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Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF

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Hey folks,

We had a Python Team BoF at DC22 earlier today and I thought relaying 
the notes we took in gobby here would be a good idea.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
== python3.11 ==

python3.11 release has been delayed, from october 2022 to december 2022.

python3.12 is planned for october 2023.

Debian testing freeze for transitions is in January 2023, which is very 
tight.

Do we want to try python3.11 in bookworm, or do we delay it for after 
the freeze?

One problem we'll likely have, is upstream python libraries might not 
have started playing with 3.11 already. It might be hard to try to use 
beta versions right now to try and prepare the transition.

Once the default version in the archive has changed, it's hard to revert 
to an older one.

Some packages like pandas and numba (and dart?) might need an exception 
from the Release Team to allow us to upload versions more compatible 
with 3.11 after the bookworm release.

For sure, this is a lot of work for me (zigo) on the OpenStack packages. 
On each Python 3 release, this makes me fix lots of stuff. At the 
moment, upstream OpenStack isn't even on Python 1.10 on its CI...

As a datapoint, Ruby always releases on Christmas, and the Ruby team has 
never even attempted to push that as a default in the next Debian stable 
release.

3.11 beta 4 is already in unstable, people can start trying to build 
against it.

3.10 EOL is october 2026.

upstream is working on lots of speed optimizations. 3.11 has a bunch of 
these that our users would appreciate.

3.11 as an extra supported version might work out, but it will create 
subtle breakage for packages that happen not to be compatible with that 
version, so we should avoid that in a stable release.

3.11 cannot be easily tested via an archive rebuild since there are 
about 25 stages to a transition which build on top of one another.

Doko asked if it would be possible to have the Python releases 1 month 
earlier, to which people replied: "Why doesn't Debian change their 
release dates?". :(

== PEP 668 ==

https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-668-marking-python-base-environments-as-externally-managed/ 
https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/

We would like to have an directory reserved for distro-managed packages, 
where pip should not be installing anything.

upstream pip seems to be keen on that, although there are currently no 
issues in their bug report about it.

it would also be nice to have a python option to only use distro-managed 
packages on the load path.

== pybuild improvements ==

getting the autopkgtest MR in would be great

https://salsa.debian.org/python-team/tools/dh-python/-/merge_requests/27

We need people to test this MR some more, although it seems fairly mature.

It might be a good idea to have a line in d/control to let us migrate 
from the existing autopkgtests running unit tests to the new automated MR.

== lintian tags requests for the team ==

pollo will write you Python-related lintian tags. Ask him to.

* find packages that are building extensions only for the current Python 
default version, instead of all the available python versions.

* warn packages still using distutils.version (removal in python 3.12)

It would be nice if lintian brush could help us migrate to pybuild-pyproject
   - pollo can ping Jelmer.

== upstream cpython patches ==

Some work has been done, but some Debian patches still need to be 
forwarded to python upstream

== where are we with python2rm? ==

pypy is still a blocker. A solution would be to bundle the python2 
source code in it.

Other blockers 
(https://release.debian.org/transitions/html/python2-rm.html):

python-defaults
python2.7
pam-python
python-stdlib-extensions
redland-bindings #938345 orphaned, key package
mozilla-devscripts (used for firefox extension building) #937085 key package
python-setuptools
python2-pip
six

== possible remote sprint? ==

a good time to have a remote sprint would be after adding python3.11 as 
the new default (and thus creating new RC bugs). Therefore, this would 
be between end of October up to early December.

== tracker.d.o dashboard ==

https://tracker.debian.org/teams/python-modules/

Would be great to have Salsa MRs on it

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

-- 
   ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
   ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Louis-Philippe Véronneau
   ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   pollo@debian.org / veronneau.org
   ⠈⠳⣄

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Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2022-07-23 20:00 +0200
  Re: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-07-25 09:40 +0200
    Re: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-07-27 10:00 +0200
      Re: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2022-07-27 16:20 +0200
  pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-07-25 10:10 +0200
    Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2022-07-26 17:00 +0200
      Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-07-26 17:50 +0200
        Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2022-07-26 23:00 +0200
          Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-07-27 02:20 +0200
            Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2022-07-27 05:50 +0200
      Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-07-27 10:20 +0200
        Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2022-07-27 16:30 +0200
          Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-07-27 20:50 +0200
            Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-07-27 22:40 +0200
              Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Julian Gilbey <julian@d-and-j.net> - 2022-07-28 20:50 +0200
              Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2022-08-18 02:00 +0200
        Re: pybuild-autopkgtest (was: Notes from the DC22 Python Team BoF) Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2022-07-27 18:50 +0200

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