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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

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  Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 21:40 +0100
    Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-03-17 11:10 +0100
      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 06:30 +0100
        Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 14:50 +0100
          Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 16:20 +0100
            Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Thom Castermans <thom.castermans@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 17:20 +0100
              Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-03-20 19:40 +0100
        Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-03-25 19:10 +0100
          Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-03-30 18:00 +0200
            Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 19:30 +0200
            Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation inkbottle <inkbottle007@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 01:50 +0200
              Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-03-31 12:40 +0200
                Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Maximiliano Curia <maxy@debian.org> - 2017-03-31 13:40 +0200
                  Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Diederik de Haas <didi.debian@cknow.org> - 2017-03-31 17:40 +0200
                    Bug#840844: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Maximiliano Curia <maxy@gnuservers.com.ar> - 2017-03-31 18:50 +0200
                      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Diederik de Haas <didi.debian@cknow.org> - 2017-03-31 19:10 +0200
                  Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation inkbottle <inkbottle007@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 18:20 +0200
                  Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-04-01 12:40 +0200
                    Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Shawn Sörbom <shawn@sorbom.com> - 2017-04-02 09:20 +0200
                      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-04-02 14:40 +0200
                      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-04-05 08:50 +0200
                      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-04-05 08:50 +0200
                      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-04-05 08:50 +0200
                        Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation inkbottle <inkbottle007@gmail.com> - 2017-04-05 13:30 +0200
                        Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-04-05 15:30 +0200
                          Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Shawn Sörbom <shawn@sorbom.com> - 2017-04-05 20:50 +0200
                            Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-04-06 00:20 +0200
                              Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation inkbottle <inkbottle007@gmail.com> - 2017-04-06 01:30 +0200
                      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Nick <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-04-16 00:20 +0200
                        Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Shawn Sörbom <shawn@sorbom.com> - 2017-04-18 22:50 +0200
                          Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Nick <nick@steelyglint.org> - 2017-04-23 17:00 +0200
                            Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Shawn Sörbom <shawn@sorbom.com> - 2017-04-23 20:00 +0200
          Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-04-22 13:30 +0200
            Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Luigi Toscano <luigi.toscano@tiscali.it> - 2017-04-22 14:00 +0200
              Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-04-22 16:40 +0200
                Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-05-07 18:50 +0200
                  Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-05-14 11:20 +0200
                    Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation fradev <fradevpub@inventati.org> - 2017-05-14 12:40 +0200
                      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Sandro Knauß <bugs@sandroknauss.de> - 2017-05-15 22:30 +0200
            Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Shawn Sörbom <shawn@sorbom.com> - 2017-05-18 19:50 +0200
              Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 02:50 +0200
    Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation inkbottle <inkbottle007@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 16:00 +0100
      Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation Luigi Toscano <luigi.toscano@tiscali.it> - 2017-03-17 18:00 +0100

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#8541 — Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

On 03/15/2017 11:20 AM, fradev wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> The default KDE/Plasma 5 installation in Stretch, via task-kde-desktop, in my
> opinion doesn't provide the best user experience because of the many
> applications installed by default.
>
> While the experience with the Plasma desktop is pretty good, the same
> cannot be said for some KDE applications. To improve the situation, at
> least for me, in different occasions I had to:
>
> - manually install only the required KDE applications in a minimal Debian
> setup;
> - or manually remove all the unwanted KDE applications in the default KDE
> installation (and break meta-packages).
>
> The main issue is that, in some cases, the applications required recursively
> by the package task-kde-desktop are obsolete, bugged and/or are useless
> redundancies. I'll make some examples at the end of this e-mail to better
> explain my point of view.
>
> I don't know if there are other users considering this as a usability issue
> but, in case, and if it is still possible to do something given the freeze of
> Stretch, it could be solved by changing the applications listed as
> dependencies and recommended by the meta-packages used in the default KDE
> installation in Stretch.
>
> I'm working just for myself on a list of packages that can be omitted or
> substituted and if someone is interested I can continue in this discussion.
>
> Regards
> Francesco
>
>
> EXAMPLES
> ========
>
> Let's start with Konqueror, installed by default in the case discussed above.
> Despite its history and how interesting it is, we all know that Konqueror
> nowadays lacks developer manpower. Its web engines are obsolete and probably
> not suitable anymore for a safe web surfing. Surely many of us will not suggest
> its usage, especially to newcomers. Firefox and Chromium are far superior web
> browsers and, besides, Firefox is recommended by task-kde-desktop and it is
> installed in the default KDE installation.
>
> Konqueror can also be used as a file manager but we already have Dolphin, that
> I'm sure is considered the de facto file manager in the Plasma desktop,
> installed along with it. Konqueror therefore is pretty much useless and
> redundant in a standard installation. If it so, why install it by default?
>
> Same story with some of the KDEPIM applications installed by
> task-kde-desktop/kde-standard. I'm a Kmail user but like many others I know
> that Kmail can be a difficult beast to handle, it has its bugs, akonadi could be
> a pain sometimes, and it lacks developer manpower too (and maybe it will be
> replaced by Kube in the future).
>
> Despite I'm using Kmail I will probably suggest to other users and newcomers
> to try Icedove/Thunderbird instead, or simply use their e-mail accounts via
> web browser if it is too much for them. In my opinion Kmail and friends should
> not be installed by default.
>
> There are other cases like that or minor redundancies, such as Kate and Kwrite
> installed altogether. Why install them both?

