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Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?)

From Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?)
Date 2021-03-14 12:10 +0100
Message-ID <BSwNc-qD-11@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On Du, 14 mar 21, 09:44:27, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 06:42:01PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > >> > I'll stick with Signal for now, at least it's something that I can 
> > >> > confidently recommend to people as "WhatsApp, but really 
> > >> > secure/private".
> > >> I guess it's a bit more secure/private than whatsapp because you can see
> > >> the code of the client, but AFAICT it's still just as centralized :-(
> > > Since it's end-to-end encrypted I fail to see what major benefit 
> > > federation would bring for one-to-one communication and small private 
> > > groups.
> > 
> > WhatsApp is also (presumably!) end-to-end encrypted, so that's not the
> > only problem with it.
> > 
> > The problem is also the metadata: it still leaves a centralized record
> > of who sent what size of message to whom at what time and from which
> > IP address.

Federated services have metadata as well.

If a particular communication involves two different servers now *both* 
servers will have all the metadata for that communication.

The only *potential* benefit for privacy is to restrict your 
communication to only specific servers with privacy policies and/or in 
jurisdictions of your choosing, assuming there is one. Which 
significantly reduces the benefits of federation.

As far as I can tell federation *for messaging services* is mostly good 
for resilience at the cost of all the interoperability issues it brings.

https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issuecomment-217339450

For me it make more sense for a social network, where I can decide where 
to store my stuff or even host it myself (assuming an architecture 
similar to diaspora).

> It's definitely more than just "dry" IP addresses:
> 
>   "In January 2021, WhatsApp announced update to Privacy Policy
>   which states that WhatsApp will share user data with Facebook and
>   its "family of companies" starting February 2021. Previously,
>   users could opt-out of such data sharing, but the new policy
>   removes this option. The new Privacy Policy does not apply
>   within EU, since it is illegal under GDPR." [1]
> 
> Come on. Facebook shelled out short of 20 *billion* for Whatsapp in
> 2014. Don't tell me it was just philantropy. For Mark Zuckerberg's
> private hobby it's a tad too expensive -- the investors want to see
> return. Some more juicy "user data" than just boring IP addresses
> (esp. in times where the IPv6 is kind-of randomised anyway) must
> be in for that deal.

Certainly, which is exactly why I'm wary of WhatsApp.

> > Hopefully they throw this information away ASAP, but I have no reason to
> > presume that they do (e.g. even if they do intend to, someone hacking their
> > server could collect that information without their knowledge).
> 
> Throw away? At most they let it lying around on some cloud, but I
> think FB can afford the pros to not botch it up so blatantly. Smaller
> start-ups, though...

With federation one would have to trust all server operators involved to 
do the right thing.

So far Signal claims to have a pretty good track record.

https://signal.org/bigbrother/

To be clear, far from me to claim Signal is perfect, it's just (in my 
not so humble opinion) the only *feasible* option to compete with 
WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, etc.

And the only way it can reasonably compete is for us to bring in as many 
users as possible, even if it might not be *our* first choice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

As technically inclined users we already had Jabber with OTR.

Matrix makes a lot of sense for organisations that want to run their own 
server. It might become an alternative to Signal for "regular" users at 
some point.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 20:00 +0100
  Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-11 20:10 +0100
    Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 20:30 +0100
      Re: How i can optimize my operating system? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-11 21:10 +0100
      Re: How i can optimize my operating system? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 22:10 +0100
        Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-11 23:30 +0100
          Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2021-03-12 01:20 +0100
            Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-12 12:40 +0100
              Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 15:40 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-12 17:10 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
          Re: How i can optimize my operating system? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 08:10 +0100
            Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-12 08:20 +0100
              Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 09:30 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-12 09:40 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 09:40 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-12 10:50 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 12:50 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-12 15:30 +0100
                Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-12 10:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 11:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Cindy Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 12:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 13:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 18:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 19:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 22:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 23:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 19:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) grumpy <grumpy@mailfence.com> - 2021-03-14 00:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 09:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 08:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-13 09:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 04:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 05:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 09:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-18 23:20 +0100
                [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 13:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 19:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 09:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 11:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-21 13:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 14:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-21 14:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 03:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 07:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 08:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 08:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2021-03-22 08:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 09:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 09:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 10:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 10:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 10:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 20:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 21:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2021-03-22 21:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Viktor Vogel <viktor@policy.redirectme.net> - 2021-03-23 17:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my   operating system?) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-03-23 19:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) ellanios82 <ellanios82@gmail.com> - 2021-03-23 20:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-23 21:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 21:50 +0100
                Re: SERIOUSLY DANGEROUSLY OFF-TOPIC verb conjugation <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-23 09:30 +0100
                Re: SERIOUSLY DANGEROUSLY OFF-TOPIC verb conjugation Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-03-23 12:00 +0100
                Re: System hacks more than one year. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-22 20:50 +0100
                Re: System hacks more than one year. Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
                Re: System hacks more than one year. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-22 10:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2021-05-08 14:20 +0200
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-05-08 13:30 +0200
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 19:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 09:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-20 20:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 03:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 21:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-18 21:40 +0100
                [OT] Debian Offtopic (Was: Re: Social-media antipathy)) Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-18 22:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 09:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 10:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 11:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 15:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 16:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 17:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 22:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-18 17:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 18:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-03-18 17:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 18:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-18 18:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 15:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-13 15:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 15:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 22:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 00:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Tom Yates <madhatter@teaparty.net> - 2021-03-14 07:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 11:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 09:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 12:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 12:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 13:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 13:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-14 15:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-15 10:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-15 10:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 19:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 19:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 18:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 18:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Peter Hillier-Brook <phb@hbsys.plus.com> - 2021-03-12 20:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) "Jeremy Nicoll" <jn.ml.dbn.25@letterboxes.org> - 2021-03-12 20:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 20:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 18:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-13 11:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-14 15:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Will Mengarini <seldon@eskimo.com> - 2021-05-09 10:00 +0200
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) grumpy <grumpy@mailfence.com> - 2021-03-12 20:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 20:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 05:30 +0100

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