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Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

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On 7/1/19 9:10 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> writes:
>
>> In my opinion, and as Russ explained about becoming political is
>> basically unavoidable, I would be actually up for celebrating things
>> that can (should?) be worldwide celebrated - community celebrating Pride
>> Month is in my opinion a worldwide community. Celebrating specific
>> racial/national/religious things, I think that should be left out for
>> multiple reasons: nations change through history and if you celebrate
>> holiday of one nation, you can easily miss how it offends the other
>> nation, same goes for race and religion.
>> So LGQBT, Software Freedom, Universal Healthcare, Basic Income etc - yes
>> (it affects all human kind)
>> Hispanic/Black/Jewish/Green/Orange/Blue things - no, because they are
>> specific to certain group and diversity statement is all-inclusive for
>> that purpose, no need to pinpoint specific groups.
> I wonder if this may be a cultural difference (and by saying that, I want
> to stress that means that I think different members of the project will
> arrive at different conclusions entirely in good faith, and there's no
> real objective right or wrong).
In my case, it might be very well the cultural difference but I learn 
and grow every day, so it is always welcome to get nice responses at 
topics that might confuse people.
>
> For example, my employer (Dropbox, for what it's worth, but I think this
> is common among a lot of our peer companies) celebrates Black, Hispanic,
> and Asian and Pacific Islander months (and I'm pretty sure others that
> aren't occuring to me), along with things like Diwali, Ramadan, and
> Passover (and of course Christmas and Easter), all in different ways.
> These are generally self-organized by employees for whom these events are
> meaningful, they're entirely optional, and they focus on talking about
> food, heritage, art, personal history, and other similar things that vary
> in their specifics but unite us as humans.  The point of this is to
> recognize that people are different and bring those differences to the
> workplace as part of their whole selves, people don't have to fit into a
> single model or mold, and learning about other people and the things they
> find meaningful is inherently interesting and broadens perspective and
> helps us all work together more smoothly.
Companies are doing that lately, imo, because of peer pressure to do it 
as they could also loose profit in it. Not saying all companies do (and 
most small-medium tech companies seem to do because they really want) 
but many do and that is what brought to creation of People's Pride Month 
while we are at it. Sorry my ignorance, does Dropbox write blog posts 
about such celebrations and change its logo? Also Debian is a worldwide 
community, so we are not in office where people could invest time to 
prepare celebrations which would be super visible to others. That said, 
yes, we can do better blogging.
>
> This is a fair amount of work (I don't know that Debian should try to
> tackle that many events unless members of our community are asking), and
> it does require a bit of effort to be thoughtful about how to organize
> such events, but I think it's valuable.  But that's my cultural
> background; that's the sort of thing that I'm used to, so when it comes up
> in the Debian context, that's the spirit in which I take it.
>
> Other folks may have much different personal experiences and therefore may
> take it in different ways.  This may be something that's literally never
> done in your workplaces or in your society, and thus something that seems
> strange or unnecessary.
I work remotely almost my entire life, so I can't really speak about it 
but as country, except major religious events for nations that are 
majority here, you are correct, we don't. This indeed is cultural things 
as we are not very multicultural from where I come sadly so celebrating 
anything else wouldn't take an echo.
>
> However, I *don't* think that saying we therefore shouldn't ever touch any
> of these topics is either workable or wise.  Like it or not, humans are
> inherently political (political comes from the root word polis, or public
> life, which is unavoidable whenever there is a public).  For people coming
> from a culture where this sort of acknowledgement is common, *not*
> acknowledging someone's meaningful celebrations is *also* a political
> statement, particularly if it's done because someone's culture is deemed
> "controversial."  There is no easy default action here; we're a large
> enough project with a large enough community that we have to wrestle with
> this in one way or another.
>
> Anyway, personally I'd rather err on the side of *more* celebration of the
> diversity of people in the Debian project, including noting meaningful
> days and events for them, because I think it says something important
> about our community.  It says that we're a world-wide community of people
> from a huge variety of backgrounds and interests, and that diversity is
> also reflected in our huge diversity of packages and the universality of
> our operating system.
These sections and your next mail (which was absolutely superior in 
response, I just love reading your mails) made me clearly realize your 
points. While I never said points other raised, not did I imply that we 
need "White Male" celebration, it did resonate with me what not doing 
one or doing other or even taking neutral path and avoiding entirely 
this would mean. Maybe I am still getting it wrong, but now I support 
the view that we need to more prominently show that we are a happy place 
and that we love having diversity as community (and Debian, like it or 
not, has grown over being a small hobby software project).
>
>> That said, I like celebrations (good way to find out about different
>> cultures/things), so maybe, just maybe we could have these things still
>> being issued by Publicity Team but with some specific Headline Tag like
>> "Debian Diversity Celebration: Today we celebrate US Black Heritage" and
>> then some text about its history etc - that way it would be informative
>> and fun IMHO.
> This is, for what it's worth, roughly what US corporations tend to do.
> (Personally, I think we should always strive to be better than a typical
> corporation, not being much of a personal fan of capitalism, but they do
> spend a fair amount of time thinking about how to navigate these sorts of
> things among large numbers of humans who are forced together by something
> largely unrelated to their personal backgrounds.)

Again, I think they are doing this mostly for peer pressure, the same 
way in past companies that maybe would do right thing, didn't because 
political climate was different.

Anyway, thanks Russ and others on good replies to this topic. Indeed, my 
opinion changed and I would be very happy to see more prominent 
celebrations of minorities and marginalized groups of people so we can 
level at least Debian for them while entire society comes to that point.

Cheers,

Z

P.S. I just today realized that Debian Diversity logo is the same one 
used for celebrating Pride Month, that is actually very nice

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Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 12:40 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 14:00 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-06-28 14:20 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 06:20 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-06-29 13:00 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 21:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 01:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 18:50 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 19:20 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-01 19:50 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 21:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-02 16:00 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 23:40 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 00:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 10:40 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:00 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> - 2019-07-02 17:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
                Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 18:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 20:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-06 21:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-06 21:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 23:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:20 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-07 00:40 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-07 10:30 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:10 +0200
                Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 17:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
                Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-02 23:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 14:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@rince.de> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 17:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 15:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 18:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 19:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 20:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 21:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 22:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 23:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2019-07-04 10:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:10 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 12:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them "Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 17:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Mark Brown <broonie@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-16 10:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:00 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:30 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 10:20 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:50 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 14:40 +0200
                Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2019-07-04 15:20 +0200
                What can I do if I disagree with  a Delegate's Decision Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-08 18:50 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 15:30 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 20:30 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2019-07-01 20:50 +0200
              Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 01:10 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 01:30 +0200
                Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 02:40 +0200
            Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 06:20 +0200
          Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-01 20:40 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 18:20 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:50 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 17:10 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 18:10 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:00 +0200
    Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:30 +0200
      Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 16:00 +0200
        Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-06-28 16:20 +0200
  Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200

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