I agree that konqueror is not needee as a web browser but it's great as 
a file manager and I think that dolphin is trying to do to much and is 
not neeed, konq was here first and is the KDE mascot on top of that.

As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a 
"debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working 
including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim 
to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working 
the way it should be.  Take a look at "neon-plasma-desktop meta package" 
and you will see what I'm talking about.  And I was just thinking about 
this yesterday.
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

KDE Neon - Plasma 5.9.3 - EXT4 at sda7
Registered Linux User #380263

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#8544

On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
> the way it should be. 

That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it 
possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a bug 
report?

Francesco

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#8548

On 03/17/2017 02:44 AM, fradev wrote:
> On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
>> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
>> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
>> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
>> the way it should be.
>
> That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
> possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a bug
> report?
>
> Francesco

Hello, Francesco, I was thinking as Users we could discuss the options 
here first and then make a proposal of the "debian-plasma-desktop" to 
the KDE team.

Utilities= ark, kcalc, kwrite, spectacle.

System= bleachbit, kinfo, partition-manager or gparted, konsole, 
kwalletmanager, synaptic, dolphin.  Personally I prefer konqueror and 
kdf over dolphin, maybe just because I've been using konq and kdf, it 
seems like forever.

Settings= systemsettings

Office= okular

Multimedia= vlc, k3b

Internet= firefox, kget

Graphics= gwenview

Things like sddm, plasma-networkmanager, kdeconnect, bluetooth and 
wireless should just work.
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Sid/Testing - Plasma 5.8.6 - EXT4 at sda15
Registered Linux User #380263

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#8550

On Monday, March 20, 2017 01:26:28 AM Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> On 03/17/2017 02:44 AM, fradev wrote:
> > On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> >> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
> >> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
> >> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
> >> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
> >> the way it should be.
> > 
> > That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
> > possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a
> > bug report?

> Office= okular

Hmm, somehow I don't think okular fulfills all the needs of office, in my mind 
being at least: word processor, spreadsheet, (simple) database, slide maker 
(ala powerpoint).  So, I suggest, if you're going to mention / include Firefox 
(which you did) that you should also include Libre Office (or the other version 
of Libre Office--don't remember the name--does that still exist?)

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#8553

On 03/20/2017 06:41 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 20, 2017 01:26:28 AM Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> On 03/17/2017 02:44 AM, fradev wrote:
>>> On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>>>> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
>>>> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
>>>> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
>>>> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
>>>> the way it should be.
>>>
>>> That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
>>> possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a
>>> bug report?
>
>> Office= okular
>
> Hmm, somehow I don't think okular fulfills all the needs of office, in my mind
> being at least: word processor, spreadsheet, (simple) database, slide maker
> (ala powerpoint).  So, I suggest, if you're going to mention / include Firefox
> (which you did) that you should also include Libre Office (or the other version
> of Libre Office--don't remember the name--does that still exist?)

Well for one thing, someone wanting *office will be able to click 
install office, if you want it in you may as well put a typing tutor in 
there too.  But kpat, frozen-bubble or texas-holdem would get more use 
from the average user.  If we think positive some educational programs 
could be added, maybe somethings from child's play or a beginners coding 
app, it getting to some family member who has the yearn to be creative 
and productive would be a blessing. Maybe you don't know it, but the 
average user does not know how to use a keyboard, like putting your 
index fingers on the f and j keys, basic typing.
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Stretch - Plasma 5.8.4 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263

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#8562

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

2017-03-20 16:11 GMT+01:00 Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com>:

> Maybe you don't know it, but the average user does not know how to use a
> keyboard, like putting your index fingers on the f and j keys, basic typing.
>

I think that you are grossly underestimating the average computer user *who
is installing KDE on Debian Linux on their computer*.

