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Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events

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  Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-06-27 17:40 +0200
    Re: Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Steffen Möller <steffen_moeller@gmx.de> - 2022-06-27 18:00 +0200
    Re: Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Daniel Lange <DLange@debian.org> - 2022-06-27 18:10 +0200
      Re: Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2022-06-27 20:00 +0200
        Re: Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2022-06-27 20:20 +0200
        Re: Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@debian.org> - 2022-06-27 21:30 +0200
        Re: Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Aron Xu <aron@debian.org> - 2022-06-28 09:30 +0200
    Re: Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana <phls@debian.org> - 2022-06-27 20:30 +0200
    Re: Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-06-27 22:00 +0200

#12854 — Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events

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Hi Debianites

There are likely a few different lists that this mail could be 
applicable: bursaries@debconf.o, debconf@ debconf-team@, etc. I chose 
this list to minimize cross-posting and since this could affect policies 
for all our events (not just DebConf) and it's easy to point people 
here. On that note, please don't cross-post.

For DebConf, the bursary policy has varied year-on-year when it comes to 
visas. For some events, visas were completely covered, while for others, 
visas weren't to give more people a chance to attend (where the budget 
was more limited).

This had mixed results, for one, people who had their visa's covered in 
the past may have been surprised to learn that this time round they 
suddenly had to pay $100-200 that they thought would have been covered.

Furthermore, visa requirements tend to affect people from less 
privileged countries the most. If we're serious about diversity, I think 
that we should include covering the visa fee if we offer 
travel+accommodation by default, and that this should be the default for 
DebConf going forward, and ideally for all Debian events.

I realise I have some bias here, I myself come from a country where I 
need a visa nearly everywhere I want to travel to, but I do think that 
including visa fees by default will help making Debian easier to 
contribute to for people who come from such countries, and ultimately 
have a small role in helping us expand to more areas and improve our 
diversity.

I don't think this needs to be a GR per sé, but I'd like to hear the 
views of others on this, and I hope that we can garner enough consensus 
so that we can just go ahead and implement this in our future bursary 
policies.

-Jonathan

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#12855

On 27.06.22 17:34, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> This had mixed results, for one, people who had their visa's covered
> in the past may have been surprised to learn that this time round they
> suddenly had to pay $100-200 that they thought would have been covered.
>
> Furthermore, visa requirements tend to affect people from less
> privileged countries the most. If we're serious about diversity, I
> think that we should include covering the visa fee if we offer
> travel+accommodation by default, and that this should be the default
> for DebConf going forward, and ideally for all Debian events.
A conference is about rendering us all mostly equal - some location,
same food, same discussions. Diversity would also include those who
cannot travel, or who cannot travel alone. I am fine with paying all
travel-associated costs, but not because of diversity, please. Just call
if "fairness" or "equal opportunity" or whatever.
>
> I realise I have some bias here, I myself come from a country where I
> need a visa nearly everywhere I want to travel to, but I do think that
> including visa fees by default will help making Debian easier to
> contribute to for people who come from such countries, and ultimately
> have a small role in helping us expand to more areas and improve our
> diversity.

You mean global coverage.

I agree that it would help the project to have direct contacts to many
regions in the world.

Best,

Steffen

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#12856

Am 27.06.22 um 17:34 schrieb Jonathan Carter:
> I don't think this needs to be a GR per sé, but I'd like to hear the 
> views of others on this, and I hope that we can garner enough consensus 
> so that we can just go ahead and implement this in our future bursary 
> policies.

I think covering travel Visa fees makes a lot of sense.

We had cases in the past that go (far) beyond just the official Visa 
fees though. E.g. a person wanted to fly LA <-> NY to pick up a Visa 
sticker. They asked for the flights plus a hotel night in NY. The team - 
at the time - recommended to use FedEx instead.

Thus I suggest a maximum fee for any Visa related activities, e.g. a 
default of USD 200, adjusted to inflation and (if necessary) relative 
Visa-cost insanity of DebConf hosting countries*. Because sometimes 
travel is required to just get a Visa, e.g. going to a larger city to 
apply in person. Of course - as with all our reimbursement - only the 
actual cost can be claimed with receipts.

* Visa fees are often reciprocal between countries. They are a political 
means much more than an administrative.

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#12857

Hi Daniel (2022.06.27_15:57:52_+0000)
> I think covering travel Visa fees makes a lot of sense.

+1

> Thus I suggest a maximum fee for any Visa related activities, e.g. a default
> of USD 200, adjusted to inflation and (if necessary) relative Visa-cost
> insanity of DebConf hosting countries*. Because sometimes travel is required
> to just get a Visa, e.g. going to a larger city to apply in person. Of
> course - as with all our reimbursement - only the actual cost can be claimed
> with receipts.

That sounds sensible. I'd go one step further and say that any
visa-related travel costs shouldn't be automatically covered, but
require the sign-off of the visa team (for debconf, or DPL otherwise).

In the case of Indian visas this year, it took the local team a few
weeks of effort to find a better solution than travel to Istanbul for
the Indian attendees. I think we want the pressure to be on for visa
team to try to make something like that happen.

I'd also suggest that the bursaries team publish a clearer list of what
is and isn't acceptable for travel reimbursement (e.g. taxis, travel
hotels).

