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Re: Architecture baseline for Forky

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Why not support power 8 beyond 2028? It is still a good system and supports newer little endian. Hopefully, you can reconsider and keep power 8 for as long as power 9/10 regarding baseline support.

> On Oct 26, 2025, at 5:40 AM, Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> We never did a real discussion about architecture baselines before, but I think
> we should do that.  We also don't have any guidelines what we as Debian want to
> actually support.  But given that we are a general purpose distribution, we
> have to find a balance.
> 
> As a general guidance I would like to aim for a ten to 15 years support range
> at release time.  The cutoff in respect to the expected 2027 release date of
> Forky would therefor be 2012 to 2017.  More time is given for widely used
> architectures, less for more specialized ones.
> 
> Bastian
> 
> # Current architecture baseline
> 
> Only three architectures set an explicit baseline in gcc-12 (Bookworm) and
> gcc-15 (Forky):
> * armhf: armv7-a+fp
> * i386: i686
> * s390: z196
> 
> All other architectures use the default values.
> 
> # Proposal for architecture baseline
> 
> ## amd64 (and i386)
> 
> * x86-64-v2: Supported since around 2008[^x86]. Used in RedHat 9[^redhat9x86].
> * x86-64-v3: Supported since around 2013-2015[^x86]. Used in RedHat
>  10[^redhat10].
> 
> I propose to use the x86-64-v2 baseline in Forky.  It gives us more then the 15
> years and everyone else already switched to it or even a newer variant.
> Factoring in a possible LTS for Trixie, this means that x86-64-v1 will stop
> being supported by Debian in 2030.
> 
> ## ppc64el
> 
> * POWER8: Launched in 2014[^power8].
> * POWER9: Launched in 2017[^power9]. Used in RedHat 9[^redhat9] and
>  10[^redhat10].
> 
> I propose to use the POWER9 baseline in Forky.  The Debian infrastructure seems
> to be comprised of all POWER9s.  This means POWER8 will stop being supported in
> 2028.
> 
> ## s390x
> 
> * z14: Launched in 2017[^z14]. Used by RedHat 10[^redhat10].
> * z15: Launched in 2019[^z15]. Used by next Ubuntu.
> 
> I propose to use the z15 baseline in Forky.  Yes, this is less then ten years,
> but s390 is such a niche architecture and all we do is best (often not even
> this) effort support.  The Debian infrastructure is documented to be at least
> z15, all accesible system are actually z16.  This means that z14 and older will
> stop being support in 2028.
> 
> # How to see supported baseline
> 
> The dynamic linker of glibc can show what microarchiture level it considers
> supported on the current CPU.  The "supported" marker is relevant in this case.
> 
> ## amd64
> ```
> % /usr/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 --help | sed -n '/^Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps/,$p'
> Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps directories, in priority order:
>  x86-64-v4
>  x86-64-v3 (supported, searched)
>  x86-64-v2 (supported, searched)
> ```
> 
> ## ppc64el
> ```
> % /usr/lib64/ld64.so.2 --help | sed -n '/^Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps/,$p'          
> Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps directories, in priority order:
>  power10
>  power9 (supported, searched)
> ```
> 
> ## s390x
> ```
> % /usr/lib/ld64.so.1 --help | sed -n '/^Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps/,/^  z15/p'           
> Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps directories, in priority order:
>  z16 (supported, searched)
>  z15 (supported, searched)
> ```
> 
> [^power8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POWER8
> [^power9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POWER9
> [^x86]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Microarchitecture_levels
> [^z14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z14_(microprocessor)
> [^z15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z15_(microprocessor)
> [^redhat9]: https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_linux/9/html/9.0_release_notes/architectures
> [^redhat9x86]: https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2021/01/05/building-red-hat-enterprise-linux-9-for-the-x86-64-v2-microarchitecture-level
> [^redhat10]: https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_linux/10/html/considerations_in_adopting_rhel_10/architectures
> 
> --
> Spock: The odds of surviving another attack are 13562190123 to 1, Captain.
> 

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Thread

Architecture baseline for Forky Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-10-26 13:40 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-10-26 14:20 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 08:40 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Tony Rodriguez <unixpro1970@gmail.com> - 2025-10-26 19:40 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2025-10-26 20:30 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 12:50 +0100
      Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Martin <debacle@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 18:10 +0100
      Re: Architecture baseline for Forky "Arnd Bergmann" <arnd@arndb.de> - 2025-10-27 22:40 +0100
        Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-10-29 09:00 +0100
          Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Peter Green <plugwash@debian.org> - 2025-10-30 07:00 +0100
            Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Peter Green <plugwash@debian.org> - 2025-10-30 10:10 +0100
              Re: Architecture baseline for Forky "Arnd Bergmann" <arnd@arndb.de> - 2025-10-30 10:10 +0100
          Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-10-30 15:30 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Rob Landley <rob@landley.net> - 2025-10-27 21:40 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 11:20 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 19:30 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky "Nikos Tsipinakis" <nikos@tsipinakis.com> - 2025-10-30 14:40 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Milan Kupcevic <milan@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 22:40 +0100
    Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-10-27 23:40 +0100
      Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Marc Haber <mh+debian-release@zugschlus.de> - 2025-10-28 10:10 +0100
    Planned obsolescence ? (was: Re: Architecture baseline for Forky) Romain Dolbeau <romain@dolbeau.org> - 2025-10-28 10:00 +0100
      Re: Planned obsolescence ? (OpenBSD) Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-11-02 23:30 +0100
      Re: Planned obsolescence ? (*BSD, Rust) David Starner <prosfilaes@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 00:20 +0100
  Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Rob Landley <rob@landley.net> - 2025-12-05 00:20 +0100
  R: Re: Architecture baseline for Forky Federico Vaga <federico.vaga@vaga.pv.it> - 2026-09-07 09:20 +0200

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