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Groups > linux.debian.user > #231031 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-01-23 20:30 +0100 |
| Last post | 2021-01-26 12:00 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 36 — 14 participants |
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debian-user lsit information and guidelines (posted monthly) "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-01-23 20:30 +0100
Re: debian-user lsit information and guidelines (posted monthly) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-01-23 22:10 +0100
Re: debian-user lsit information and guidelines (posted monthly) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-01-23 22:10 +0100
Re: debian-user lsit information and guidelines (posted monthly) "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2021-01-24 00:20 +0100
Re: debian-user lsit information and guidelines (posted monthly) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-01-24 00:40 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 07:20 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-01-25 08:00 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-01-25 10:10 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 14:30 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-01-25 10:30 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 14:40 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 14:20 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-01-25 15:00 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Pierre Frenkiel <frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2021-01-25 18:00 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-01-26 00:50 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-01-25 08:40 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 16:50 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2021-01-25 12:40 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-01-25 14:20 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2021-01-25 14:40 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-01-25 15:00 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2021-01-25 15:30 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-01-25 16:00 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam brainfart@posteo.net - 2021-01-25 17:40 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 17:40 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-01-25 21:00 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 21:20 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-01-25 16:00 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2021-01-25 14:20 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 17:20 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-01-25 20:30 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2021-01-25 21:30 +0100
Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-01-26 08:10 +0100
Re: debian-user list information and guidelines : don't use CC mail list Robbi Nespu <robbinespu@gmail.com> - 2021-01-26 04:40 +0100
Re: debian-user list information and guidelines : don't use CC mail list <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-01-26 11:30 +0100
Re: debian-user list information and guidelines : don't use CC mail list Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-01-26 12:00 +0100
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-23 20:30 +0100 |
| Subject | debian-user lsit information and guidelines (posted monthly) |
| Message-ID | <BAwLE-1oI-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works: The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific:for example, debian-user-french It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example, from debian-project, if their query is not appropriate there. It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. The mailing list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who may be following along on the list or reading the archives later. Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. If responding to someone, be considerate of their time and effort. Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of updating. https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser :
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-23 22:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BAykq-2pf-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231031 |
On Sat 23 Jan 2021 at 19:24:37 +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. > > Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works: > > The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing lists that are language-specific:for example, debian-user-french > > It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example, from debian-project, if their query is not appropriate there. > > It is also common for people to be posting here when English is not their primary language. Please be considerate. > > The mailing list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct > > https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct > https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct > > This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit; private > conversations don't benefit people who may be following along on the list or reading the archives later. > > Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. If responding to > someone, be considerate of their time and effort. > > Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a Debian list. > > There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of updating. > > https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Here we are, trundling along in our own bumbling way. Now we are promised one of these mails every month to keep us on our toes. Each mail would have lines longer than the Channel tunnel! What does this achieve? What has brought about this mail? Have we had naughty users recently? In particular, the FAQ on the Debian Wiki is said to be in need of updating. You know what is usually said about this? It's a wiki; the comment maker should get stuck into altering it. -- Brian.
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-23 22:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BAykq-2pf-23@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231032 |
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On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 08:59:57PM +0000, Brian wrote: > On Sat 23 Jan 2021 at 19:24:37 +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: [thanks, Andrew, BTW] > Here we are, trundling along in our own bumbling way [...] C'mon, Brian. You can be more constructive. I /know/ it. Cheers - t
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| From | "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-24 00:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BAAme-3At-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231032 |
As ever, you only notice mistakes / missing items when you post the mail. The next copy will be posted on 2021-02-01 - corrected, and with the bits I missed. This is a canary if you like: should the mailing list traffic ever drop to minimal traffic, you'd notice because you only got one mail a month. I have begun editing the FAQ on the Wiki and I'm quite prepared to also put in some effort in other areas of the Debian website if needed. Thanks for reading this far, all the very best, as ever Andy Cater
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-24 00:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <BAAFz-3Hf-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231036 |
On Sat 23 Jan 2021 at 23:12:24 +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > As ever, you only notice mistakes / missing items when you post the mail. That's always the way; done it myself. But anything can be reversed :). > The next copy will be posted on 2021-02-01 - corrected, and with the bits > I missed. > > This is a canary if you like: should the mailing list traffic ever drop to > minimal traffic, you'd notice because you only got one mail a month. > > I have begun editing the FAQ on the Wiki and I'm quite prepared to also put > in some effort in other areas of the Debian website if needed. Splendid. -- Brian.