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#8563

On 20/03/17 17:02:55 CET, Thom Castermans wrote:
> 2017-03-20 16:11 GMT+01:00 Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com>:
> > Maybe you don't know it, but the average user does not know how to use a
> > keyboard, like putting your index fingers on the f and j keys, basic
> > typing.
> I think that you are grossly underestimating the average computer user *who
> is installing KDE on Debian Linux on their computer*.

Regardless of users' expertise, the default KDE (and Gnome, XFCE, whatever) 
installation should be targeted to the general public. Therefore, a setup not 
for power users nor for completely inexperienced users (I don't think they are 
the majority in the GNU/Linux realm), where basic components are provided by 
default and more advanced features and applications are installable on 
request.

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#8567

On 19/03/17 22:26:28 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> Hello, Francesco, I was thinking as Users we could discuss the options
> here first and then make a proposal of the "debian-plasma-desktop" to
> the KDE team.
> 
> Utilities= ark, kcalc, kwrite, spectacle.
> 
> System= bleachbit, kinfo, partition-manager or gparted, konsole,
> kwalletmanager, synaptic, dolphin.  Personally I prefer konqueror and
> kdf over dolphin, maybe just because I've been using konq and kdf, it
> seems like forever.
> 
> Settings= systemsettings
> 
> Office= okular
> 
> Multimedia= vlc, k3b
> 
> Internet= firefox, kget
> 
> Graphics= gwenview
> 
> Things like sddm, plasma-networkmanager, kdeconnect, bluetooth and
> wireless should just work.

Thanks for your suggestions Jimmy. However I'd like to start from the top by 
discussing the dependencies required by the *task-kde-desktop* package and 
then the other meta-packages.

Here are the dependencies of task-kde-desktop, on the right my suggestions.

task-kde-desktop
  Depends: tasksel
  Depends: task-desktop
  Depends: kde-standard
  Depends: sddm
  Recommends: kdeaccessibility        --> change to: Suggests
  Recommends: gnome-orca              --> change to: Suggests
  Recommends: k3b                     --> change to: Suggests
  Recommends: k3b-i18n                --> change to: Suggests
  Recommends: plasma-nm
  Recommends: kdesudo
  Recommends: libreoffice-kde
  Recommends: apper                   --> substitute with: synaptic
  Recommends: gimp
  Recommends: firefox-esr
  Recommends: libreoffice
  Recommends: libreoffice-help-en-us
  Recommends: mythes-en-us
  Recommends: hunspell-en-us
  Recommends: hyphen-en-us
  Recommends: system-config-printer
  Recommends: dragonplayer            --> substitute with: vlc

# kdeaccessibility and gnome-orca
Accessibility tools not essential in a basic installation, they are needed 
only in particular cases. These packages should be marked at most as 
"suggested" or removed from the dependency list. IMHO the installation of 
accessibility tools should be triggered differently and already via the 
debian-installer and not listed here.

# k3b
CD and DVD are not completely abandoned but is a fact that by now they are 
superseded by flash drives and other portable storage devices. This package 
should be marked as suggested.

# apper
It should be dead upstream (it is written in the changelog!) and the 
alternative is plasma-discover that is really bugged. The only sane 
alternative is synaptic. IMHO package management should be entrusted to a 
distro specific tool. However it remains the issue of updates notifications. 
They didn't work, at least for me, nor with apper nor with discover. But with 
synaptic only? Maybe we should try pk-update-icon (but it has Gnome 
dependencies).

# dragonplayer
It is a really simple player but other applications provide a better user 
experience. I prefer smplayer and mpv but I recognize that vlc is a better 
choice for the general public and it integrates well with the Plasma Desktop.

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#8569

If someone is still interested in the topic, here it is the list of 
dependencies required by the meta-package *kde-standard* (a dependency of 
*task-kde-desktop*) with my suggestions on the right.

kde-standard
  Depends: akregator                    --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: ark
  Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
  Depends: gwenview
  Depends: juk                          --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kaddressbook                 --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kate                         --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kcalc
  Depends: kde-plasma-desktop
  Depends: khelpcenter
  Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: knotes                       --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kopete                       --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: korganizer                   --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kde-spectacle
  Depends: kwalletmanager
  Depends: okular
  Depends: plasma-dataengines-addons
  Depends: plasma-pa
  Depends: plasma-runners-addons
  Depends: plasma-wallpapers-addons
  Depends: plasma-widgets-addons
  Depends: polkit-kde-agent-1
  Depends: sweeper                      --> change to: Suggests
  Breaks: <kde-minimal>
  Recommends: konq-plugins              --> REMOVE
  Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
  Suggests: <kde-l10n>
  Suggests: skanlite


Comments and suggestions are welcome. I'm planning to submit a bug report (as 
a wishlist item) in the next days to see if the issue can be discussed with 
the maintainers and if something can be done in time for the release of 
Stretch.

