Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ]

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.theory
Subject	Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ]
Date	2021-07-04 17:45 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87a6n2c9kg.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <tbqdnfqAodu7NH39nZ2dnUU7-IvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o8bjdur3.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <r-GdnXHIlvPzTH39nZ2dnUU7-KXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgv2di12.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <mf6dncTDN5-YlXz9nZ2dnUU7-Y3NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 7/3/2021 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>> 
>>> In the halting problem there exists TM/input pairs such that TM X
>>> cannot return the correct halt status to input I.
>> That's badly worded but you have the gist of it.  No TM computes the
>> halting function because, for every TM, there is an infinity of inputs
>> which are incorrectly accepted or rejected by that TM.
>> Could you move on now?

I must conclude that you accept that no TM computes the halting
function.  It would be intellectual cowardice of the first order to pass
over this point if you did not agree.

> When we ask H what return value to P is the correct halt status of
> P(P) neither true nor false are the correct return value.

The halting problem is not defined relative to any one failed partial
decider.  For H(P,P) to be correct one of

  H(P,P) == 0 and P(P) does not halt, or
  H(P,P) != 0 and P(P) halts

must be the case.

Repeat after me: every instance of the halting problem has a correct
yes/no answer.  The correct answer is yes for those instances that
represent halting computations and false otherwise.

The fact that P(P) halts because H(P,P) == 0 does make 0 the correct
answer.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 10:19 -0500
  Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 08:25 -0700
    Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 10:32 -0500
      Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 11:56 -0400
        Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 11:19 -0500
          Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 18:28 +0200
            Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 11:51 -0500
              Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 19:18 +0200
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 12:19 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 19:33 +0200
          Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 19:10 +0100
            Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 13:49 -0500
          Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 14:29 -0400
  Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 17:25 +0100
    Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 11:49 -0500
      Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 14:17 -0400
        Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 14:08 -0500
          Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 15:43 -0400
            Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 15:37 -0500
              Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 17:58 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 17:20 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 18:55 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-03 23:57 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 18:13 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 19:04 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 18:34 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 20:06 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 19:26 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 21:21 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 20:41 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 22:13 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 21:22 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-03 23:24 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 22:32 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 06:40 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 09:24 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ prerequisites to understanding me] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 14:50 -0400
              Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 19:14 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 20:38 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 22:14 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 22:18 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 23:18 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-04 00:50 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 09:15 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-04 10:31 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:07 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-04 11:24 -0700
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-04 13:00 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 15:09 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-04 13:30 -0700
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:23 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 07:18 -0700
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:31 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:10 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 10:18 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:29 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:53 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 12:13 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-04 14:55 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) "dklei...@gmail.com" <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2021-07-04 18:03 -0700
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 20:42 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 22:31 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 08:05 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:40 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:13 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-04 23:20 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-07-05 18:49 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-05 15:17 -0600
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 17:38 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 23:52 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 10:36 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:51 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:36 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:18 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:11 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Why can H ignore its own behavior? ](my thanks to Richard) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 15:02 -0400
      Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 21:20 +0100
        Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 16:21 -0500
          Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 01:23 +0100
            Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 19:30 -0500
              Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 17:46 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 12:00 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-05 02:04 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 20:57 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-05 03:14 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 21:28 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-04 22:33 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-04 22:09 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 07:33 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:38 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 10:57 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:59 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:34 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 13:16 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 12:48 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 14:36 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:18 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-05 23:58 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 19:54 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 21:29 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-06 03:35 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 22:30 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-06 06:47 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-06 04:15 -0700
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-06 13:23 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 07:21 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ halting criteria ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:26 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ halting criteria ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 10:50 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ halting criteria ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:56 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 10:30 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:33 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 11:02 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] (correction) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 09:35 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] (correction) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 12:38 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] (correction) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 12:10 -0500
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ already agreed ] (correction) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-05 13:43 -0400
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ Richard's excellent summation ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 19:12 -0500
  Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 11:01 -0700
    Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 13:15 -0500
      Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 21:09 +0100
        Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 16:06 -0500
          Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 01:44 +0100
            Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 19:59 -0500
              Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-04 02:34 +0100
                Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 20:46 -0500
              Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? [ incorrect question ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 17:45 +0100
    Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-03 19:15 +0100
      Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-03 13:58 -0500
    Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 22:37 -0700
      Re: Could H correctly decide that P never halts? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-04 14:14 +0100

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