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| From | John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 07:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BB3oe-55m-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231031 |
On 2021-01-23 14:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. > ... > There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of updating. > https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Your post provides a hook to ask about a question that arises sporadically: Probably less than one a month I receive from Debian Listmaster Team <listmaster@lists.debian.org> a message "lists.debian.org has received bounces from you". Invariably it reads: > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list: > * debian-user > 1 bounce out of <nn> mails in one day (<x>%, kick-score is 80%) First: How common is this occurrence for others? Even when it happens, it will obviously never rise to the kick-score, so it's functionally forgettable. But the post itself is educational, particularly with the background info links, which explain the origin of the problem in spam control, and why bouncing list mail is not nice, and what can and should be done about spam. I'm sympathetic to the problem, but don't run my own mail server [I suspect many on this list do so, and thus are closer to spam issues], and can never get my ISP to care about this. One aspect on which the FAQ is silent is exactly /how/ the debian lists are filtered for spam. That would probably be too much specificity for a FAQ, but I wonder about it because of a problem I'm having with another list [SOGo], in the opposite direction: I cannot currently post to the SOGo list because their spam filter (UCEPROTECT) claims that my ISP currently hosts 6 spammers. In response, they block all mail from that ISP (called UCEPROTECT Level2 protection). Again, getting my ISP to care about this is an ongoing challenge. Is there an intelligent way to manage when spam control efforts break the system they want to protect? Do the debian lists attempt to control spam by blocking specific users, domains or ISPs? Kind regards, John
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 08:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BB40W-5hF-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231067 |
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On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote: > On 2021-01-23 14:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian > > users,and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. > > ... > > There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of updating. > > https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser > > Your post provides a hook to ask about a question that arises > sporadically: Probably less than one a month I receive from Debian > Listmaster Team <listmaster@lists.debian.org> a message > "lists.debian.org has received bounces from you". Invariably it reads: > > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list: > > * debian-user > > 1 bounce out of <nn> mails in one day (<x>%, kick-score is 80%) > > First: How common is this occurrence for others? Depends on the provider. I receive list mail to a GMX account and it does happen from time to time. > Even when it happens, it will obviously never rise to the kick-score, It could happen quickly with a misconfigured e-mail server / spam filter, which is why the warning is being sent out. > so it's functionally forgettable. But the post itself is educational, > particularly with the background info links, which explain the origin > of the problem in spam control, and why bouncing list mail is not > nice, and what can and should be done about spam. I'm sympathetic to > the problem, but don't run my own mail server [I suspect many on this > list do so, and thus are closer to spam issues], and can never get my > ISP to care about this. We can at least pester them about it. If enough of us do, eventually they will have no choice but to listen, especially in case of paying customers. > One aspect on which the FAQ is silent is exactly /how/ the debian > lists are filtered for spam. That would probably be too much > specificity for a FAQ, but I wonder about it because of a problem I'm > having with another list [SOGo], in the opposite direction: > I cannot currently post to the SOGo list because their spam filter > (UCEPROTECT) claims that my ISP currently hosts 6 spammers. In > response, they block all mail from that ISP (called UCEPROTECT > Level2 protection). Again, getting my ISP to care about this is an > ongoing challenge. > > Is there an intelligent way to manage when spam control efforts break > the system they want to protect? Do the debian lists attempt to > control spam by blocking specific users, domains or ISPs? Start here: https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/ListMaster/FAQ Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 10:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BB62J-6Ze-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231073 |
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On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:55:53AM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote: > > [...] and can never get my > > ISP to care about this. > > We can at least pester them about it. If enough of us do, eventually > they will have no choice but to listen, especially in case of paying > customers. Very much this. Things only change if enough people care. Pestering is /always/ The Right Thing to Do(TM). Cheers - t
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| From | John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 14:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BBa6l-181-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231077 |