Francesco

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#8570

On 03/30/2017 08:37 AM, fradev wrote:
> If someone is still interested in the topic, here it is the list of
> dependencies required by the meta-package *kde-standard* (a dependency of
> *task-kde-desktop*) with my suggestions on the right.
>
> kde-standard
>   Depends: akregator                    --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: ark
>   Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
>   Depends: gwenview
>   Depends: juk                          --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kaddressbook                 --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kate                         --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kcalc
>   Depends: kde-plasma-desktop
>   Depends: khelpcenter
>   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: knotes                       --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kopete                       --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: korganizer                   --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kde-spectacle
>   Depends: kwalletmanager
>   Depends: okular
>   Depends: plasma-dataengines-addons
>   Depends: plasma-pa
>   Depends: plasma-runners-addons
>   Depends: plasma-wallpapers-addons
>   Depends: plasma-widgets-addons
>   Depends: polkit-kde-agent-1
>   Depends: sweeper                      --> change to: Suggests
>   Breaks: <kde-minimal>
>   Recommends: konq-plugins              --> REMOVE
>   Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
>   Suggests: <kde-l10n>
>   Suggests: skanlite

> Comments and suggestions are welcome. I'm planning to submit a bug report (as
> a wishlist item) in the next days to see if the issue can be discussed with
> the maintainers and if something can be done in time for the release of
> Stretch.
>
> Francesco

Hi,

kde-standard installs more than 130 packages that I do not have on any 
of my more than 30 installed kde-plasma-desktop's, it's something I will 
not install for anybody, kmail along makes no sense, to me it should be 
a stand-along application including it's wizards without pulling in 
everything PIM.  So to me it's not a usable mail client unless someone 
wants all of PIM.  Another thing, on installing kmail it will ask where 
you want your folders. WHY?  Why don't it have defaults and then if the 
user wants to move the stuff let them.  To me KDE PIM is a big mess and 
always has been, but I never was an evolution user either.

I won't use dolphin unless I'm forced to use it and konq-plugins is a 
needed package for konqueror.

No auto-updating for me and sweeper over bleachbit is a haha.

I'm no longer a business person, I just make text notes and copy to text 
a new recipe once in a while. I haven't needed office in a longtime, but 
when office is needed I think open software can't be beat, but is it 
needed on every computer? It's fine for kde-standard.

When I started this, I wanted a small list of packages that will work 
when installed, kde-connect, bluetooth, wireless.  I go to linux 
conference and deb.org person after deb.org person can not configure 
wireless and these things just need to work.

KDE does somethings I think are totally WTF, like making oxygen-cursor 
mandatory, no matter how many different colors it has, it still has 
balls. I guess every version has to have a WTF or it would not be KDE.

I hope you're having a great day!

regards,
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Stretch - Plasma 5.8.6 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263

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#8571

The bells, the whistles... but at the end of the maypole dance, everyone get 
naked.
So let's start with (in) the most simple apparel and add (non mandatory) veils 
on demand, instead of the contrary.
And try and help the user to fathom what's necessary from what is convenient 
and what is fashionable but somehow superfluous however.