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

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#12858

On 2022-06-27 13 h 43, Stefano Rivera wrote:
> Hi Daniel (2022.06.27_15:57:52_+0000)
>> I think covering travel Visa fees makes a lot of sense.
> 
> +1
> 
>> Thus I suggest a maximum fee for any Visa related activities, e.g. a default
>> of USD 200, adjusted to inflation and (if necessary) relative Visa-cost
>> insanity of DebConf hosting countries*. Because sometimes travel is required
>> to just get a Visa, e.g. going to a larger city to apply in person. Of
>> course - as with all our reimbursement - only the actual cost can be claimed
>> with receipts.

+1

Thanks for thinking about these issues and making attendance to DebConf
easier :)

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Louis-Philippe Véronneau
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   pollo@debian.org / veronneau.org
  ⠈⠳⣄

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#12860

On 27/06/22 at 17:43 +0000, Stefano Rivera wrote:
> Hi Daniel (2022.06.27_15:57:52_+0000)
> > I think covering travel Visa fees makes a lot of sense.
> 
> +1

+1

> > Thus I suggest a maximum fee for any Visa related activities, e.g. a default
> > of USD 200, adjusted to inflation and (if necessary) relative Visa-cost
> > insanity of DebConf hosting countries*. Because sometimes travel is required
> > to just get a Visa, e.g. going to a larger city to apply in person. Of
> > course - as with all our reimbursement - only the actual cost can be claimed
> > with receipts.
> 
> That sounds sensible. I'd go one step further and say that any
> visa-related travel costs shouldn't be automatically covered, but
> require the sign-off of the visa team (for debconf, or DPL otherwise).

Yes. But I don't think that we should have a maximum fee, since the
travel to the nearest embassy/consulate might be expensive in itself,
but rather include this in the total cost in consideration for travel
reimbursement.

Lucas

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#12862

On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 1:53 AM Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel (2022.06.27_15:57:52_+0000)
> > I think covering travel Visa fees makes a lot of sense.
>
> +1
>
> > Thus I suggest a maximum fee for any Visa related activities, e.g. a default
> > of USD 200, adjusted to inflation and (if necessary) relative Visa-cost
> > insanity of DebConf hosting countries*. Because sometimes travel is required
> > to just get a Visa, e.g. going to a larger city to apply in person. Of
> > course - as with all our reimbursement - only the actual cost can be claimed
> > with receipts.
>
> That sounds sensible. I'd go one step further and say that any
> visa-related travel costs shouldn't be automatically covered, but
> require the sign-off of the visa team (for debconf, or DPL otherwise).
>
> In the case of Indian visas this year, it took the local team a few
> weeks of effort to find a better solution than travel to Istanbul for
> the Indian attendees. I think we want the pressure to be on for visa
> team to try to make something like that happen.
>
> I'd also suggest that the bursaries team publish a clearer list of what
> is and isn't acceptable for travel reimbursement (e.g. taxis, travel
> hotels).
>

I think Debian should help cover VISA expenses and I support Stefano's
suggestions.

Perhaps we can cover direct VISA fees by default and handle other
costs (i.e. travel, express delivery, etc) on a case by case basis.
VISA fees are usually already a significant part of costs and having
it covered could help a lot, like Schengen VISA usually costs 80 EUR
and US VISA costs 160 USD.

Regards,
Aron

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#12859

Hi,

Em 27/06/2022 12:34, Jonathan Carter escreveu:
> Hi Debianites
> 
> I don't think this needs to be a GR per sé, but I'd like to hear the 
> views of others on this, and I hope that we can garner enough consensus 
> so that we can just go ahead and implement this in our future bursary 
> policies.

I belive Debian should help with visa costs.

And I would like to suggest Debian (or TOs) contracts a travel agency to 
help those people can't pay for international tickets in advance, and 
wait until after DebConf to get the reimbursement.

I know always there is the possibility someone ask for fly tickets, get 
it from the travel agency and for some reason have to gave up to travel. 
But for those, I belive an agency spending more than 60k in flight 
tickets will have more power to negotiate the reimbursement (or 
re-schedule) from flight companies than each of us.

It's not easy to everybody spend more than USD 1k or 2k to join a 
DebConf and wait months to get the reimbursement.

Best regards,

-- 
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Belo Horizonte - Brasil
Debian Developer
Diretor do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias Livres
Site: http://phls.com.br
GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450

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#12861

On തി, ജൂൺ 27 2022 at 05:34:48 വൈകു +02:00:00 
+02:00:00, Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> wrote:
> Furthermore, visa requirements tend to affect people from less
> privileged countries the most. If we're serious about diversity, I 
> think
> that we should include covering the visa fee if we offer
> travel+accommodation by default, and that this should be the default 
> for
> DebConf going forward, and ideally for all Debian events.

+1 Thanks for this proposal.
> 
> I realise I have some bias here, I myself come from a country where I
> need a visa nearly everywhere I want to travel to, but I do think that
> including visa fees by default will help making Debian easier to
> contribute to for people who come from such countries, and ultimately
> have a small role in helping us expand to more areas and improve our
> diversity.

I think that is a benefit of diversity rather than bias. Having people 
in influencial position with diverse backgrounds makes it easy to 
understand others needs and requirements.

> 
> I don't think this needs to be a GR per sé, but I'd like to hear the
> views of others on this, and I hope that we can garner enough 
> consensus
> so that we can just go ahead and implement this in our future bursary
> policies.
> 
> -Jonathan

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