On 2021-01-25 04:05, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:55:53AM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote: >> On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote: > >>> [...] and can never get my ISP to care about this. >> >> We can at least pester them about it. If enough of us do, eventually >> they will have no choice but to listen, especially in case of paying >> customers. > > Very much this. Things only change if enough people care. Pestering > is /always/ The Right Thing to Do(TM). Yes. I'm sympathetic to Doing the Right Thing(TM), but Time is a Scarce Commodity(TM) drained by unanswered emails and unreturned phone calls. King regards, John
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 10:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BB6m6-76D-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231073 |
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 08:55:53 +0200 Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote: > On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote: > > > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list: > > > * debian-user > > > 1 bounce out of <nn> mails in one day (<x>%, kick-score > > > is 80%) > > > > First: How common is this occurrence for others? > > Depends on the provider. I receive list mail to a GMX account and it > does happen from time to time. > > > Even when it happens, it will obviously never rise to the > > kick-score, > > It could happen quickly with a misconfigured e-mail server / spam > filter, which is why the warning is being sent out. > Or with a mail server that's down for a while, or where the Internet connection is down, and in my case at least, when Debian's DNS servers do not respond in a reasonable time. > > so it's functionally forgettable. But the post itself is > > educational, particularly with the background info links, which > > explain the origin of the problem in spam control, and why bouncing > > list mail is not nice, and what can and should be done about spam. > > I'm sympathetic to the problem, but don't run my own mail server [I > > suspect many on this list do so, and thus are closer to spam > > issues], and can never get my ISP to care about this. I run my own mail server, which does *not* reject SMTP transactions based on content, it looks for respectability. It never rejects Debian email, whether spam or not. > > We can at least pester them about it. If enough of us do, eventually > they will have no choice but to listen, especially in case of paying > customers. I have a client who uses BT as his ISP, and therefore must use Microsoft as his email provider. It is not possible to affect their spam policy in any way, or even to turn it off. > > > > Is there an intelligent way to manage when spam control efforts > > break the system they want to protect? Do the debian lists attempt > > to control spam by blocking specific users, domains or ISPs? I've never found content-based anti-spam methods to be reliable. For a time, I tried spamassassin, but I found I was spending a lot of time tweaking it, and a week later would need to do it again. I decided that spammers evolve faster than I care to try to deal with. I do segregate some emails that cannot possibly be anything other than spam but do not reject them, and send myself a daily email listing the very few that were rejected that were actually sent to a real user on my domains. I do get the occasional incorrect rejection, but no more than half a dozen a year, which I can normally put right the next day. -- Joe
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| From | John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 14:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BBag4-1bw-19@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231079 |
On 2021-01-25 04:24, Joe wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 08:55:53 +0200 Andrei POPESCU wrote: >> On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote: >>> ... >>> Is there an intelligent way to manage when spam control efforts >>> break the system they want to protect? Do the debian lists attempt >>> to control spam by blocking specific users, domains or ISPs? > > I've never found content-based anti-spam methods to be reliable. For a > time, I tried spamassassin, but I found I was spending a lot of time > tweaking it, and a week later would need to do it again. I decided that > spammers evolve faster than I care to try to deal with. > > I do segregate some emails that cannot possibly be anything other than > spam but do not reject them, and send myself a daily email listing the > very few that were rejected that were actually sent to a real user on > my domains. I do get the occasional incorrect rejection, but no more > than half a dozen a year, which I can normally put right the next day. Thanks for that perspective and summary of your practice, John
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| From | John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 14:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BB9WG-14X-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231073 |
On 2021-01-25 01:55, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote: > ... >> ... the background info links ... explain the origin >> of the problem in spam control, and why bouncing list mail is not >> nice, and what can and should be done about spam. I'm sympathetic to >> the problem, but don't run my own mail server [I suspect many on this >> list do so, and thus are closer to spam issues], and can never get my >> ISP to care about this. > > We can at least pester them about it. If enough of us do, eventually > they will have no choice but to listen, especially in case of paying > customers. I avoid "free" mail services because I prefer not to be the commodity, so have been a paying customer (nb.net) forever. But nb.net no longer run their own MTA (maybe for just this reason?), farming it out to userservices.net. As a result they increasingly unresponsive to complaints. I have not figured out my next step. > ... >> >> Is there an intelligent way to manage when spam control efforts break >> the system they want to protect? Do the debian lists attempt to >> control spam by blocking specific users, domains or ISPs? > > Start here: > https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/ListMaster/FAQ Yes, that is where I started, but it does not address what measures the debian lists use to control spam. This thread was the next step toward mitigating the problem on my end. Thanks for your reply. Kind regards, John
