Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.kernel > #90363

Re: Architecture baseline for Forky

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

Show all headers | View raw

I note that I've mostly noped out of this discussion because 
https://mstdn.jp/@landley/115504860540842713 and 
https://mastodon.sdf.org/@washbear/115646255465589454 but as long as I'm 
catching up on back email anyway...

On 11/12/25 12:27, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> We are already providing a non-PIE version of the Python interpreter for
> users who need it for performance reasons, and it is for example
> possible that the benefits of providing packages without hardening (for
> situations where hardening is not necessary) might bring larger benefits
> than architecture-optimized versions.

Long ago when I was doing https://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html 
(work which eventually allowed Alpine to be based on busybox), I benched 
that statically linking busybox let the autoconf stage of package builds 
complete about 20% faster under qemu.

(My theory was lazy binding patched out the PLT indirection on the first 
call which dirtied the executable page and forced QEMU to discard the 
native code cache and retranslate it, often multiple times as multiple 
indirections were dynamically patched. I later found it hilarious that 
the dynamic linking people went on to do snap and flatpak and so on, 
using FAR more space for no obvious gain...)

Does that mean static linking is faster everywhere? Dunno, I haven't 
tried "everywhere". You can't "optimize" without saying what you're 
optimizing FOR, and the ground changes out from under you.

Loop unrolling was an optimization, then became a pessimization when cpu 
caches showed up, then an optimization again when L2 caches showed up, 
and the pendulum went back and forth multiple times before I stopped 
trying to even track it sometime around when branch prediction turned 
into a security hole and people started doing TLB invalidation 
mitigations for it. My takeaway lesson was outside of tight inner loops, 
do the simple thing and let the hardware and optimizers take care of 
themselves.

I do know I left the Red Hat world for the Debian world when the new 
Fedora CD wouldn't install on the Pentium Pro I had at the time (because 
they'd "moved on" to an architecture newer than the hardware I was still 
using).

I had to learn what x86-64-v1 vs v2 were when an android NDK update made 
all binaries it produced segfault on my netbook. I cared because I was 
maintaining their command line utilities, and it was nice to be able to 
actually test that environment. But I didn't discard my hardware to 
humor the change, I just ran my test binaries under qemu until that 
netbook died...

There was talk back then (what, 2018?) about teaching repositories to 
know about various architecture flags so it could pull optimized 
packages for your machine, but the discussion petered out because the 
gains were small and the overhead was huge.

 > Would x32 optimized for v3 be the best option for many use cases?

It would prevent the x86-64-v2 laptop I'm typing this on from running 
those binaries, but I've already talked to the netbsd guys and to them 
running on systems people want to use their stuff on is a point of 
pride. Like it used to be on Linux, before everybody got old and tired 
and needed to lighten the load.

Decisions have costs. It's your call to cull your herd and chastise the 
outliers, but it usually means some subset will move on to things that 
are still fun.

It's an interesting move giving ultimatums to people who never got 
forced onto windows and never moved to GPLv3. Not "I am stepping down 
from this and going this way instead", but "xfree86 is now under this 
new license, you will all comply hey where are you going"...

*shrug* You do you.

Rob

Back to linux.debian.kernel | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Architecture baseline for Forky Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-10-26 13:40 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-10-26 14:20 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 08:40 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Tony Rodriguez <unixpro1970@gmail.com> - 2025-10-26 19:40 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-10-26 20:30 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 12:50 +0100
      Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Martin <debacle@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 18:10 +0100
      Re: Architecture baseline for Forky "Arnd Bergmann" <arnd@arndb.de> - 2025-10-27 22:40 +0100
        Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-10-29 09:00 +0100
          Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Peter Green <plugwash@debian.org> - 2025-10-30 07:00 +0100
            Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Peter Green <plugwash@debian.org> - 2025-10-30 10:10 +0100
              Re: Architecture baseline for Forky "Arnd Bergmann" <arnd@arndb.de> - 2025-10-30 10:10 +0100
          Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-10-30 15:30 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Rob Landley <rob@landley.net> - 2025-10-27 21:40 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 11:20 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 19:30 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky "Nikos Tsipinakis" <nikos@tsipinakis.com> - 2025-10-30 14:40 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Milan Kupcevic <milan@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 22:40 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 23:40 +0100
      Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Marc Haber <mh+debian-release@zugschlus.de> - 2025-10-28 10:10 +0100
    Planned obsolescence ? (was: Re: Architecture baseline for Forky) Romain Dolbeau <romain@dolbeau.org> - 2025-10-28 10:00 +0100
      Re: Planned obsolescence ? (OpenBSD) Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 23:30 +0100
      Re: Planned obsolescence ? (*BSD, Rust) David Starner <prosfilaes@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 00:20 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Rob Landley <rob@landley.net> - 2025-12-05 00:20 +0100
  R: Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Federico Vaga <federico.vaga@vaga.pv.it> - 2026-09-07 09:20 +0200

csiph-web