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Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

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On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> writes:
>
>     Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote:
>     >>
>     Eldon> <snip>
>     >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
>     >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
>     >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor
>     >> announces she is trans.
>     >>
>     >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in
>     >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless
>     >> and with every good wish, as ever,
>     >>
>     >> Andy C.
>     >>
>
>     Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project
>     Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who
>     Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it.
>
> Perhaps.
> But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important.
>
> For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt
> when  we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and
> that ends up being controversial.
>
> Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month.
> We talked about what that meant to Debian:
> https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html
>
> That blog post is about what joining  Pride celebrations means to
> Debian.
> And it is directly and completely about inclusion.
>

I had not seen that post before, and I don't see it referenced
elsewhere in this thread.

I think this thread started with a fundamental misunderstanding on the
meaning/purpose of the logo.  From that post, it sounds like it is not
intended specifically as a pride logo, but a logo for diversity in
general used by the diversity team.  That actually changes a lot for
me.  Maybe it was discussed on another list which I do not follow.

> And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts.
> And discussing and arguing about it is draining.
>
> And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions.
> And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that
> Debian is making political statements that they disagree with.
>
> So perhaps this discussion needs to happen.
> And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community.
>
> But I ask you not to deny that pain.  Do not pretend that it's "just
> concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion.
> Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved.
>

For me, these _are_ honest concerns -- and I would have the same
concerns about using any debian logo that was for a specific group (it
appears this one was not, I believe that was the misunderstanding that
led to this thread) -- namely how do we fairly decide which groups
should get their own logos on debian.org and on which days without
becoming very political?  I apologize if my message was dismissive or
otherwise unsympathetic, it wasn't intended as such.  The message I
was replying to felt like an outright attack against anyone who had
voiced concerns, and I did not feel the claims were accurate.

> And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having
> it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt.
>
> I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain.  But I am
> asking you to show compassion.
>
> --Sam



-- 
Eldon Koyle

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> writes:
>
>     Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote:
>     >>
>     Eldon> <snip>
>     >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
>     >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
>     >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor
>     >> announces she is trans.
>     >>
>     >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in
>     >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless
>     >> and with every good wish, as ever,
>     >>
>     >> Andy C.
>     >>
>
>     Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project
>     Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who
>     Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it.
>
> Perhaps.
> But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important.
>
> For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt
> when  we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and
> that ends up being controversial.
>
> Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month.
> We talked about what that meant to Debian:
> https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html
>
> That blog post is about what joining  Pride celebrations means to
> Debian.
> And it is directly and completely about inclusion.
>
> And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts.
> And discussing and arguing about it is draining.
>
> And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions.
> And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that
> Debian is making political statements that they disagree with.
>
> So perhaps this discussion needs to happen.
> And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community.
>
> But I ask you not to deny that pain.  Do not pretend that it's "just
> concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion.
> Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved.
>
> And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having
> it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt.
>
> I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain.  But I am
> asking you to show compassion.
>
> --Sam



-- 
Eldon Koyle

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Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 12:40 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 14:00 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-06-28 14:20 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 06:20 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-06-29 13:00 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 21:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 01:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 18:50 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 19:20 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-01 19:50 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 21:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-02 16:00 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 23:40 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 00:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 10:40 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:00 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> - 2019-07-02 17:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
                Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 18:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 20:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-06 21:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-06 21:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 23:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-07 00:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-07 10:30 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 17:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
                Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-02 23:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 14:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@rince.de> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 17:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 15:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 18:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 19:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 20:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 21:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 22:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 23:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2019-07-04 10:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 12:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them "Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 17:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Mark Brown <broonie@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-16 10:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 10:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 14:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2019-07-04 15:20 +0200
                What can I do if I disagree with  a Delegate's Decision Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-08 18:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 15:30 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 20:30 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2019-07-01 20:50 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 01:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 01:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 02:40 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 06:20 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-01 20:40 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 18:20 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:50 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 17:10 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 18:10 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:00 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:30 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 16:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-06-28 16:20 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200

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