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| Date | 2021-07-04 13:30 -0700 |
| References | (11 earlier) <sbrlnm$8ae$1@dont-email.me> <sI-dnV3pkoUWX3z9nZ2dnUU7-bHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <793c3404-e817-4375-94c9-c6e8917e4764n@googlegroups.com> <sbt0h3$ci3$1@dont-email.me> <8q-dncvsqrvtiH_9nZ2dnUU7-VvNnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| Message-ID | <fcaee86b-a8a1-4cc6-b0ee-8b5cd09d00aen@googlegroups.com> (permalink) |
| Subject | Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) |
| From | Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> |
On Sunday, 4 July 2021 at 21:09:27 UTC+1, olcott wrote: > On 7/4/2021 2:00 PM, André G. Isaak wrote: > > On 2021-07-04 12:24, Malcolm McLean wrote: > > > >> The execution trace showed two calls to the "halts" subroutine. > >> However it was stated that "halts" is a simulating decider. Therefore we > >> have one call to halts. It then emulates another call to halts. But the > >> second call to "halts" shouldn't appear on the execution trace. It's > >> emulated. > >> > >> So exactly what the decider is doing remains a bit opaque. > > > > I've tried to get Olcott to clarify exactly what he means by > > 'emulate'/'simulate' but to no avail. I'm fairly sure he doesn't mean > > what the rest of the world means, but I still am unclear about what he > > actually means. > > > > André > > > Sure everyone knows that an x86 emulator can be anything from a vanilla > milkshake machine to a dump truck. What I mean by x86 emulator is > software that executes x86 machine language as if this software virtual > machine was an actual x86 processor. > What I understand by an emulator is something which spins up a virtual enviornment - a struct containing registers, an area of memory, and maybe other bits and bats. Then the core of the program is a switch on the opcode pointed to by the instruction pointer. It then manipulates the virtual environment in the same way as a real machine. So if we see "call 0x12345678" we don't make a jump to address 12345678. Instead we go to the switch case that handles "call". This will push the virtual instruction pointer on to a stack, and set it to "12345678". Then on the next pass the virtual instruction pointer is "12345678" and we load the instruction at that address and switch on the opcode. So the emulator doesn't actually make a subroutine call. Of course you can create emulations of emulations using this system, to any depth you like until you run out of emeory. But the emulator is simply going round in an instruction fetch / decode / execute loop.
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Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 10:19 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 08:25 -0700
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 10:32 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 11:56 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 11:19 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 18:28 +0200
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 11:51 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 19:18 +0200
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 12:19 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 19:33 +0200
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 19:10 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 13:49 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 14:29 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 17:25 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 11:49 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 14:17 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 14:08 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 15:43 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 15:37 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 17:58 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 17:20 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 18:55 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-03 23:57 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 18:13 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 19:04 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 18:34 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 20:06 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 19:26 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 21:21 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 20:41 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 22:13 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 21:22 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 23:24 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 22:32 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 06:40 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 09:24 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 14:50 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 19:14 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 20:38 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 22:14 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 22:18 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 23:18 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-04 00:50 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 09:15 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-04 10:31 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:07 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-04 11:24 -0700
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-04 13:00 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 15:09 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-04 13:30 -0700
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:23 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 07:18 -0700
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:31 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:10 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 10:18 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:29 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:53 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 12:13 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-04 14:55 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) "dklei...@gmail.com" <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2021-07-04 18:03 -0700
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 20:42 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 22:31 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 08:05 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:40 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:13 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-04 23:20 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-07-05 18:49 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-05 15:17 -0600
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 17:38 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 23:52 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 10:36 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:51 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:36 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:18 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:11 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 15:02 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 21:20 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 16:21 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 01:23 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 19:30 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 17:46 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 12:00 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-05 02:04 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 20:57 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-05 03:14 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 21:28 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 22:33 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 22:09 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 07:33 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:38 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 10:57 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:59 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:34 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 13:16 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 12:48 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 14:36 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:18 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-05 23:58 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 19:54 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 21:29 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-06 03:35 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 22:30 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 06:47 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 04:15 -0700
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-06 13:23 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 07:21 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ halting criteria ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:26 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ halting criteria ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 10:50 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ halting criteria ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:56 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 10:30 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:33 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:02 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] (correction) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:35 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] (correction) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:38 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] (correction) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 12:10 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] (correction) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 13:43 -0400
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Richard's excellent summation ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 19:12 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 11:01 -0700
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 13:15 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 21:09 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 16:06 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 01:44 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 19:59 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-04 02:34 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 20:46 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 17:45 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 19:15 +0100
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 13:58 -0500
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 22:37 -0700
Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 14:14 +0100
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