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Groups > linux.debian.project > #10604 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200 |
| Last post | 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200 |
| Articles | 14 on this page of 94 — 39 participants |
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Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 12:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 14:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-06-28 14:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 06:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2019-06-29 13:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 21:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-29 01:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 18:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 19:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-01 19:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 21:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-02 16:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 23:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 00:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 10:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 11:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> - 2019-07-02 17:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 11:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 12:30 +0200
Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:20 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:40 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-02 14:50 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 18:10 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 20:10 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-06 21:20 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@formorer.de> - 2019-07-06 20:50 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-06 21:40 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> - 2019-07-06 23:20 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:20 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-07-07 00:40 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Alexander Wirt <formorer@debian.org> - 2019-07-07 10:30 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course Mathias Behrle <mathiasb@m9s.biz> - 2019-07-07 00:10 +0200
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 17:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 22:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2019-07-02 23:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 14:10 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@rince.de> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 15:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-07-03 17:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 15:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 15:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Jason Crain <jason@inspiresomeone.us> - 2019-07-03 18:40 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 19:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 20:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 21:10 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-03 22:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Fabian Grünbichler <fabian.gruenbichler@student.tuwien.ac.at> - 2019-07-03 23:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Nikolaus Rath <Nikolaus@rath.org> - 2019-07-04 10:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 16:40 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:10 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 12:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them "Chris Lamb" <lamby@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 17:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Mark Brown <broonie@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2019-07-16 10:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 18:00 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:30 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 10:20 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 13:50 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 14:40 +0200
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2019-07-04 15:20 +0200
What can I do if I disagree with a Delegate's Decision Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-08 18:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2019-07-02 15:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 15:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-01 20:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2019-07-01 20:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 01:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 01:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 02:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> - 2019-07-02 06:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-07-01 20:40 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 18:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 12:50 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 17:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 18:10 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 15:30 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-28 16:00 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-06-28 16:20 +0200
Re: Debian supports pridemonth? Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200
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| From | Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 01:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfdAR-1r1-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10634 |
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote: > <snip> > Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply, > deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about > pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor announces > she is trans. > > Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in every > social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless and with every > good wish, as ever, > > Andy C. > It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it. -- Eldon Koyle
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| From | Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 01:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfdUd-1xU-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10641 |
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>>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> writes:
Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote:
>>
Eldon> <snip>
>> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
>> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
>> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor
>> announces she is trans.
>>
>> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in
>> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless
>> and with every good wish, as ever,
>>
>> Andy C.
>>
Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project
Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who
Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it.
Perhaps.
But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important.
For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt
when we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and
that ends up being controversial.
Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month.
We talked about what that meant to Debian:
https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html
That blog post is about what joining Pride celebrations means to
Debian.
And it is directly and completely about inclusion.
And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts.
And discussing and arguing about it is draining.
And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions.
And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that
Debian is making political statements that they disagree with.
So perhaps this discussion needs to happen.
And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community.
But I ask you not to deny that pain. Do not pretend that it's "just
concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion.
Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved.
And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having
it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt.
I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain. But I am
asking you to show compassion.
