapp because you can see
>> the code of the client, but AFAICT it's still just as centralized :-(
> Since it's end-to-end encrypted I fail to see what major benefit
> federation would bring for one-to-one communication and small private
> groups.
WhatsApp is also (presumably!) end-to-end encrypted, so that's not the
only problem with it.
The problem is also the metadata: it still leaves a centralized record
of who sent what size of message to whom at what time and from which
IP address.
Hopefully they throw this information away ASAP, but I have no reason to
presume that they do (e.g. even if they do intend to, someone hacking their
server could collect that information without their knowledge).
Stefan
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Tom Yates <madhatter@teaparty.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 07:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSsqe-6bx-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233008 |
On Sat, 13 Mar 2021, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>>> I'll stick with Signal for now, at least it's something that I can
>>>> confidently recommend to people as "WhatsApp, but really
>>>> secure/private".
>>> I guess it's a bit more secure/private than whatsapp because you can see
>>> the code of the client, but AFAICT it's still just as centralized :-(
>> Since it's end-to-end encrypted I fail to see what major benefit
>> federation would bring for one-to-one communication and small private
>> groups.
>
> WhatsApp is also (presumably!) end-to-end encrypted, so that's not the
> only problem with it.
>
> The problem is also the metadata: it still leaves a centralized record
> of who sent what size of message to whom at what time and from which
> IP address.
an excellent point. furthermore, you can be summarily thrown off a
central service, by the provider; it is *much* more difficult to eject
someone from a federated service.
--
Tom Yates - https://www.teaparty.net
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 11:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSw0N-8mj-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233018 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Du, 14 mar 21, 05:58:42, Tom Yates wrote: > > an excellent point. furthermore, you can be summarily thrown off a central > service, by the provider; it is *much* more difficult to eject someone from > a federated service. That can easily backfire: https://xkcd.com/1357/ Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 09:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSuBH-7pW-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233008 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 06:42:01PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> > I'll stick with Signal for now, at least it's something that I can > >> > confidently recommend to people as "WhatsApp, but really > >> > secure/private". > >> I guess it's a bit more secure/private than whatsapp because you can see > >> the code of the client, but AFAICT it's still just as centralized :-( > > Since it's end-to-end encrypted I fail to see what major benefit > > federation would bring for one-to-one communication and small private > > groups. > > WhatsApp is also (presumably!) end-to-end encrypted, so that's not the > only problem with it. > > The problem is also the metadata: it still leaves a centralized record > of who sent what size of message to whom at what time and from which > IP address. It's definitely more than just "dry" IP addresses: "In January 2021, WhatsApp announced update to Privacy Policy which states that WhatsApp will share user data with Facebook and its "family of companies" starting February 2021. Previously, users could opt-out of such data sharing, but the new policy removes this option. The new Privacy Policy does not apply within EU, since it is illegal under GDPR." [1] Come on. Facebook shelled out short of 20 *billion* for Whatsapp in 2014. Don't tell me it was just philantropy. For Mark Zuckerberg's private hobby it's a tad too expensive -- the investors want to see return. Some more juicy "user data" than just boring IP addresses (esp. in times where the IPv6 is kind-of randomised anyway) must be in for that deal. > Hopefully they throw this information away ASAP, but I have no reason to > presume that they do (e.g. even if they do intend to, someone hacking their > server could collect that information without their knowledge). Throw away? At most they let it lying around on some cloud, but I think FB can afford the pros to not botch it up so blatantly. Smaller start-ups, though... Cheers [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whatsapp#Security_and_privacy - t
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 12:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSwNc-qD-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233023 |
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On Du, 14 mar 21, 09:44:27, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 06:42:01PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > >> > I'll stick with Signal for now, at least it's something that I can > > >> > confidently recommend to people as "WhatsApp, but really > > >> > secure/private". > > >> I guess it's a bit more secure/private than whatsapp because you can see > > >> the code of the client, but AFAICT it's still just as centralized :-( > > > Since it's end-to-end encrypted I fail to see what major benefit > > > federation would bring for one-to-one communication and small private > > > groups. > > > > WhatsApp is also (presumably!) end-to-end encrypted, so that's not the > > only problem with it. > > > > The problem is also the metadata: it still leaves a centralized record > > of who sent what size of message to whom at what time and from which > > IP address. Federated services have metadata as well. If a particular communication involves two different servers now *both* servers will have all the metadata for that communication. The only *potential* benefit for privacy is to restrict your communication to only specific servers with privacy policies and/or in jurisdictions of your choosing, assuming there is one. Which significantly reduces the benefits of federation. As far as I can tell federation *for messaging services* is mostly good for resilience at the cost of all the interoperability issues it brings. https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issuecomment-217339450 For me it make more sense for a social network, where I can decide where to store my stuff or even host it myself (assuming an architecture similar to diaspora). > It's definitely more than just "dry" IP addresses: > > "In January 2021, WhatsApp announced update to Privacy Policy > which states that WhatsApp will share user data with Facebook and > its "family of companies" starting February 2021. Previously, > users could opt-out of such data sharing, but the new policy > removes this option. The new Privacy Policy does not apply > within EU, since it is illegal under GDPR." [1] > > Come on. Facebook shelled out short of 20 *billion* for Whatsapp in > 2014. Don't tell me it was just philantropy. For Mark Zuckerberg's > private hobby it's a tad too expensive -- the investors want to see > return. Some more juicy "user data" than just boring IP addresses > (esp. in times where the IPv6 is kind-of randomised anyway) must > be in for that deal. Certainly, which is exactly why I'm wary of WhatsApp. > > Hopefully they throw this information away ASAP, but I have no reason to > > presume that they do (e.g. even if they do intend to, someone hacking their > > server could collect that information without their knowledge). > > Throw away? At most they let it lying around on some cloud, but I > think FB can afford the pros to not botch it up so blatantly. Smaller > start-ups, though... With federation one would have to trust all server operators involved to do the right thing. So far Signal claims to have a pretty good track record. https://signal.org/bigbrother/ To be clear, far from me to claim Signal is perfect, it's just (in my not so humble opinion) the only *feasible* option to compete with WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc. And the only way it can reasonably compete is for us to bring in as many users as possible, even if it might not be *our* first choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect As technically inclined users we already had Jabber with OTR. Matrix makes a lot of sense for organisations that want to run their own server. It might become an alternative to Signal for "regular" users at some point. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 12:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSwWS-tR-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233035 |
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On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 01:03:49PM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: [...] > To be clear, far from me to claim Signal is perfect, it's just (in my > not so humble opinion) the only *feasible* option to compete with > WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc. Dunno. What's wrong with mail/pgp-gpg? I'm happy with that. No reason for anything else. And signal... with all due respect to Moxie Marlinspike... - the centralised server model - the fact they don't publish their server code since a while - the construction with one foundation at its center are all things to push some of my customary alarm buttons. But in the first place, I'm not the target audience for instant messaging anyway. Cheers - t
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 13:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSxJf-Zt-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233036 |
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On Du, 14 mar 21, 12:19:34, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 01:03:49PM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > [...] > > > To be clear, far from me to claim Signal is perfect, it's just (in my > > not so humble opinion) the only *feasible* option to compete with > > WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc. > > Dunno. What's wrong with mail/pgp-gpg? Besides that e-mail is unsuitable for instant messaging, it's very difficult to get right. https://riseup.net/en/security/message-security/openpgp/best-practices > I'm happy with that. No reason for anything else. > > And signal... with all due respect to Moxie Marlinspike... > > - the centralised server model > - the fact they don't publish their server code since a > while https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server > - the construction with one foundation at its center > > are all things to push some of my customary alarm buttons. But > in the first place, I'm not the target audience for instant > messaging anyway. Every step towards more privacy is good. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 13:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSy2C-15J-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233049 |
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On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 02:08:34PM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Du, 14 mar 21, 12:19:34, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: [...] > > in the first place, I'm not the target audience for instant > > messaging anyway. > > Every step towards more privacy is good. Let's not let the perfect be > the enemy of the good. Mp doubt. Still, that wouldn't convince me to start instant messaging. I'm more of an asynchronous type ;-) Cheers - t
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 15:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSAe6-2ir-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233051 |
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:23:17 +0100 <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote: > On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 02:08:34PM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > On Du, 14 mar 21, 12:19:34, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > [...] > > > in the first place, I'm not the target audience for instant > > > messaging anyway. > > > > Every step towards more privacy is good. Let's not let the perfect > > be the enemy of the good. > > Mp doubt. Still, that wouldn't convince me to start instant messaging. > I'm more of an asynchronous type ;-) > If you need 'now!', pick up the phone. -- Joe
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-15 10:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSReW-4c1-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233059 |
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On Du, 14 mar 21, 14:49:03, Joe wrote: > On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:23:17 +0100 > <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 02:08:34PM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > On Du, 14 mar 21, 12:19:34, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > in the first place, I'm not the target audience for instant > > > > messaging anyway. > > > > > > Every step towards more privacy is good. Let's not let the perfect > > > be the enemy of the good. > > > > Mp doubt. Still, that wouldn't convince me to start instant messaging. > > I'm more of an asynchronous type ;-) > > > > If you need 'now!', pick up the phone. I'm better at asynchronous as well, but still find instant messaging to have it's uses, e.g. for things like "be there in 10 minutes", which is almost as fast as calling and doesn't require the recipient to answer (whereas as call would require their full attention). And then there's group chats. There's a reason IRC still exists ;) Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-15 10:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSRoB-4uu-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233090 |
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On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 10:54:26AM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: [...] > I'm better at asynchronous as well, but still find instant messaging to > have it's uses [...] > And then there's group chats. There's a reason IRC still exists ;) Agreed. Tools, jobs and all that :) Cheers - t
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| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 19:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSDlD-4ki-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233049 |
>> And signal... with all due respect to Moxie Marlinspike...