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:37:25 PM CEST fradev wrote:
> If someone is still interested in the topic, here it is the list of
> dependencies required by the meta-package *kde-standard* (a dependency of
> *task-kde-desktop*) with my suggestions on the right.
> 
> kde-standard
>   Depends: akregator                    --> change to: Suggests
I never use it
>   Depends: ark
I never use it
>   Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
I use mpv, my dragonplayer is set to dummy, actually it's phonon:
I use phonon-backend-null
Did you know that with plasma-pa you can even choose to have bluetooth audio 
streaming with mpv?
[or so it would be if that weren't for this bug:
<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58746>]
Anyway, "depend" is too high a constraint for a video player.
>   Depends: gwenview
Never use it: I use "feh" (ok, it doesn't uses orientation indications, but 
it's nice)
>   Depends: juk                          --> change to: Suggests
Never use it
>   Depends: kaddressbook                 --> change to: Suggests
Seems nice, never succeeded to make it work; why does it ask me where to
put the data, when I don't even know what it does
>   Depends: kate                         --> change to: Suggests
I use emacs and vim; (whenever they are not to busy making war)
>   Depends: kcalc
Come on! I've got fingers for that (and even a brain sometimes). And Google, 
via Firefox can do it too.
>   Depends: kde-plasma-desktop
>   Depends: khelpcenter
There is no useful integrated help (to my mind ;-) ); When I want help about 
something: the internet is my friend, and if it's not enough, I come here.
So "suggest" at most.
>   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
It has its glitches... But I use it
Don't forget to "akonadictl restart" every now and then; And if you don't have 
mail don't jump to conclusion in thinking nobody write to you anymore.
Plus plenty of other issues.
>   Depends: knotes                       --> change to: Suggests
Agree
>   Depends: kopete                       --> change to: Suggests
Agree
>   Depends: korganizer                   --> change to: Suggests
Agree
>   Depends: kde-spectacle
I use "scrot" + "xbindkeys" + "feh" which presents the result automatically;
very efficient
"Depend" is too high: it's not "necessary" in anyway.
>   Depends: kwalletmanager
To my mind it is the best way to loose your data:
it is the epitome of transparency.
I never voluntarily use it; disable it whenever I can.
I use: Keepassx => So I know *what* I've stored, and *where* it is.
Also I've noticed that my WPA password is stored in clear there:
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/
This happened automatically during unofficial (viz. with firmware) netinst.
I wouldn't recommend kwalletmanager to anybody.
Put: export CHROMIUM_FLAGS="$CHROMIUM_FLAGS --password-store=basic"
in your ~/.profile to prevent Chromium from nagging you with Kwallet every 
minute.
>   Depends: okular
Even though I'm a fan, depend is a bit too much to my mind.
I would recommend "recommend" here
>   Depends: plasma-dataengines-addons
I'm agnostic about that
>   Depends: plasma-pa
That, I agree with
>   Depends: plasma-runners-addons
>   Depends: plasma-wallpapers-addons
>   Depends: plasma-widgets-addons
>   Depends: polkit-kde-agent-1
>   Depends: sweeper                      --> change to: Suggests
>   Breaks: <kde-minimal>
>   Recommends: konq-plugins              --> REMOVE
>   Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
I don't use it + it must use kwallet; so recommend is enough to my mind
>   Suggests: <kde-l10n>
>   Suggests: skanlite

Then "kde-plasma-desktop"
Depends: kde-baseapps
Which in turn

dep: dolphin
Well integrated (to my mind)
dep: kde-baseapps-bin
??
dep: kdepasswd 
Recommend or suggest
dep: kfind 
?? (is it needed for Baloo?)
dep: konqueror
Recommend or suggest
Note: task-kde-desktop recommends Firefox
So we do already have a web browser.
Actually, it should recommend "www-browser" instead of Konqueror, firefox, or 
Chromium...
dep: konsole
I use it, but one might like some other terminal emulator
dep: kwrite
Recommend or suggest
Not Depend, I never ever use it
rec: konqueror-nsplugins


Another thing:
When one does an install with "task-kde-desktop"
one should have a working UI, plus Internet (browser), so that one can fix 
what is not already working...

Not every bells and whistles (+ kitchen sink)

Because as it is now, it takes 2 hours to make the install...
and 2 weeks to find out every unnecessary possible things and to put them 
away.


All that is mostly a POV thing, so to be taken with the necessary grain of 
salt.

Cheers,
Chris

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#8572

On 30/03/17 10:22:20 CEST, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> I won't use dolphin unless I'm forced to use it and konq-plugins is a
> needed package for konqueror.

But if we focus on a setup suitable for the general public, I think dolphin is 
good as file manager and well integrated. Instead konqueror (and therefore 
konq-plugins), as stated in previous messages, is obsolete and not well 
maintained upstream and thus it should at most be suggested but not 
recommended.


On 31/03/17 01:41:41 CEST, inkbottle  wrote:
> So let's start with (in) the most simple apparel and add (non mandatory)
> veils on demand, instead of the contrary.
> And try and help the user to fathom what's necessary from what is convenient
> and what is fashionable but somehow superfluous however.

That's a perfect statement.

> >   Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
> 
> I use mpv, my dragonplayer is set to dummy [...]
> Anyway, "depend" is too high a constraint for a video player.

Mpv is really popular and I use it too but, still, VLC is possibly the 
preferred choice by the general public, it provides a good user experience 
also for non-techies and it integrates well in the Plasma desktop. 
Furthermore, I would not change the type of dependency in order to assure that 
in a basic setup users have a mean to play videos and music.

> >   Depends: kcalc
> 
> Come on! I've got fingers for that (and even a brain sometimes). And Google,
> via Firefox can do it too.