--Sam
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| From | Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 02:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfeZX-2aI-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10641 |
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> wrote: > > >>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> writes: > > Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote: > >> > Eldon> <snip> > >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply, > >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about > >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor > >> announces she is trans. > >> > >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in > >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless > >> and with every good wish, as ever, > >> > >> Andy C. > >> > > Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project > Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who > Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it. > > Perhaps. > But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important. > > For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt > when we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and > that ends up being controversial. > > Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month. > We talked about what that meant to Debian: > https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html > > That blog post is about what joining Pride celebrations means to > Debian. > And it is directly and completely about inclusion. > I had not seen that post before, and I don't see it referenced elsewhere in this thread. I think this thread started with a fundamental misunderstanding on the meaning/purpose of the logo. From that post, it sounds like it is not intended specifically as a pride logo, but a logo for diversity in general used by the diversity team. That actually changes a lot for me. Maybe it was discussed on another list which I do not follow. > And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts. > And discussing and arguing about it is draining. > > And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions. > And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that > Debian is making political statements that they disagree with. > > So perhaps this discussion needs to happen. > And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community. > > But I ask you not to deny that pain. Do not pretend that it's "just > concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion. > Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved. > For me, these _are_ honest concerns -- and I would have the same concerns about using any debian logo that was for a specific group (it appears this one was not, I believe that was the misunderstanding that led to this thread) -- namely how do we fairly decide which groups should get their own logos on debian.org and on which days without becoming very political? I apologize if my message was dismissive or otherwise unsympathetic, it wasn't intended as such. The message I was replying to felt like an outright attack against anyone who had voiced concerns, and I did not feel the claims were accurate. > And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having > it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt. > > I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain. But I am > asking you to show compassion. > > --Sam -- Eldon Koyle On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> wrote: > > >>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> writes: > > Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote: > >> > Eldon> <snip> > >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply, > >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about > >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor > >> announces she is trans. > >> > >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in > >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless > >> and with every good wish, as ever, > >> > >> Andy C. > >> > > Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project > Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who > Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it. > > Perhaps. > But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important. > > For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt > when we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and > that ends up being controversial. > > Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month. > We talked about what that meant to Debian: > https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html > > That blog post is about what joining Pride celebrations means to > Debian. > And it is directly and completely about inclusion. > > And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts. > And discussing and arguing about it is draining. > > And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions. > And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that > Debian is making political statements that they disagree with. > > So perhaps this discussion needs to happen. > And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community. > > But I ask you not to deny that pain. Do not pretend that it's "just > concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion. > Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved. > > And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having > it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt. > > I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain. But I am > asking you to show compassion. > > --Sam -- Eldon Koyle
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| From | Martina Ferrari <tincho@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-02 06:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yfiqR-4mk-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10632 |
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On 01/07/2019 19:22, Sam Hartman wrote: > Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be > Adrian> dangerous. > > Absolutely. > I think that each time we should link what we're doing back to our goal > of making a great free software operating system for our users. > And link back to our priorities of our users and free software. > In this instance, the link is obvious for me. > We as a community have decided that being inclusive helps us make a > great free software operating system. I don't think we want to be inclusive to make a better OS. Like we don't work on free software just because it lead to better software quality. We know that is not necessarily true, and we know that we do free software because we believe it it. Similarly, I think the Diversity Statement reflects what another facet of what we believe in: that "The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone" not for any particular practical gain, but because we want to embrace our colleagues from any and all different backgrounds, because they are people just like us. -- -- Martina Ferrari (Tina, the artist formerly known as Tincho)
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-07-01 20:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <yf9nA-7bx-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10628 |
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 07:40:23PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a purely technical > project and abstain from making any political statements, except ones > strongly related to being a Linux distribution. Yes please! Let's keep Debian about technology and bring Debian back to technical leadership. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
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| From | Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 18:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ye1Lr-5Qa-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10605 |
