Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

From	Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Date	2019-12-13 16:20 +0100
Message-ID	<zcUTv-62T-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<zcU78-5wX-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

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I concur with Scott, personally, I find content of Geraldo’s email(s) totally unacceptable at the same time as I find the language of Tina’s email inappropriate.

Ondřej
--
Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org>

> On 13 Dec 2019, at 15:21, Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On December 13, 2019 11:53:21 AM UTC, Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 10:49:12AM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
>>> 
>>> No, either we have a CoC or not.
>>> If it goes so much against your believes, humanity or whatever else,
>>> that you can't answer in a sane language, ask somebody else to answer
>>> in your name. Especially when you are in a team that wants to keep
>>> the CoC upright.
>> 
>> If one focuses on Tina instead of looking at Gerardo's history of
>> behaviour on Debian list, and is actually in common faith trying to
>> make
>> sense of an extreme reaction, I suggest these links for a bit of
>> context:
>> 
>> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
>> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing
>> *
>> https://blog.valerieaurora.org/2019/01/09/repost-how-calls-for-civility-are-harming-tech-companies/
>> 
>> TL;DR: there is a widespread form of oppression which consists in
>> politely but relentlessly asking minorities to justify themselves.
>> 
>> As long as we allow it to happen in Debian list, as I observe that we
>> do, I do expect that somebody loses it at some point. I believe that
>> the
>> person who engages in sealioning, and those who enable them to continue
>> doing so, should at least get to share in the blame.
> 
> I disagree that's what's happening here.
> 
> I expect that virtually no one in Debian finds Gerardo's message acceptable (speaking for myself, I don't).  I think Joerg's reply to it addressed it directly and completely.  I don't think his (Joerg's) point of view is at all controversial in Debian.  No one (except Gerardo) is asking anyone to justify their existence.
> 
> I even understand getting very upset about a message like that and using intemperate language.  It's not like I haven't done it myself for other reasons.
> 
> For me, if Martina had expressed some recognition that the choice of language was not appropriate for a Debian list (remember, I'm specifically not talking about the content, I've no significant issue with that), then that would have been the end of it for me.  We all make mistakes.
> 
> That's not what happened though.  They claimed a special privilege to use language that would not be acceptable for others to use on Debian lists.  I find that generally troubling, particularly so for someone who has claimed the role of an interpreter of the CoC.
> 
> Scott K
> 
> P.S. FOAD, when I kvetched about use of language on -vote and inadvertently set off this thread, things like Gerardo's views on gender were absolutely not what I was talking about.
>

Thread

Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-12-12 11:40 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-12-12 11:50 +0100
    Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <leader@debian.org> - 2019-12-12 13:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-12 13:50 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-12-12 15:40 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-12-12 21:50 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2019-12-12 12:20 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC "Adam D. Barratt" <adam@adam-barratt.org.uk> - 2019-12-12 12:30 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> - 2019-12-12 13:00 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-12-12 18:00 +0100
    Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-12 23:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-12-13 00:10 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-12-13 02:40 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-12-13 07:40 +0100
            Language on Debian lists [was: Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and  the CoC, lglg] Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-12-17 16:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 05:50 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-12-13 06:00 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-13 07:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 07:50 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 08:10 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 08:30 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2019-12-13 17:30 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 17:40 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-12-13 21:50 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2019-12-15 22:10 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org> - 2019-12-15 23:00 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-17 02:40 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-12-17 03:30 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2019-12-17 08:50 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-12-17 13:00 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC "Sylvain L. Sauvage" <sylvain.l.sauvage@free.fr> - 2019-12-17 14:00 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-12-13 08:20 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Steffen Möller <steffen_moeller@gmx.de> - 2019-12-13 11:50 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> - 2019-12-13 10:00 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-12-13 11:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2019-12-13 13:10 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-12-13 15:30 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-12-13 16:20 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-12-14 00:10 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org> - 2019-12-13 20:40 +0100
  Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tina@tincho.org> - 2019-12-19 21:10 +0100
    Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2019-12-19 21:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-20 13:00 +0100
    Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-20 05:40 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-12-20 14:00 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-12-21 00:50 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 02:30 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2019-12-22 00:30 +0100
              +1 (Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-12-22 11:30 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Tim Webster <tdwebste@gmail.com> - 2020-01-05 17:30 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <leader@debian.org> - 2020-01-05 18:40 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2020-01-07 14:00 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-12-20 23:50 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 00:30 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 02:20 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <tiago@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 04:30 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC gagz <gagz@immerda.ch> - 2019-12-21 21:10 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tina@tincho.org> - 2019-12-24 17:00 +0100
          I get to hope Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-24 19:20 +0100
            Re: I get to hope Andy Simpkins <andy@koipond.org.uk> - 2019-12-24 22:30 +0100
              Re: I get to hope Rhonda D'Vine <rhonda@deb.at> - 2019-12-25 13:10 +0100
            Re: I get to hope gagz <gagz@immerda.ch> - 2019-12-25 04:20 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2019-12-21 21:50 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2019-12-22 10:50 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 12:20 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC gagz <gagz@immerda.ch> - 2019-12-24 14:40 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2019-12-23 22:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Martina Ferrari <tina@tincho.org> - 2019-12-24 16:20 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-12-25 23:00 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-12-25 23:30 +0100
      Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-12-22 17:40 +0100
        Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-23 01:40 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 13:20 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 18:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 13:40 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 17:50 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 19:20 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 22:20 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-12-23 23:20 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-12-24 10:40 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-12-24 15:50 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Rhonda D'Vine <rhonda@deb.at> - 2019-12-24 13:00 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-26 13:30 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-12-28 01:00 +0100
          Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Dato Simó <dato@debian.org> - 2019-12-30 23:10 +0100
            Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2019-12-31 10:20 +0100
              Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-12-31 11:10 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2019-12-31 11:10 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-12-31 11:40 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-12-31 21:50 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-12-31 22:20 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2020-01-01 14:50 +0100
                Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC Brian Gupta <brian.gupta@brandorr.com> - 2020-01-04 02:40 +0100

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