Hum, however kcalc has advanced features that can be used by students and 
technicians. And, of course, it can be used without an internet connection (:

> >   Depends: khelpcenter
> 
> There is no useful integrated help (to my mind ;-) ); When I want help about
> something: the internet is my friend, and if it's not enough, I come here.
> So "suggest" at most.

Same here but still I think it can be useful somehow. IMHO documentation and 
dedicated help applications must be included in a basic setup to cover any 
possible use case.

> >   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
> 
> It has its glitches... But I use it

I use it too and I propose to suggest it, and not recommend it, exactly 
because it has it glitches and many people probably prefer other clients or 
just e-mail web interfaces even when using the Plasma desktop.

> >   Depends: kde-spectacle
> "Depend" is too high: it's not "necessary" in anyway.

I agree, maybe "suggests"?

> >   Depends: kwalletmanager
> 
> I never voluntarily use it; disable it whenever I can. [...]
> Also I've noticed that my WPA password is stored in clear there:
> /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/
> This happened automatically during unofficial (viz. with firmware) netinst.
> I wouldn't recommend kwalletmanager to anybody.

I didn't know that, is there a bug report for it? I have to say that I use it 
just for a couple of things and it proves to be useful some time. But for 
serious things I always suggest pass or keepassx. Nevertheless I have no idea 
if the Plasma desktop can work without it.

> >   Depends: okular
> 
> Even though I'm a fan, depend is a bit too much to my mind.
> I would recommend "recommend" here

Like for the video player, I think users should have a mean to read their 
documents in a basic setup.

> >   Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
> 
> I don't use it + it must use kwallet; so recommend is enough to my mind

I'm reconsidering this and I agree that "recommends" maybe is enough.

 
> Then "kde-plasma-desktop"
> Depends: kde-baseapps
> Which in turn [...]

I'll reply in a next mail. Meanwhile I would like to gather the comments and 
firstly draft a bug report for the packages task-kde-desktop and kde-standard 
and then proceed in order.

Thank you!

Francesco

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#8573

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¡Hola fradev!

El 2017-03-31 a las 12:19 +0200, fradev escribió:
> On 30/03/17 10:22:20 CEST, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> I won't use dolphin unless I'm forced to use it and konq-plugins is a 
>> needed package for konqueror.

> But if we focus on a setup suitable for the general public, I think dolphin is 
> good as file manager and well integrated. Instead konqueror (and therefore 
> konq-plugins), as stated in previous messages, is obsolete and not well 
> maintained upstream and thus it should at most be suggested but not 
> recommended.

>>>   Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
>> I use mpv, my dragonplayer is set to dummy [...]
>> Anyway, "depend" is too high a constraint for a video player.
> Mpv is really popular and I use it too but, still, VLC is possibly the 
> preferred choice by the general public, it provides a good user experience 
> also for non-techies and it integrates well in the Plasma desktop. 
> Furthermore, I would not change the type of dependency in order to assure that 
> in a basic setup users have a mean to play videos and music.

Mmh, I'm not sure about this. Surely dragonplayer is underused, and vlc and/or 
mplayer/mpv are way more popular, but dradonplayer is well integrated with the 
desktop.

>>>   Depends: kcalc
>> Come on! I've got fingers for that (and even a brain sometimes). And Google, 
>> via Firefox can do it too.
> Hum, however kcalc has advanced features that can be used by students and 
> technicians. And, of course, it can be used without an internet connection (:

Please, avoid the bikesheding, kcalc is a rather small app, and an useful tool 
to have.

>>>   Depends: khelpcenter
>> There is no useful integrated help (to my mind ;-) ); When I want help about 
>> something: the internet is my friend, and if it's not enough, I come here. 
>> So "suggest" at most.
> Same here but still I think it can be useful somehow. IMHO documentation and 
> dedicated help applications must be included in a basic setup to cover any 
> possible use case.

The basic documentation of the applications needs to be installed in the the 
standard installation. khelpcenter needs to be present after installing the 
kde tasksel option.

>>>   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
>> It has its glitches... But I use it
> I use it too and I propose to suggest it, and not recommend it, exactly 
> because it has it glitches and many people probably prefer other clients or 
> just e-mail web interfaces even when using the Plasma desktop.

I think that kde-standard needs to provide kmail, even if kmail is 
"glitchy", btw, it works way better than the one in jessie. The same goes for 
korganizer. kaddressbook and knotes are required for a sane kmail and 
korganizer installation respectively.

I have no opinion on akregator.