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:30 AM Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> wrote: > > On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote: > > I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one > > thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of > > events with a definite political connotation. <snip> > > Probably a bit of a stretch to call it political. As far as I > understand, all that it's about is a shared stance against bigotry and > letting people know that it's ok to be different and that we accept > people from a wide variety of walks of life. Seems in line with our > current policies so I don't really see much of an issue there. <snip> It is no stretch to call pridemonth political. It is organized by extremely political groups in an effort to further political and societal goals (regardless of how you view their goals). Or are you claiming that it is a stretch to call the logo change a political statement? -- Eldon Koyle
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| From | "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 12:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydWC5-2CR-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10604 |
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At 2019-06-28T11:48:18+0200, Gerardo Ballabio wrote: > Hello all, > I've just seen this on https://micronews.debian.org/ : > > "In support of #pridemonth, Debian changes its website logo. The > Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone > https://www.debian.org/intro/diversity " > > May I please ask who decided that and where was it discussed? (I can't > find anything about it at least on -project.) It's consistent with what I personally perceive to have been the values of the project for at least the past 20 years. > I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one > thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of > events with a definite political connotation. Can you please articulate: 1. what the definite political connotation of Pride Month is (feel free to cite a representative source); 2. how it is in conflict with the position statement at the official project URL you cite above; and 3. what aspect of the political connotation of Pride Month you find objectionable, if any. > I don't think that Debian should take sides on any specific political > issues (except of course issues that have a relation to free > software), A great many issues have a relation to Free Software; among them is the problem of discrimination against and devaluation of software contributors and professionals who identify as non-cis, non-straight, and/or non-binary. More broadly, I consider the political project of not mere tolerance, but an embrace of diversity as consistent with the liberal tradition of John Stuart Mill, which is some centuries old and underpins the cultural milieu which gave rise to the Debian Project in the first place. > especially if that hasn't been discussed at large among project > members and there isn't a clear consensus. It has been discussed for many years, and in my estimation the Project reached a position of non-accommodation with those hostile to the values celebrated by Pride Month. It may be worth remembering that Pride Month originates as a commemoration of a resistance action against a culture of police violence and impunity. The Stonewall Riots of 1969 are well-known in the United States. > Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten > me) or do others share my concern? It is worthwhile on occasion to revisit even fundamental questions and positions, and evaluate whether they continue to the serve our project. From my perspective, Pride Month has many objectives yet to achieve. For instance, Taiwan recently became the _first_ nation in Asia to legalize same-sex marriage, not the last. It's widely agreed that Asia is a big place with lots of people. Just to set a milestone, perhaps we can revisit this question when over half the world's population enjoys a right to same-sex marriage. Regards, Branden
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| From | Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 17:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ye0FI-5dU-25@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10606 |
Il giorno ven 28 giu 2019 alle ore 12:45 G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> ha scritto: > Can you please articulate: > 1. what the definite political connotation of Pride Month is (feel free > to cite a representative source); > 2. how it is in conflict with the position statement at the official > project URL you cite above; and > 3. what aspect of the political connotation of Pride Month you find > objectionable, if any. 1. Please excuse me if I don't spend the time to find proper sources. I believe it's widely agreed that there is a significant correlation between supporters of Pride Month and of its goals (see point 3) and supporters of left-wing political parties. 2. I don't think there is necessarily a conflict, but I don't think that Debian should give public support to every initiative so long as it just does not conflict with it, particularly if that initiative is known to be divisive. 3. This is something I don't really think is on-topic on this list, or in Debian at large. However, since you asked, I especially find objectionable: - support for same-sex marriage - support for adoption of children by same-sex couples. > A great many issues have a relation to Free Software; among them is the > problem of discrimination against and devaluation of software > contributors and professionals who identify as non-cis, non-straight, > and/or non-binary. I would have no problems to support an initiative that advocates just that and does not mix it with other, more controversial issues (see above). I also hope there will not be a similar problem of discrimination against people who don't agree with (some or all of) "the values celebrated by Pride Month". > From my perspective, Pride Month has many objectives yet to achieve. > For instance, Taiwan recently became the _first_ nation in Asia to > legalize same-sex marriage, not the last. It's widely agreed that Asia > is a big place with lots of people. Just to set a milestone, perhaps we > can revisit this question when over half the world's population enjoys a > right to same-sex marriage. I gather from this that you regard same-sex marriage and other similar issues as unconditionally "good things" -- so that the only reason not to push for those would be that they have been already accepted by everybody. If that's your perspective then I understand how you can't possibly see any problem with Debian supporting initiatives like Pride Month. But please consider that there are many people that do not share that view. Gerardo
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| From | Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 18:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ye1BL-5MX-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10614 |
>> 3. what aspect of the political connotation of Pride Month you find >> objectionable, if any. >3. This is something I don't really think is on-topic on this list, or >in Debian at large. However, since you asked, I especially find Hi. I think your first inclination was right. I don't think it was appropriate for Branden to ask you your politics, and I agree with you that it's off topic for Debian. Thank you very much for being open and honest, but let's not discuss that particular sub thread any further. You shouldn't need to share your objections to pride month, and you should not have to face us critiquing them. It is in fact not really on topic.