>> - the centralised server model
>> - the fact they don't publish their server code since a while
> https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server
To the extent that the service is centralized, I don't really care if
their code is available (it's not like I'd run my own server and start
asking friends to use that one instead, and it's not like I can verify
that the code they publish is indeed the code they run).
I mean, I do welcome their releasing their code under a Free license,
but that doesn't affect very much my overall assessment of the service,
other than a gesture of good faith,
>> - the construction with one foundation at its center
>> are all things to push some of my customary alarm buttons.
>> But in the first place, I'm not the target audience for instant
>> messaging anyway.
> Every step towards more privacy is good. Let's not let the perfect be
> the enemy of the good.
No doubt that Signal is a big step up from WhatsApp.
I just find Matrix to be yet another big step up ;-)
Stefan
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| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 19:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSDbX-41D-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233035 |
> Federated services have metadata as well.
> If a particular communication involves two different servers now *both*
> servers will have all the metadata for that communication.
Indeed, hiding all the metadata is *hard*.
Still, Having the overall metadata divided among a hundred servers or
more reduces significantly the amount and quality of information
available at any given server, compared to having it all centralized on
a single service for whole world.
In any case, I don't think that is the main benefit. I think the main
benefit is that it makes it easy to move from one provider to another,
which completely changes the dynamics.
Stefan
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| From | Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-14 18:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BSD2h-3Yn-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #233023 |
>> The problem is also the metadata: it still leaves a centralized record
>> of who sent what size of message to whom at what time and from which
>> IP address.
>
> It's definitely more than just "dry" IP addresses:
I was talking about Signal (I admit I didn't make that clear).
Stefan
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| From | Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-12 18:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BRU5b-31q-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232912 |
On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 8:27 AM James H. H. Lampert <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> wrote: > > On 3/12/21 8:09 AM, Larry Martell wrote: > > I did the same thing - I resisted being on FB for a very long time, > > but eventually I had to get on because it was how my family was > > communicating and I was being left out of the loop. I joined as my dog > > only my family knew how to find me. Even to this day I am only > > connected to family members. > > If they shun or ostracize you for not being on Facebook, they are > neither your friends nor your family. No they will still be my family, but I will not know what they are up to.
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| From | Peter Hillier-Brook <phb@hbsys.plus.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-12 20:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BRVkC-3We-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232920 |
On 12/03/2021 17:41, Larry Martell wrote: > On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 8:27 AM James H. H. Lampert > <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> wrote: >> >> On 3/12/21 8:09 AM, Larry Martell wrote: >>> I did the same thing - I resisted being on FB for a very long time, >>> but eventually I had to get on because it was how my family was >>> communicating and I was being left out of the loop. I joined as my dog >>> only my family knew how to find me. Even to this day I am only >>> connected to family members. >> >> If they shun or ostracize you for not being on Facebook, they are >> neither your friends nor your family. > > No they will still be my family, but I will not know what they are up to. I'm just guessing, but how do they access Facebook and yet not be able to use a telephone?
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| From | "Jeremy Nicoll" <jn.ml.dbn.25@letterboxes.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-12 20:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BRVDX-42R-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232924 |
On Fri, 12 Mar 2021, at 19:03, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote: > I'm just guessing, but how do they access Facebook and yet not be able > to use a telephone? I think some of you miss some of the advantages of Facebook. It allows me to stay loosely in touch with around 120 friends, many of whom I have not seen face-to-face for maybe 30 years. They can see I'm still alive and I them, and I'm able to feel just slightly more in-touch with them. The overall effect is a bit like that of receiving a once-per-year round-robin letter from each of them, except that instead of a whole wodge of news coming once per year, one gets - shall we say - a fiftieth of the amount 50 times more often. It also allows one to comment immediately on something someone else has done, which requires a lot less commitment than a full conversation with someone whom, in fact, one perhaps no longer knows well. I would not expect most of these people ever to ring me, and by the same token I am not going to ring 120 people, who're now spread all across the world. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-03-12 20:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) |
| Message-ID | <BRVND-45S-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #232925 |
On Fri 12 Mar 2021 at 19:26:05 +0000, Jeremy Nicoll wrote: > On Fri, 12 Mar 2021, at 19:03, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote: > > > I'm just guessing, but how do they access Facebook and yet not be able > > to use a telephone? > > I think some of you miss some of the advantages of Facebook. It allows > me to stay loosely in touch with around 120 friends, many of whom I have > not seen face-to-face for maybe 30 years. They can see I'm still alive and > I them, and I'm able to feel just slightly more in-touch with them. > > The overall effect is a bit like that of receiving a once-per-year round-robin > letter from each of them, except that instead of a whole wodge of news > coming once per year, one gets - shall we say - a fiftieth of the amount > 50 times more often. > > It also allows one to comment immediately on something someone else > has done, which requires a lot less commitment than a full conversation > with someone whom, in fact, one perhaps no longer knows well. > > I would not expect most of these people ever to ring me, and by the > same token I am not going to ring 120 people, who're now spread all > across the world. As a non-Facebook user - well said. -- Brian.
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