>>>   Depends: kde-spectacle 
>> "Depend" is too high: it's not "necessary" in anyway.
> I agree, maybe "suggests"?

kde-spectacle is the default snapshot tool, and small enough to even consider 
a change. Please, avoid this kind of suggestions, they invalidate the rest of 
the proposal.

>>>   Depends: kwalletmanager
>> I never voluntarily use it; disable it whenever I can. [...]
>> Also I've noticed that my WPA password is stored in clear there:
>> /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/ 
>> This happened automatically during unofficial (viz. with firmware) netinst. 
>> I wouldn't recommend kwalletmanager to anybody.
> I didn't know that, is there a bug report for it? I have to say that I use it 
> just for a couple of things and it proves to be useful some time. But for 
> serious things I always suggest pass or keepassx. Nevertheless I have no idea 
> if the Plasma desktop can work without it.

kwalletmanager is the configuration tool, libkf5wallet-bin is the package that 
provides the kwallet, and half the desktop depends on it, so it can't be 
easily removed. By removing kwalletmanager you end up with no way to "manage" 
your running kwallet.

>>>   Depends: okular
>> Even though I'm a fan, depend is a bit too much to my mind. 
>> I would recommend "recommend" here
> Like for the video player, I think users should have a mean to read their 
> documents in a basic setup.

Currently I'm recommending qpdfview, but this might change once okular is 
migrated to kf5.

>>>   Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
>> I don't use it + it must use kwallet; so recommend is enough to my mind
> I'm reconsidering this and I agree that "recommends" maybe is enough.

This is a recommends so the ones that prefer a different network management 
tool, like wicd, can use it without removing kde-standard.

>> Then "kde-plasma-desktop" 
>> Depends: kde-baseapps 
>> Which in turn [...]
>
> I'll reply in a next mail. Meanwhile I would like to gather the comments and 
> firstly draft a bug report for the packages task-kde-desktop and kde-standard 
> and then proceed in order.

Many of the maintainers, including myself, also read this list, so if you 
prepare a diff of the changes with a rationale for each change we'll consider 
them. But please take into account that statements like "I don't use it" are no 
reason enough to drop a dependency as the specific tool surely provides a 
functionality to the desktop user.

Happy hacking,
-- 
"The best way to predict the future is to invent it."
-- Alan Kay
 Saludos /\/\ /\ >< `/

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#8574

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On vrijdag 31 maart 2017 13:27:14 CEST Maximiliano Curia wrote:
> if you prepare a diff of the changes with a rationale for each change we'll
> consider  them. But please take into account that statements like "I don't
> use it" are no reason enough to drop a dependency as the specific tool
> surely provides a functionality to the desktop user.

ping https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=840844 ?
(it's about adding kdeconnect to kde-standard)

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#8576 — Bug#840844: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

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¡Hola Diederik!

El 2017-03-31 a las 17:27 +0200, Diederik de Haas escribió:
> On vrijdag 31 maart 2017 13:27:14 CEST Maximiliano Curia wrote:
>> if you prepare a diff of the changes with a rationale for each change we'll 
>> consider  them. But please take into account that statements like "I don't 
>> use it" are no reason enough to drop a dependency as the specific tool 
>> surely provides a functionality to the desktop user.

> ping https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=840844 ? 
> (it's about adding kdeconnect to kde-standard)

I thought I had replied to that/this request. I also use kdeconnect, but it's 
only useful if the user has smartphone running Android, that it's also running 
kdeconnect. So, we might add a Suggests, but not a dependency.

Happy hacking,
-- 
"Las computadoras son inútiles, solo pueden darte respuestas."
-- Pablo Picasso
 Saludos /\/\ /\ >< `/

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#8577

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Hi Maxy!

On vrijdag 31 maart 2017 18:45:36 CEST Maximiliano Curia wrote:
> > ping https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=840844 ? 
> > (it's about adding kdeconnect to kde-standard)
> 
> I thought I had replied to that/this request. I also use kdeconnect, but
> it's  only useful if the user has smartphone running Android, that it's
> also running kdeconnect. So, we might add a Suggests, but not a dependency.

My main goal for that bug was discoverability of kdeconnect and a Suggest 
would accomplish that. 
I use it all the time and for *me* it's the main gem in the KDE suit, so I 
wouldn't mind a Recommends either ;-P

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#8575

> Many of the maintainers, including myself, also read this list, so if you
> prepare a diff of the changes with a rationale for each change we'll
> consider them. But please take into account that statements like "I don't
> use it" are no reason enough to drop a dependency as the specific tool
> surely provides a functionality to the desktop user.