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 15:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BBazo-1iA-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231092 |
Hi John, On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:16:38AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote: > nb.net no longer run their own MTA (maybe for just this reason?), > farming it out to userservices.net. As a result they increasingly > unresponsive to complaints. I have not figured out my next step. As mentioned, I do self-host my own email but when friends and family ask for a solution I like to point them at fastmail.com. I've no association with fastmail.com, I just find them pleasant to deal with when helping people. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 18:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BBdnA-30b-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231098 |
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021, Andy Smith wrote: > to point them at fastmail.com. > > I've no association with fastmail.com, I just find them pleasant to > deal with when helping people. an other solution is "getmail", available as a debian package, and also, I suppose, with other distribs. I'm using it since several years, and is very happy with the way it works. It puts the incoming mail in a directory, and it's then easy to run a filter script, to remove spams. best regards, -- Pierre Frenkiel
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| From | The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-26 00:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BBjMm-6Se-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231098 |
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On 2021-01-25 at 08:57, Andy Smith wrote: > Hi John, > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:16:38AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote: >> nb.net no longer run their own MTA (maybe for just this reason?), >> farming it out to userservices.net. As a result they increasingly >> unresponsive to complaints. I have not figured out my next step. > > As mentioned, I do self-host my own email but when friends and family > ask for a solution I like to point them at fastmail.com. > > I've no association with fastmail.com, I just find them pleasant to > deal with when helping people. I am (as you can see from my E-mail address) a Fastmail customer, from before they switched to the .com domain as their primary if not default address location. I have had zero complaints about them over the years. I'd have to dig pretty deep into my archives to find out just how long it has been since I switched - but at one point when my family changed ISPs and I had to migrate all my subscriptions (etc.) to a new address, I decided I didn't want to ever have to do that again, and Fastmail (even at some of its cheaper tiers) looked like everything I was looking for. I've rarely had occasion to communicate with them for customer service, but in every case that I recall I've gotten a response from an actual human, albeit not always promptly. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 08:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BB4DD-5Lm-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231067 |
Hi John, On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote: > Your post provides a hook to ask about a question that arises sporadically: Probably less than one a month I receive from Debian Listmaster Team <listmaster@lists.debian.org> a message "lists.debian.org has received bounces from you". Invariably it reads: > >In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list: > >* debian-user > > 1 bounce out of <nn> mails in one day (<x>%, kick-score is 80%) > > First: How common is this occurrence for others? Probably around the same frequency as you until I set my mail server to never reject spammy mails from Debian lists but instead silently discard them. The thing is, this is about spam. The best practice when dealing with a piece of mail that has been identified as so spammy that you don't want to receive it is not to file it away in a spam folder, but to reject it at SMTP time. If it were directed to a spam folder then the sender believe it has been delivered but the user may not look at it ever. At least with an SMTP-time reject, the sending system knows that the mail has not been safely sent. If it is a human sender than they can take appropriate action if a mistake has been made. Unfortunately Debian's listserv doesn't like it when you do this and will eventually unsubscribe you because it sees so many errors with the (spam) emails it tries to send you. At least as you say the threshold is quite high and it would be very unlikely to send 80% rejectable spam in one day, but I still found it annoying enough to abandon the SMTP reject best practice policy for mails from Debian lists. You don't have that option, because you don't run your MTA. But the people who run your MTA are doing the right thing by rejecting email that they consider too spammy. So although it may be worth asking if there's anything they can do, it's likely they won't want to do anything differently there. > I cannot currently post to the SOGo list because their spam > filter (UCEPROTECT) claims that my ISP currently hosts 6 > spammers. In response, they block all mail from that ISP (called > UCEPROTECT Level2 protection). Again, getting my ISP to care > about this is an ongoing challenge. Now this one is different. UCEPROTECT doesn't have a good reputation amongst DNSBLs. They routinely list entire providers for a small number of incidents and they require a payment to be removed. I would call it extremely unwise to outright block email for UCEPROTECT level 2 listing. I personally would not even score on that. They will be rejecting a lot of legitimate email, not just yours. All you can do is try to persuade them to stop using UCEPROTECT though. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 16:50 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BBchP-2ob-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231075 |
