Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

From	Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project, linux.debian.vote
Subject	Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Date	2019-12-12 11:50 +0100
Message-ID	<zcucF-6dM-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<zcu2Z-6ah-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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 Sorry, I just realized I sent this to the wrong list. It was for
-vote actually.

Gerardo


Il giorno gio 12 dic 2019 alle ore 11:22 Gerardo Ballabio
<gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> Sam, thank you very much for raising this issue and for recognizing
> that there's more than one angle to it.
>
> I tend to agree with Scott. It is well known, at least since George
> Orwell wrote his books, that controlling how people speak means
> controlling how they think. So I believe that this issue is very
> important.
>
> And indeed, in the last decades, redefining language has been a major
> part of the political debate at large, with every group trying to
> "hijack words for their own ends". For example, the pro- and
> contra-abortion parties label themselves as "pro-choice" and
> "pro-life" respectively, that is, they both try to frame the debate by
> presenting themselves as "pushing for a good thing" while the other
> party is pushing against. When you choose which language you use, you
> effectively already take a side. And when you agree to use the other
> party's language, you've already nearly lost the fight.
>
> So this is also inevitably a political issue. It's not just about
> "being polite" (or "welcoming" or "excellent" or whatever). I believe
> that I absolutely have the right to "being impolite" if "being polite"
> means that I must use a language that conveys a political position
> that I oppose.
>
> For example (forgive me if this might seem off-topic, but I think that
> working out the details of an actual example is necessary to make my
> point clear), I do not feel that I should acknowledge people's
> requests to refer to them by their "preferred pronouns". That is
> because I believe that people's sexual identities are determined by
> objective facts, such as which chromosomes are there in their DNA, and
> not by how they subjectively "perceive themselves". So when I refuse
> to refer to a person with XY chromosomes as "she", or to abuse the
> English language by calling an individual "they", in fact I am
> defending my world view, and you must not deprive me of that right.
> (May I remember that the incident that led to Norbert Preining's
> temporary suspension from Debian started with him using "the wrong
> pronoun" in a blog post!)
>
> And while Debian isn't a government, neither it is an island somewhere
> out of the "real world". So we can't pretend that we can leave that
> out.
>
> Gerardo

Thread

Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-12-12 11:40 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-12-12 11:50 +0100
    Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <leader@debian.org> - 2019-12-12 13:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-12 13:50 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-12-12 15:40 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-12-12 21:50 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2019-12-12 12:20 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC "Adam D. Barratt" <adam@adam-barratt.org.uk> - 2019-12-12 12:30 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> - 2019-12-12 13:00 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-12-12 18:00 +0100
    Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-12 23:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-12-13 00:10 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-12-13 02:40 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-12-13 07:40 +0100
            Language on Debian lists [was: Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and  the CoC, lglg] Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-12-17 16:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 05:50 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-12-13 06:00 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-13 07:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 07:50 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 08:10 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 08:30 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2019-12-13 17:30 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 17:40 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-12-13 21:50 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2019-12-15 22:10 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org> - 2019-12-15 23:00 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-17 02:40 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-12-17 03:30 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2019-12-17 08:50 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-12-17 13:00 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC "Sylvain L. Sauvage" <sylvain.l.sauvage@free.fr> - 2019-12-17 14:00 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 08:20 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Steffen Möller <steffen_moeller@gmx.de> - 2019-12-13 11:50 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> - 2019-12-13 10:00 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-12-13 11:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2019-12-13 13:10 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-12-13 15:30 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-12-13 16:20 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-12-14 00:10 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> - 2019-12-13 20:40 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tina@tincho.org> - 2019-12-19 21:10 +0100
    Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2019-12-19 21:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-20 13:00 +0100
    Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-20 05:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-12-20 14:00 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-12-21 00:50 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 02:30 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-12-22 00:30 +0100
              +1 (Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-12-22 11:30 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Tim Webster <tdwebste@gmail.com> - 2020-01-05 17:30 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <leader@debian.org> - 2020-01-05 18:40 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2020-01-07 14:00 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-12-20 23:50 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 00:30 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 02:20 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <tiago@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 04:30 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC gagz <gagz@immerda.ch> - 2019-12-21 21:10 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tina@tincho.org> - 2019-12-24 17:00 +0100
          I get to hope Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-24 19:20 +0100
            Re: I get to hope Andy Simpkins <andy@koipond.org.uk> - 2019-12-24 22:30 +0100
              Re: I get to hope Rhonda D'Vine <rhonda@deb.at> - 2019-12-25 13:10 +0100
            Re: I get to hope gagz <gagz@immerda.ch> - 2019-12-25 04:20 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 21:50 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2019-12-22 10:50 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 12:20 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC gagz <gagz@immerda.ch> - 2019-12-24 14:40 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2019-12-23 22:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tina@tincho.org> - 2019-12-24 16:20 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-12-25 23:00 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-12-25 23:30 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-12-22 17:40 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-23 01:40 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 13:20 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 18:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 13:40 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 17:50 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 19:20 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 22:20 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 23:20 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-12-24 10:40 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-12-24 15:50 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Rhonda D'Vine <rhonda@deb.at> - 2019-12-24 13:00 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-26 13:30 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-28 01:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Dato Simó <dato@debian.org> - 2019-12-30 23:10 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2019-12-31 10:20 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-12-31 11:10 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2019-12-31 11:10 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-12-31 11:40 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-12-31 21:50 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-12-31 22:20 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2020-01-01 14:50 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Brian Gupta <brian.gupta@brandorr.com> - 2020-01-04 02:40 +0100

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