As to what I did say myself, as I said at the end of the post, it was mostly 
personal feeling, and not rocket science at all. I thought my POV could be of 
some use; nevertheless it remains mere POV. Only reluctantly I posted it for 
that reason. I've tried to put disclaimers (I might have used bigger font). 
This discussion necessarily attract poor quality comments (like mine); 
nevertheless the discussion is not completely unworthy.

However, whenever there is a "depend" dependency, it's difficult to make one's 
way around.

Also, I may not be very good at doing my installs, and so the consequences are 
all my fault: but it often takes me days to remove tons of installed packages 
I have no use for; plus finding out how to do it without breaking the system.

Determining something lean enough to be unobtrusive or manageable for further 
user change/configuration. But integrated enough to be working seamlessly 
right out of the box.

Taking the example of kcalc. It is very small and so completely unobtrusive. 
But supposing in the future its development slows down, and it depends on 
outdated libraries. With a dependency to "depend" I will have to do with it, 
anyway. And it's not as if the puzzle wouldn't make sense without it. So I 
suggested it could have a dependency lower than "depend".

The dependency network of a large system like Debian is no simple affair. 
Improving it is even trickier. I'm very happy with Debian as it is, and I 
couldn't dream of significantly improving it all by myself.

(263 words of idle talk)




> 
> Happy hacking,

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#8578

On 31/03/17 13:27:14 CEST, Maximiliano Curia wrote:
> >>>   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
> >> 
> >> It has its glitches... But I use it
> > 
> > I use it too and I propose to suggest it, and not recommend it, exactly
> > because it has it glitches and many people probably prefer other clients
> > or
> > just e-mail web interfaces even when using the Plasma desktop.
> 
> I think that kde-standard needs to provide kmail, even if kmail is
> "glitchy", btw, it works way better than the one in jessie. The same goes
> for korganizer. kaddressbook and knotes are required for a sane kmail and
> korganizer installation respectively.

I agree that all these packages are useful for kmail and korganizer. However, 
especially when using multiple machines, a browser web can be said to be 
essential but  a complete mail suite is not. I have different computers but 
only one is used for e-mail, from my point of view is not useful to have kmail 
and friends installed by default on all my computers by default because they 
serve different purposes.

And, again, I think that kmail and its complementary applications installed by 
default are too much for the general public. We power users have our needs but 
the majority out there has more simple needs. For a lot of people the web 
interface of their only e-mail account is more than enough, meaning that what 
they need is just a web browser.

Francesco

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#8579

On Saturday, April 1, 2017 12:20:17 PM PDT fradev wrote:
> On 31/03/17 13:27:14 CEST, Maximiliano Curia wrote:
> > >>>   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
> > >> 
> > >> It has its glitches... But I use it
> > > 
> > > I use it too and I propose to suggest it, and not recommend it, exactly
> > > because it has it glitches and many people probably prefer other clients
> > > or
> > > just e-mail web interfaces even when using the Plasma desktop.
> > 
> > I think that kde-standard needs to provide kmail, even if kmail is
> > "glitchy", btw, it works way better than the one in jessie. The same goes
> > for korganizer. kaddressbook and knotes are required for a sane kmail and
> > korganizer installation respectively.
> 
> I agree that all these packages are useful for kmail and korganizer.
> However, especially when using multiple machines, a browser web can be said
> to be essential but  a complete mail suite is not. I have different
> computers but only one is used for e-mail, from my point of view is not
> useful to have kmail and friends installed by default on all my computers
> by default because they serve different purposes.
> 
> And, again, I think that kmail and its complementary applications installed
> by default are too much for the general public. We power users have our
> needs but the majority out there has more simple needs. For a lot of people
> the web interface of their only e-mail account is more than enough, meaning
> that what they need is just a web browser.
> 
> Francesco

But for a good "out of the box" experience, many people expect a mail client. 
Look at Kubuntu. Personally kmail would be of the first packages I would 
install on any KDE system that I would set up for an "average" user. A default 
email solution is something any distro should have. For a KDE specific 
solution, I don't think there is much else out there. If this were to come to 
a vote I would say leave it in.

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#8580

On Sunday, April 02, 2017 03:11:40 AM Shawn Sörbom wrote:
> But for a good "out of the box" experience, many people expect a mail
> client. Look at Kubuntu. Personally kmail would be of the first packages I
> would install on any KDE system that I would set up for an "average" user.
> A default email solution is something any distro should have. For a KDE
> specific solution, I don't think there is much else out there. If this
> were to come to a vote I would say leave it in.

+1

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