Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters

From	Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters
Date	2025-03-07 09:00 +0100
Message-ID	<KnAMF-4fhW-9@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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Quoting gregor herrmann (2025-03-07 00:14:19)
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2025 14:53:07 +0100, Giuseppe Sacco wrote:
> 
> >I think that even for emails, the line length should be kept at a reasonable
> >value in order to maximize the readability. Such value is usually lower than
> >80, as shown, for example, in
> >https://baymard.com/blog/line-length-readability . I do have a large screen,
> >but I keep my email/text editors quite narrow in order to allow less than
> >100 characters per line. Of course YMMV.
> 
> Thank you for this link.

For completeness sake, I recommend to take newer research into account,
which a) questions if longer lines generally harms reading due to flaws
in especially one major research project from 2029, and b) points at
printed and digital texts affecting readability differently:
https://designregression.com/article/line-length-revisited-following-the-research

Despite long lines possibly not really *generally* hampering
readability, some of us *are* helped by following the typographic
conventions of 50-70 chars per line, be it due to e.g. dyslexia or
simply years of training our reading skills with print style texts.

Yes, some of us are younger, which quite likely means that reading
skills have been trained to a larger degree on online media than on
printed books, i.e. less commonly following typographic conventions
and therefore potentially more fluent in processing long lines.

Søren proposes to simply not wrap when composing. That helps reading on
narrow width devices, but harms reading on conventional MUAs expecting
less than 80 chars per line, and harms reading on wide width devices for
some of us. Sure we can then tell folks to change MUA and to resize
their windows, but that is not nice to impose of human beings, being
creatures of habit.

I favor the proposal of continuing to follow the convention of wrapping
below 80 chars per line, and ecourage the use of f=f. That helps those
stock in the 90s, either mentally or through their choice of arcane MUA,
but harms those with large width MUAs and skilled reading long lines,
and those reading emails on narrow width devices. But only the
(allegedly large) subset of those users who use MUAs not supporting f=f.

> Following long lines and than backtracking to the next line is 
> tedious for me; and if I have to turn my head right and left I'm much 
> more prone to just delete a mail than to follow through and complete 
> reading the whole text. -- There's a reason why texts in newspapers 
> are typically in columns and not across the whole page.
> I acknowledge that there are people in Debian whose neck and eyes 
> are better than mine, and who have less knowledge about email 
> customs, and who use broken MUAs, and who want me to adjust my 
> terminal size but I'd like to note anyway that I'm not supporting any 
> change in the recommendations for Debian mailing lists, and I'll keep 
> ignoring unreadable emails in the future.

Yes, arguably the issue of non-wrapped text causing too long lines is a
luxury problem that can be addressed by simply changing window size.
But that is asking creatures of habit to change habits, which is a lot.

Interestingly, I see this as a combined social and technical issue, and
since we are hackers, I favor that we try explore the option of hacking
our tools, before giving up and instead impose pressure on the habits of
our peers (because obviously *my* habits are a priority, it must be the
habits of others that need to change, right?).

Let us please continue to respect the ancient rules of email style,
and try explore format=flowed, which might be old too but evidently
not widely known prior to this thread!

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
 * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

Thread

Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 19:30 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-26 19:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2025-02-26 21:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-26 22:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2025-02-27 12:10 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 20:00 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2025-02-26 20:20 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2025-02-26 21:10 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Sowden <azazel@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 00:10 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrewsh@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 09:40 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 10:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 12:40 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 12:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2025-02-27 12:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrew@shadura.me> - 2025-02-27 13:50 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-02-27 14:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:50 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-02-27 15:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrej Shadura" <andrew@shadura.me> - 2025-02-27 16:10 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters thomas@goirand.fr - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-01 11:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 14:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 14:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-02 15:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:50 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Tino Didriksen <tino@didriksen.cc> - 2025-02-27 13:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-02-27 13:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:50 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 14:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aaron Rainbolt <arraybolt3@gmail.com> - 2025-02-27 15:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-02-27 15:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 17:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 23:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Aaron Schrab <aaron@schrab.com> - 2025-02-27 23:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2025-02-28 02:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-02-28 08:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 18:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 19:00 +0100
        BTS not unmangling quoting markers with format=flowed (was: Re:  Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2025-03-18 01:00 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-27 17:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-02-27 18:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 03:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 09:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 17:50 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 18:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-02-28 18:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 19:00 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-01 09:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 11:20 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-02 13:00 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 18:40 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 19:30 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-02 14:20 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-02 19:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andrea Pappacoda <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2025-03-02 18:00 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 18:40 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-03 20:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 21:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 20:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Leandro Cunha <leandrocunha016@gmail.com> - 2025-03-05 20:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80  characters Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 00:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 09:00 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-02-27 22:20 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 09:40 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-02-28 18:00 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 18:40 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 19:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 20:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Roger Lynn <Roger@rilynn.me.uk> - 2025-03-03 23:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-03 21:30 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 21:40 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-03 22:20 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 09:00 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-04 09:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-03 22:30 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 22:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:30 +0100
            Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should  wrap at 80 characters] Jeremy Sowden <azazel@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:50 +0100
              Re: nerd-sniping [was: Change the expectation that emails should  wrap at 80 characters] Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-03-04 11:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-03 23:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-04 08:00 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 13:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-04 21:00 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 01:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-05 01:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 02:30 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-05 17:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-05 18:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-15 11:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 18:30 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-06 07:20 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Henrik Ahlgren <pablo@seestieto.com> - 2025-03-06 08:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 11:10 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-07 16:20 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-06 14:50 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Giuseppe Sacco <eppesuig@debian.org> - 2025-03-06 15:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 00:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-07 09:00 +0100
  Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 00:50 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-03-08 09:00 +0100
    Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 00:30 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 02:00 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2025-03-09 06:50 +0100
        Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 22:20 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2025-03-09 22:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-03-10 10:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-09 22:50 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-03-09 23:00 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 01:40 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-10 11:10 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 11:30 +0100
            please do not use text/markdown Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:20 +0100
              Re: please do not use text/markdown Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-10 12:30 +0100
                Re: please do not use text/markdown Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:20 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-10 14:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:00 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:30 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-10 12:40 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Blair Noctis <ncts@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:20 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
          Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-14 22:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 11:00 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 18:30 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2025-03-15 21:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Christoph Berg <myon@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 21:50 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 15:50 +0100
              Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 15:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters "Andrea Pappacoda" <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2025-03-15 19:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 20:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-15 20:00 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de> - 2025-03-16 15:20 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 18:50 +0100
                Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2025-03-16 20:10 +0100
            Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-15 20:20 +0100
      Re: Change the expectation that emails should wrap at 80 characters Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-09 12:30 +0100

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