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| From | Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 15:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydYDT-3Nk-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10604 |
Hi. Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has already been covered. This was discussed by the debian publicity team who is delegated to do this sort of thing. In particular, they are charged by the project and DPL to promote Debian consistent with its policies and their choices. Like most of our teams they have significant latitude. In this instance, they are guided by the constitution which encourages delegates to respect project consensus/policies/positions. So, they are guided by the GR approving the diversity statement. This action was discussed on their public list.
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| From | Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 15:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydZ6V-4cw-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10609 |
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 08:56:03AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > Hi. > Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has > already been covered. > > This was discussed by the debian publicity team who is delegated to do > this sort of thing. In particular, they are charged by the project and > DPL to promote Debian consistent with its policies and their choices. > Like most of our teams they have significant latitude. In this > instance, they are guided by the constitution which encourages delegates > to respect project consensus/policies/positions. So, they are guided by > the GR approving the diversity statement. > > This action was discussed on their public list. > Hmm. That's interesting. The thread began with a message bearing the subject line "Small actions and large impacts" on 2nd June. The final message in the thread, dated more than three weeks after the initial message and 19 days after the most recent prior message, changed the subject to "Debian Diversity logo in webpage, please update translations". It included the following text: "We have changed the main website logo too (visible in every webpage under www.debian.org), and published a micronews:" That indicates that the change had already been made at that point. It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to conceal the action, nor do I mean to imply such. However, the start of the thread was practically invisible (especially for someone monitoring many Debian-related mailing lists). I would be surprised if more than a very small handful people even knew such a change was in the works. Perhaps there should be an effort to better highlight such highly visible things before they take effect? Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
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| From | Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 16:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydZzX-4mr-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10610 |
>>>>> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes:
Roberto> It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to
Roberto> conceal the action, nor do I mean to imply such. However,
Roberto> the start of the thread was practically invisible
Roberto> (especially for someone monitoring many Debian-related
Roberto> mailing lists). I would be surprised if more than a very
Roberto> small handful people even knew such a change was in the
Roberto> works.
The interesting question is whether those active in the publicity team
were aware of the change.
The whole point of delegation is to allow small groups of people to act
quickly without reaching project consensus for everything.
If we're hearing from active parts of the www or publicity team that
this was inadequately discussed, that's one thing.
The publicity team can seek broader project input when they need to, but
has wide latitude within their area of responsibility.
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| From | Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 16:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydZTj-4I5-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10612 |
On 28 Jun 2019, at 15:55, Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> wrote: >>>>>> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes: > > Roberto> It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to > Roberto> conceal the action, nor do I mean to imply such. However, > Roberto> the start of the thread was practically invisible > Roberto> (especially for someone monitoring many Debian-related > Roberto> mailing lists). I would be surprised if more than a very > Roberto> small handful people even knew such a change was in the > Roberto> works. > > The interesting question is whether those active in the publicity team > were aware of the change. > The whole point of delegation is to allow small groups of people to act > quickly without reaching project consensus for everything. > > If we're hearing from active parts of the www or publicity team that > this was inadequately discussed, that's one thing. > > The publicity team can seek broader project input when they need to, but > has wide latitude within their area of responsibility. And that’s how it should be. Thanks, Sam! Ondřej -- Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org>
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| From | Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-06-28 15:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ydZgB-4fF-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #10604 |
Thanks for answering that specific question. I did indeed miss that. Replying separately to the other posters. Gerardo Il giorno ven 28 giu 2019 alle ore 14:56 Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> ha scritto: > > Hi. > Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has > already been covered. > > This was discussed by the debian publicity team who is delegated to do > this sort of thing. In particular, they are charged by the project and > DPL to promote Debian consistent with its policies and their choices. > Like most of our teams they have significant latitude. In this > instance, they are guided by the constitution which encourages delegates > to respect project consensus/policies/positions. So, they are guided by > the GR approving the diversity statement. > > This action was discussed on their public list.
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