On 2021-01-25 02:36, Andy Smith wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote: > > ... The best practice when dealing with a piece of mail that has been > identified as so spammy that you don't want to receive it is not to > file it away in a spam folder, but to reject it at SMTP time. > > ... At least with an SMTP-time reject, the sending system knows that > the mail has not been safely sent. If it is a human sender than they > can take appropriate action if a mistake has been made. > > Unfortunately Debian's listserv doesn't like it when you do this... > [so I] abandon the SMTP reject best practice policy for mails from > Debian lists. > > You don't have that option, because you don't run your MTA. But the > people who run your MTA are doing the right thing by rejecting email > that they consider too spammy. So although it may be worth asking if > there's anything they can do, it's likely they won't want to do > anything differently there. > >> I cannot currently post to the SOGo list because their spam >> filter (UCEPROTECT) claims that my ISP currently hosts 6 >> spammers. In response, they block all mail from that ISP (called >> UCEPROTECT Level2 protection). Again, getting my ISP to care >> about this is an ongoing challenge. > > Now this one is different. UCEPROTECT doesn't have a good reputation > amongst DNSBLs. They routinely list entire providers for a small > number of incidents and they require a payment to be removed. Ah. That may have something to do with my MTA provider's lack of interest in dealing with UCEPROTECT. > I would call it extremely unwise to outright block email for > UCEPROTECT level 2 listing. ... They will be rejecting a lot of > legitimate email... All you can do is try to persuade them to stop > using UCEPROTECT though. Which can be hard to do if they won't accept my mail. ;-) Thanks, John
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| From | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 12:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BB8nT-8rY-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231067 |
On 01/25/2021 12:03 AM, John Kaufmann wrote: > On 2021-01-23 14:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: >> debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian >> users,and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. >> ... >> There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of >> updating. >> https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser > > Your post provides a hook to ask about a question that arises > sporadically: Probably less than one a month I receive from Debian > Listmaster Team <listmaster@lists.debian.org> a message > "lists.debian.org has received bounces from you". Invariably it reads: >> In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list: >> * debian-user >> 1 bounce out of <nn> mails in one day (<x>%, kick-score is 80%) > > First: How common is this occurrence for others? > I see about the same frequency. It is typically only a single message. When I click on the link to the problem email I easily identify it as spam. I don't know if automatic filtering of posts to various Debian lists would be feasible.
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 14:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BB9WG-14X-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231067 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:11:51AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote: > > > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list: > > > * debian-user > > > 1 bounce out of <nn> mails in one day (<x>%, kick-score is 80%) > > > > First: How common is this occurrence for others? > > It is common enough that it belongs in a FAQ. > > Some subscribers are using corporate (or even non-corporate) email > systems that have aggressive filtering. Some legitimate debian-user > email may be caught by these filters and either rejected outright during > SMTP, or delayed pending review. If it's rejected during SMTP, that'll > certainly trigger the "we've seen bounces" message. I've seen that (not very often) either because my mail server is down or because I fat-fingered some configuration. > For the record, as of today, the email that I receive at this address > undergoes no fewer than *four* types of modifications before I see it: > > 1) The Subject: line is altered. > 2) A two-line disclaimer is inserted at the top of the body. (One very > long line of text, because *obviously* all those Netiquette guides > are wrong, and one blank line.) > 3) All URLs, fully qualified domain names, IP addresses, or any other > content that looks like one of the above to a dumb regex, get > replaced by mimecast URLs. > 4) All attachments that look like they might contain executable code > are removed. This includes shell scripts, perl scripts, etc. Are those modifications added by the Debian mailing list? That'd be strange, because I don't see them... Cheers - t
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| From | Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-25 14:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam |
| Message-ID | <BBag4-1bw-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #231091 |
On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 02:17:34PM +0100, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > Are those modifications added by the Debian mailing list? That'd be > strange, because I don't see them... No. They're done on the receiving end. I'm just letting you know that there's some horrible shit out here in the real world.
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